Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-04-13

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

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00:13 samcv AlexDaniel, :)
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00:14 AlexDaniel samcv: hello? :)
00:15 samcv <AlexDaniel> samcv: these are called hands :)
00:15 AlexDaniel ah… wow
00:15 samcv i see your neural implants are working
00:16 AlexDaniel ZofBot: do you have any neural implants? What about hands?
00:17 AlexDaniel :|
00:17 AlexDaniel ok, I won't bring this up again…
00:18 samcv sore topic for zofbot i'm sure
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01:48 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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02:39 TreyHarris What _is_ utf8-c8, anyway? I couldn't find a definition of it and the only places it seems to be used (by that exact name anyway) are in Perl 6-related contexts
02:40 geekosaur one of several hacks for round-tripping non-utf8 data (e.g. filenames on the filesystem, which are not guaranteed to be utf8 on posix)
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02:41 TreyHarris geekosaur: what does the "c8" refer to?
02:44 [Coke] 8bit c strings, mebbe
02:45 * geekosaur doesn't recall the origin. probably need jnthn
02:46 geekosaur or try to search the list archives
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02:47 TreyHarris geekosaur: tried but that was a rabbit hole, the first reference was after it was already in the code
02:48 TreyHarris doesn't matter, i was just curious
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03:03 TreyHarris m: HyperWhatever.new.^methods
03:03 camelia rakudo-moar c13480: ( no output )
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03:04 TreyHarris m: say HyperWhatever.new.^methods
03:04 camelia rakudo-moar c13480: OUTPUT: «(<anon> <anon> soft <anon> <anon> yada perl <anon> <anon> <anon> onlystar candidates unwrap wrap <anon> multi package leave <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> cando fire_if_phasers add_phaser has-phaser phasers WHY set_why perl of po…»
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03:47 Zoffix m: sub {}.^methods.say
03:47 camelia rakudo-moar c13480: OUTPUT: «(<anon> <anon> soft <anon> <anon> yada perl <anon> <anon> <anon> onlystar candidates unwrap wrap <anon> multi package leave <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> <anon> cando fire_if_phasers add_phaser has-phaser phasers WHY set_why perl of po…»
03:47 Zoffix It's just this sub it returns: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/c13480c/src/core/Whatever.pm#L15
03:48 Zoffix m: say (** + 2)(1..10)
03:48 camelia rakudo-moar c13480: OUTPUT: «(3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12)␤»
03:49 Zoffix There's a bit of a glitch where HyperWhatever.new gets interepreted as ** hyper whatever instead of throwing like it was meant to
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04:19 samcv TreyHarris, it is utf-8 clean 8
04:19 samcv the c8 means clean 8
04:19 samcv because it retains all data and does not discard invalid or improper sequences
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05:17 Geth ¦ ecosystem: d690e3a1da | (David Warring)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
05:17 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Add Native::Packing
05:17 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
05:17 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Structured reading and writing of numeric binary data
05:17 Geth ¦ ecosystem: https://github.com/p6-pdf/perl6-Native-Packing
05:17 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/d690e3a1da
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06:55 RabidGravy Is there something in the ecosystem that binds errno/strerror that I am missing?
06:58 RabidGravy I mean it's not particularly onerous to have to declare it in the code but, y'know, re-use
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08:03 u-ou how do I get a REPL after running a script?
08:05 masak you... don't?
08:05 masak your idea is to somehow still be in the lexical environment of the script, yes?
08:05 u-ou yeah
08:06 u-ou there are other languages that let you do it
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08:07 masak aye
08:07 masak not saying it's a bad idea or anything
08:07 masak but I'm not aware that Rakudo allows it
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08:07 u-ou ok
08:07 masak (or the underlying nqp compiler toolkit)
08:10 RabidGravy Boom! Boom!
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08:11 masak .u boom
08:11 yoleaux U+101E1 PHAISTOS DISC SIGN BOOMERANG [So] (𐇡)
08:12 u-ou is there a .WHAT for container type
08:13 RabidGravy VAR
08:13 RabidGravy ?
