Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-07-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:29 Geth ¦ doc: a24b3fa998 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6
00:29 Geth ¦ doc: clarify phrasing
00:29 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a24b3fa998
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00:32 lookatme morning
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00:43 kybr https://gist.github.com/kybr/3577b4e69493ec7fda1b10101d6b4774 thoughts?
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01:00 lookatme I think it's ok.
01:01 timotimo i'm not sure what "a small Num" means
01:02 timotimo oooh
01:02 timotimo you were expecting a Rat every time
01:02 timotimo you might have to create all the parts as FatRat to make that work properly
01:03 timotimo rat will turn into num if the denominator overflows a 64bit int or something like that
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01:06 travis-ci Doc build passed. Will "Coke" Coleda 'clarify phrasing'
01:06 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252224839 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/29e7f545bb74...a24b3fa998fc
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01:07 timotimo kybr: does that help?
01:12 lookatme timotimo, Can you help me? This is a problem about **require** : https://gist.github.com/araraloren/ea1bf8d54e2251042c7f4c45f778fc43
01:14 Geth ¦ doc: db9bfdba9b | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | htmlify.p6
01:14 Geth ¦ doc: remove commented out code
01:14 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/db9bfdba9b
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01:22 timotimo m: say (require ::("foobar")).perl
01:22 camelia rakudo-moar 83e157: OUTPUT: «Could not find foobar at line 0 in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6␤    CompUnit::Repository::Absolut…»
01:22 timotimo ah
01:22 timotimo i expect we're not generating a call to .sink for require statements
01:22 timotimo that's why a failure is created, but just disappears into the ether
01:23 kybr timotimo: yes. thanks. i'll try using FatRat internal to the sub
01:25 timotimo kybr: FatRat is "infectious", so you probably only need to turn one of the things into a FatRat. just gotta be the right one :)
01:25 timotimo ideally the first one that'll be executed, precedence-wise
01:26 lookatme timotimo, But if no require, the line 11 ` @plugins.push(::($plugin.^name)::Compiler.new);` would be failed
01:27 timotimo m: require ::("omgwhat"); say ::("omgwhat").perl
01:27 camelia rakudo-moar 83e157: OUTPUT: «Could not find omgwhat at line 0 in:␤    /home/camelia/.perl6␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/site␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/vendor␤    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6␤    CompUnit::Repository::Absolu…»
01:27 timotimo oh, huh. so where'd the failure come from ...
01:28 lookatme https://github.com/araraloren/perl6-app-snippet/blob/master/lib/App/snippet/C.pm6#L5
01:29 lookatme This is the class/module I want import
01:29 timotimo i always get tripped up about how exactly you get something into your code with require only
01:30 lookatme rakudo report it can not find App::snippet::C::Compiler if missing require
01:33 timotimo yeah
01:33 timotimo let me clone all of this
01:36 timotimo actually i'm far past my bedtime >_<
01:40 timotimo huh, could it be that the plugins call actually returns the things loaded?
01:40 lookatme I think no way
01:41 lookatme wait me try
01:47 timotimo it totally is! \o/
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01:47 timotimo you may have to do something ugly like $plugin.WHO<Compiler>.new
01:47 lookatme timotimo, it can not get inner name of module
01:47 timotimo and printing the .perl of that says it's a App::snippet::C::App::snippet::C::Compiler.new
01:47 lookatme oh
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01:48 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:48 timotimo good night!
01:48 lookatme timotimo, seems like ok now, thanks
01:48 lookatme good night
01:48 timotimo YW
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02:32 lookatme Maybe there is a problem with require. Or there are something else I didn't know
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02:43 kybr is anyone using this: https://github.com/samgwise/Net-OSC
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03:34 Geth ¦ doc: 1df9aecb6b | (Samantha McVey)++ | doc/Type/Hash.pod6
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: Minor grammar change to Hash section
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1df9aecb6b
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: 35800ae146 | (Samantha McVey)++ | doc/Language/unicode_entry.pod6
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: Little update to ibus-daemon suggestion
03:34 Geth ¦ doc:
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: This change works a little better and the --desktop option can have
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: odd side effects.