08:14 u-ou why is every answer another question on IRC >:P
08:15 RabidGravy *shrug*
08:16 masak I dunno, why? :P
08:16 masak u-ou: we're a curious bunch, so we ask questions ;)
08:21 u-ou :P
08:32 jnthn In a pinch, you can always stick `loop { EVAL prompt "> " }` at the end of the script :P
08:34 u-ou :)
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08:35 samcv heh
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08:52 Ulti need BASIC break style support where you capture ctrl+c and get a REPL at the current point of execution :) such security
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08:55 tokomer /j #programming
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08:58 masak m: loop { EVAL prompt "> " }
08:58 camelia rakudo-moar e0173b: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤EVAL is a very dangerous function!!! (use the MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL pragma to override this error,␤but only if you're VERY sure your data contains no injection attacks)␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3loop { EVAL …»
08:58 masak thought so
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09:14 dalek Net-ZMQ: 978adfa | RabidGravy++ | lib/Net/ZMQ/Pollitem.pm:
09:14 dalek Net-ZMQ: fix typeconstraint 'as'
09:14 dalek Net-ZMQ: review: https://github.com/arnsholt/Net-ZMQ/commit/978adfa3f2
09:14 dalek Net-ZMQ: 11006ea | RabidGravy++ | .gitignore:
09:14 dalek Net-ZMQ: add precomp to gitignore
09:14 yoleaux 19 Mar 2017 14:59Z <AlexDaniel> dalek: ahoi, please update that repo to use geth instead: Change the webhook to https://geth.perl6.party/?chan=#perl6-dev (or #moarvm for moarvm), Content-type: application/json and "Send me everything."
09:16 RabidGravy yeah there were a lot of commits on that PR :-\
09:19 timotimo i'm not sure Net-ZMQ should keep reporting here
09:26 RabidGravy timotimo++ cheers for that, it was kind of blocking one of my plans for world domination
09:27 timotimo yeah, github notifications are pretty much 100% useless for me at the moment :<
09:27 timotimo 18.5k unread mails in my github folder, too
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10:23 Geth ¦ doc: Gnouc++ created pull request #1281: doc/Type: correct List definition
10:23 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1281
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11:22 Geth ¦ doc: 60dbcb834f | (Cuong Manh Le)++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | doc/Type/List.pod6
11:22 Geth ¦ doc: doc/Type: correct List definition (#1281)
11:22 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/60dbcb834f
11:23 RabidGravy valgrind still really unhappy with Net::ZMQ
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11:30 Geth ¦ doc: 4c3d62b340 | dmaestro++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | doc/Language/operators.pod6
11:30 Geth ¦ doc: Document the infix method call operators (#1273)
11:30 Geth ¦ doc:
11:30 Geth ¦ doc: This documents the behavior implemented in:
11:30 Geth ¦ doc:     https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/cb25b2f475f31335d77d018474482aceec2c74de
11:30 Geth ¦ doc: and
11:30 Geth ¦ doc:     https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/be141b8d9bddc9798db6f11f70cdb117b7309526
11:30 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4c3d62b340
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11:35 Swinebead Hello
11:35 Swinebead Say 3
11:36 Swinebead 'p6: say 3;'
11:36 RabidGravy m: say 3
11:36 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «3␤»
11:36 Swinebead p6: say 3;
11:36 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «3␤»
11:37 Swinebead Nice
11:37 Swinebead Is perl 6 released yet
11:37 moritz yes!
11:38 Swinebead I was looking at it today it looks awesome
11:38 masak it's released
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11:38 Swinebead I've not had to code for several years but learned perl 5 and now perl6 is out
11:38 Swinebead It all looks straightforward except for the parallel stuff
11:39 masak (I always thought "released"/"not released" was a funny distinction to use for an open-source project, but there you go... people seem to think that way)
11:39 Swinebead Where's a good place to understand? The docs confused me a bit
11:39 masak there are books on the way
11:39 masak this channel is a pretty great place to learn
11:39 moritz I'm biased, but I like https://leanpub.com/perl6 :-)
11:40 Swinebead Ok cheers
11:40 moritz (pro tip: buy it today, tomorrow you can't buy it anymore because a publisher takes over)
11:41 Swinebead I'll check out perl 6 tomorrow... (It's night time here now)
11:42 Swinebead It looks like they changed cpan to zef or something ?
11:44 RabidGravy the module installer is different
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13:03 AlexDaniel m: my Int @a = 1, 2; say @a[0 | 1]
13:03 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(1, 2)␤»
13:03 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 1, 2; say @a[0 | 1]
13:03 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(1, 2)␤»
13:03 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 1, 2; say @a[-1 | 1]
13:03 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(2, 2)␤»
13:04 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[-1 | 1]
13:04 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(67, 83)␤»
13:04 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[-2 | 1]
13:04 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(29, 83)␤»
13:04 AlexDaniel .oO( python mode? )
13:06 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[3 | 1]
13:06 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(67, 83)␤»
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13:06 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[4 | 1]
13:06 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «any(0, 83)␤»
13:06 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[30]
13:06 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «0␤»
13:06 AlexDaniel oh
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13:07 AlexDaniel m: my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[-1]
13:07 camelia rakudo-moar e7e47b: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unsupported use of a negative -1 subscript to index from the end; in Perl 6 please use a function such as *-1␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my int @a = 45, 83, 29, 67; say @a[-1]7⏏5<EOL>␤»
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13:35 w4and0er96 ping
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13:44 moritz peng!
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14:09 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 1188064bf0 | (Julien Simonet)++ | META.list
14:09 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Add Log::Any (See https://github.com/jsimonet/log-any)
14:09 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/1188064bf0
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15:37 bazzaar \o perl6
15:40 Ulti o/
15:43 bazzaar brilliant blog series by Oracle using matplotlib from perl6, with Inline::Python, in Part7 last coloured butterfly plot, found I needed to add .cache to $x,$y sequences to get it to work, couldn't find a way to add comment or send email
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15:46 bazzaar possible I'm doing something wrong, but anyway, that's all I wanted to report
15:49 timotimo hm, what version of perl6 are you running?
15:51 bazzaar timotimo: Rakudo version 2017.01 built on MoarVM version 2017.01 implementing Perl 6.c
15:52 timotimo okay, that's a little out of date, but it's probably the latest rakudo star you can get
15:52 Geth ¦ ecosystem: matiaslina++ created pull request #316: Add Matrix::Client to ecosystem
15:52 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/pull/316
15:52 timotimo perhaps it's not necessary in a newer version
15:53 bazzaar timotimo: been having issues with datetime.date too :-) , looking forward to upgrading to next rakudo star
15:54 timotimo aye, this upcoming release will come with a rakudo-star
15:54 timotimo until then, we actually just started building AppImages for rakudo and rakudo-star
15:55 timotimo https://samcv.github.io/rakudo-appimage/ - feel free to try 'em out
15:55 isBEKaml timotimo: Sorry, what are appimages? Docker? Digital Ocean?
15:57 timotimo neither of those
15:57 timotimo appimage is just chmod +x my.appimage; ./my.appimage
15:57 isBEKaml timotimo: Oh, okay. When are we doing the next Star release?
15:58 timotimo NeuralAnomaly: status
15:58 NeuralAnomaly timotimo, [✘] Next release will be in 1 day and 12 hours. Since last release, there are 24 new still-open tickets (0 unreviewed and 1 blockers) and 138 unreviewed commits. See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
15:58 isBEKaml \o/
15:58 timotimo i think zoffix wanted to delay it by a bit, i don't know if that is already in this date/time or not
15:59 isBEKaml I'm just trying out a star release. Someone reminded me that I left my packages go stale
16:00 isBEKaml s/left/let/
16:00 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 6618623dfa | (Matias Linares)++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | META.list
16:00 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Add Matrix::Client to ecosystem (#316)
16:00 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
16:00 Geth ¦ ecosystem: https://github.com/matiaslina/perl6-matrix-client/
16:00 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/6618623dfa
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16:02 timotimo oh, cool
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16:03 bazzaar timotimo: I like those AppImages, and the instruction how to run 'em, it'll give folk a way of seeing if an issue in their code is due to running an oldish perl6 implementation
16:03 timotimo yeah, should be good
16:04 timotimo also, currently travis jobs for checking modules will pull down moar, nqp, and rakudo, compile all of them, then install zef, and then it'll test the module
16:04 timotimo using an appimage that gets updated daily or more often will clearly be much better
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16:11 RabidGravy yeah, it takes ten times as long to build rakudo than it does most of the tests for my modules
16:12 Zoffix The bot reports normal time, and there's still the posibility it'll be delayed by 2 days. And that's the time for *compiler* release only. Rakudo Star was planned to be done in 2017.04 and with the RC releases the final release of it is usually 1-2 weeks after the compiler's release.