03:34 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/35800ae146
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04:02 evanm Hi, I'm trying to figure out a strange error message when I have a sub-signature
04:03 evanm seems to have been brought up before here: https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=123116
04:03 evanm but I still see it with the latest rakudo
04:03 evanm p6: sub foo(&block (Int --> Bool)) { say "thanks" }; foo(sub (Int $x) { Bool($x) })
04:04 camelia rakudo-moar 83e157: OUTPUT: «Too few positionals passed to 'foo'; expected 1 argument but got 0 in sub-signature of parameter &block␤  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
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04:06 evanm The "Too few positionals passed" error message doesn't make any sense. Similar NativeCall functions work fine.
04:12 ugexe m: sub foo(&block:(Int)) { block(1) }; foo(sub (Int $x) { say "thank you" })
04:12 camelia rakudo-moar 83e157: OUTPUT: «thank you␤»
04:12 ugexe m: sub foo(&block:(Int --> Bool)) { block(1) }; foo(sub (Int $x --> Bool) { say "thank you" })
04:12 camelia rakudo-moar 83e157: OUTPUT: «thank you␤»
04:12 ugexe m: sub foo(&block:(Int --> Bool)) { block(1) }; foo(sub (Int $x) { say "thank you" })
04:13 camelia rakudo-moar 83e157: OUTPUT: «Constraint type check failed in binding to parameter '&block'; expected anonymous constraint to be met but got Sub (sub (Int $x) { #`(Sub...)␤  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
04:14 geekosaur that last is kinda a lousy error
04:14 geekosaur message
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04:20 evanm So I take it that this works if a colon is placed after &block
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04:24 travis-ci Doc build errored. Samantha McVey 'Little update to ibus-daemon suggestion
04:24 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252253789 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/db9bfdba9ba8...35800ae14690
04:24 travis-ci left #perl6
04:24 buggable [travis build above] ✓ All failures are due to timeout (1), missing build log (0), GitHub connectivity (0), or failed make test (0).
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05:04 Geth ¦ doc: 9a9465fe0d | (Samantha McVey)++ | doc/Type/List.pod6
05:04 Geth ¦ doc: Use routine roundrobin instead of sub roundrobin
05:04 Geth ¦ doc:
05:04 Geth ¦ doc: sub roundrobin doesn't match what we use anywhere else in the docs
05:04 Geth ¦ doc: or on the same page as well.
05:04 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9a9465fe0d
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05:21 Geth ¦ doc: 0b005062fb | (Samantha McVey)++ | 19 files
05:21 Geth ¦ doc: Replace occurances of =head2 sub with routine for consistency
05:21 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0b005062fb
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05:32 Geth ¦ doc: 1274f18751 | (Samantha McVey)++ | .travis.yml
05:32 Geth ¦ doc: Don't highlight Travis CI build to speed up build times
05:32 Geth ¦ doc:
05:32 Geth ¦ doc: Hopefully this will prevent the build from timing out and going
05:32 Geth ¦ doc: over the Travis max numbers of minutes.
05:32 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1274f18751
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05:54 travis-ci Doc build errored. Samantha McVey 'Use routine roundrobin instead of sub roundrobin
05:54 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252268288 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/35800ae14690...9a9465fe0d41
05:54 travis-ci left #perl6
05:55 buggable [travis build above] ✓ All failures are due to timeout (1), missing build log (0), GitHub connectivity (0), or failed make test (0).
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06:01 travis-ci Doc build failed. Samantha McVey 'Replace occurances of =head2 sub with routine for consistency'
06:01 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252270996 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/9a9465fe0d41...0b005062fb63
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06:01 buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually.
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06:07 travis-ci Doc build failed. Samantha McVey 'Don't highlight Travis CI build to speed up build times
06:07 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252272568 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/0b005062fb63...1274f18751bb
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06:07 buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually.
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06:31 samcv well i think it's *actually* failing but i have no clue why
06:31 samcv now that i set it to just to bigpage
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07:40 * lizmat clickbaits https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017/07/10/2017-28-rakudo-is-hot/
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07:57 * parv wonders (bit haugty) why do people need to make their life diffcult (http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6.users/2017/07/msg3988.html)?
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08:00 * lizmat wonders about that a lot
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11:37 araraloren evening
11:39 lizmat araraloren  o/
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13:15 pmurias what would be a good way to parse a signature in string form?