16:12 Zoffix So normal time is 3rd Saturday of the month, but this month it might be delayed by 2 days to be on Monday
16:13 timotimo thanks for the clarification
16:13 RabidGravy my tablet needed 36 apps updated
16:15 Zoffix And delay is due: squeezing all IO into the release. I'm gonna be done with all the functionality changes by normal release date, but the 2 day delay will let me squeeze in all the performance improvements as well; especially on Windows. If that stuff misses the release, regular users will only get it in July, when next-next Rakudo Star ships. So, I figured may as well delay this release by 2 days and ship it
16:15 Zoffix all in it
16:16 Zoffix NeuralAnomaly: status
16:16 NeuralAnomaly Zoffix, [✘] Next release will be in 1 day and 12 hours. Since last release, there are 24 new still-open tickets (0 unreviewed and 1 blockers) and 138 unreviewed commits. See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
16:16 Zoffix ^ and that's not a real blocker. It's just a reminder for me to throw out TAP.pm6 from core; the release bot won't proceed when there are blockers :)
16:16 Zoffix Well, back to the salt mines! \o
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16:17 isBEKaml Zoffix: go ahead, release untested software :-)
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16:21 Zoffix isBEKaml: it's the opposite actually :) A lot of stuff was untested; this release got at least 500 more tests and more coming. I also usually TDD, so no untested stuff from me in rakudo :)
16:22 bazzaar timotimo: Thanks for your help. (Perl, and now Perl6 in one working lifetime, how lucky is that!)
16:23 Zoffix 117 new commits to test suite, with 1,631 new lines of tests added this month: https://github.com/perl6/roast/pulse/monthly
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16:50 robertle ri';
16:52 robertle sorry, daughter commandeered my keyboard...
16:53 robertle it's a promising sign though that her otehrwise senseless input is properly terminated with a semicolon
16:53 perigrin she may be a C programmer!
16:54 huf eh, multibyte char values are implementation defined
16:54 huf bad bad juju
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17:56 masak today's mini-challenge: implement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox,_goose_and_bag_of_beans_puzzle as a program that takes an initial state, a goal state, allowed transitions and illegal states, and produces a shortest solution
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18:09 TimToady .oO(today's maxi-challenge: getting wikipedia to use Oxford comma...)
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18:52 masak heh.
18:52 masak I happen to like the Oxford comma, but I don't see why people feel they need to get all prescriptive about it
18:53 TimToady I didn't, I only thunk it.
18:55 masak if you did, I wonder if Slashdot would frontpage with "Larry Wall iterates through all of Wikipedia, painstakingly adding Oxford commas" :P
18:56 * masak .oO( originally known for rn, patch and Perl... ) :P
18:57 TimToady well, all we really need to do is fix is the texts that teach it wrong...
18:57 masak and then sit back and wait a generation or two
18:57 TimToady ss:2nd/is //
19:06 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 28ae3f00ad | (Sterling Hanenkamp)++ | META.list
19:06 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Hash::MultiValue now uses a META6.json
19:06 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/28ae3f00ad
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21:25 samcv NeuralAnomaly, status
21:25 NeuralAnomaly samcv, [✘] Next release will be in 1 day and 7 hours. Since last release, there are 25 new still-open tickets (1 unreviewed and 1 blockers) and 98 unreviewed commits. See http://perl6.fail/release/stats for details
21:29 timotimo + 2 days
21:29 samcv also is star coming out in a week
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21:30 timotimo at the very earliest, i believe?
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21:52 sammers hi all
21:54 AlexDaniel \o/
21:54 sammers m: sub foo($i){$i+10 };sub bar($i){$i+10};5.&foo.&bar.say;
21:54 camelia rakudo-moar fbc669: OUTPUT: «25␤»
21:55 sammers whenever I do the . notation chaining on subs I can't put the .bar on a newline...
21:55 sammers like we can with methods
21:55 timotimo yeah, only allowed when . is followed by alphanumeric
21:55 timotimo actually, alpha only
21:56 sammers thanks, that is mentioned here https://docs.perl6.org/routine/$FULL_STOP
21:58 sammers is there a technical reason for that? or is this some rational decision to not allow this?
21:58 timotimo still wanna catch people trying to use . for concat
22:00 sammers ok, so with .& that would look something like: 'string ' . &foo(123)
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22:20 ugexe you can end the line with \
22:21 ugexe "whatever"\ \n .&foo()
22:22 timotimo yeah
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23:32 sammers I wonder if it might make sense to have an exception for `.&`? I am most likely not considering all situations, but other than this, where else would .& or . & be attempted?  sub bar($b){$b}; say "first" . &bar("second"); # which should fail with Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings;
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23:34 AlexDaniel sammers: why put whitespace around . at all in this case?
23:35 sammers right, I wouldn't. that is the case they are trying to capture
23:35 sammers for p5 users when they use . for concat instead of ~
23:36 sammers for method chaining .n has to be followed by an alpha. but what about subs that need to be called with & or unicode names?
23:36 AlexDaniel m: sub bar($a, $b){ $a ~ $b}; say ‘first’\ .\ &bar(‘second’)
23:36 camelia rakudo-moar fbc669: OUTPUT: «firstsecond␤»
23:36 AlexDaniel m: sub bar($a, $b){ $a ~ $b}; say ‘first’\   .&bar(‘second’)
23:36 camelia rakudo-moar fbc669: OUTPUT: «firstsecond␤»
23:36 timotimo i'd +1 a flag that prevents those "you're a naughty p5 programmer, aren't you?" errors
23:36 AlexDaniel just use unspace instead
23:36 AlexDaniel timotimo: sometimes I feel like +1-ing a full removal of p5 errors
23:37 sammers ok, I know that we can use the unspace now, but, I am suggesting that there could be an exception for .&
23:37 sammers for chaining
23:37 AlexDaniel sammers: or at least the error message can be more awesome by suggesting unspace
23:37 timotimo do we also want an exception for .""?
23:37 timotimo well, have to spell it .""()
23:37 sammers just sub names
23:37 sammers so if there is a unicode sub name
23:40 sammers it would be nice to just chain methods / subs regardless. as long as they had valid sub / method names.
23:40 sammers without unspace
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23:43 timotimo it's a little dangerous that putting a .foo on the next line after something is highly sensitive to the presence or absence of a ;
23:43 timotimo if the user doesn't make it clear with indentation, it can be misleading
23:45 sammers "(1,2,3)\n.map(...)\\n.&bar(special => 'second')\n.grep(...)\\n&foo.say;"
23:45 sammers like this example, http://perl6intro.com/#_chaining
23:45 sammers if you use your own subs inbetween you have to unescape
23:45 sammers of you put the routines on a new line
23:48 TimToady re .&foo, you can always put .self.&foo if you hate unspace
23:49 timotimo m: say &unique
23:49 camelia rakudo-moar fbc669: OUTPUT: «sub unique (| is raw) { #`(Sub|60835656) ... }␤»
23:49 timotimo oh, didn't realize
23:49 timotimo so, here's something hilarious
23:49 sammers hmm
23:49 TimToady on the design decision to allow .foo on the next line, most of the time when you default to $_ it's in a very small context, a map or grep or small loop, which tends to work against the situation where you want a lot of newlines
23:50 TimToady so they don't overlap as much as you'd expect
23:50 timotimo trying to open a file with a really long name gives a funny result
23:50 timotimo aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa: name to
23:50 TimToady or to put it the other way, when you use a lot of newlines, you're unlikely to be defaulting methods to $_
23:50 timotimo dang, it didn't copy over
23:50 TimToady you're more likely to be using explicit vars in that case
23:51 timotimo 000003f0: 6161 6161 6161 3a20 6e61 6d65 2074 6f00  aaaaaa: name to.
23:51 timotimo 00000400: 1300 0000 000a 2020 696e 2062 6c6f 636b  ......  in block
23:51 timotimo it totally put a 00 byte there %)
23:52 sammers that makes sense, I like to use a lot of small subs and write them in a way that allows me to chain them. so it isn't that I am unable to chain them, it would just be "nice" to be able to chain them like any other method when I have to use .&.
23:55 timotimo char      *c_message = MVM_malloc(1024);
23:55 timotimo OH NO YOU DIDN'T :D :D :D
23:59 samcv hmm?

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