13:16 pmurias I want to parse something like 'Backtrace::Frame:D: --> Int' into something I can work on
13:22 robertle 444444
13:22 robertle sorry
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13:29 lizmat pmurias: in Perl 6 code?
13:29 lizmat perhaps split on ('::',':','-->',' ')  ??
13:30 lizmat multi-fixed string split is pretty fast
13:31 moritz $x where { $x ~~ / '::' .+ 'x' / }
13:31 pmurias lizmat: I can use NQP or nqp:: level ops if it's the best way
13:31 moritz valid signature too
13:31 lizmat pmurias: then you're outta luck on the multi-fixed string split
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13:38 pmurias I'm mostly concerned with parsing the signatures that we have in our core docs
13:38 araraloren parsing signature string ?
13:40 pmurias araraloren: in the docs we have 'Defined as method line(Backtrace::Frame:D: --> Int)'
13:40 pmurias araraloren: I want to make the stuff in the signature clickable
13:41 pmurias so that you can click on the subparts of signatures in my doc viewer: https://6docs.github.io/awesome-p6docs/type/Backtrace::Frame
13:41 araraloren oh, great idea
13:42 pmurias argh, broken link
13:45 araraloren maybe you can stole something from rakudo/nqp source code
13:45 araraloren or create your own grammar
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13:49 od1 hello people
13:50 araraloren hi od1
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13:58 pmurias araraloren: I played around with stealing parts of Rakudo's grammar but some stuff like default values require the whole thing
13:58 pmurias araraloren: I think I should either use the full one or fix up Perl6::Parser
14:00 araraloren hmm
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14:34 pmurias fixed link to my (early WIP) doc viewer: https://6docs.github.io/type/Backtrace::Frame
14:35 pmurias one that actually works: https://6docs.github.io
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14:37 Ven`` .u [^-']
14:37 yoleaux U+0027 APOSTROPHE [Po] (')
14:37 yoleaux U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS [Pd] (-)
14:37 yoleaux U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET [Ps] ([)
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14:54 ambs either I do not know how to fake a from e-mail address, or ezml is too intelligent.
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15:30 timotimo 163011   pmurias │ fixed link to my (early WIP) doc viewer: https://6docs.github.io/type/Backtrace::Frame
15:31 timotimo oops
15:31 timotimo that 404s :(
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15:39 ugexe for allowing commit-ids, tags, etc in git urls does it make sense to use # instead of @ as the uri / commit-id separator? e.g. `https://github.com/ugexe/zef.git#v0.1.15` instead of `https://github.com/ugexe/zef.git@v0.1.15`? I believe the later is not a valid uri
15:40 raschipi It's a valid url, but everything before the @ is a username
15:41 raschipi https://user:password@domain.name/path
15:42 ugexe can you have a user with no password / colon separator in a valid uri?
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15:43 perlpilot https://tools.ietf.org/html/std66#section-3.3
15:43 raschipi Yes, if the [:password] part is missing it's considered a user without password. Colon separator would be invalid in most servers but it's not forbidden in the URI.
15:44 perlpilot Read the last paragraph of section 3.3   :-)
15:45 ugexe oh i've read it a few times... I have a URI grammar in both Grammar::HTTP and Zef::Utils::URI. i just know i never thought about those cases enough to test
15:45 perlpilot and "@" is explicitly listed as one of the valid chars in a path segment.
15:47 ugexe i wonder where my grammar was getting caught up then
15:48 raschipi I see, the "authority segment" has to end at the first slash, that's what I was missing.
15:54 ugexe ah so @ can go in the path, but there doesn't appear to be any rules for handling it as anything other than a regular charater in the path
16:03 nicq20 When messing with slangs and the grammar, what does an action need to return for statement_control?
16:03 timotimo you usually don't return things from action methods
16:04 timotimo i expect you mean "make" instead of "return"?
16:04 nicq20 Oops, yes.
16:04 timotimo i guess you'll make some sort of qast node (or rather tree)
16:04 nicq20 New to slangs and stuff sorry.
16:05 nicq20 Something along the lines of a QAST::Op?
16:05 timotimo i'd have to look through Perl6/Actions.nqp
16:06 nicq20 Ok. I'm looking at this for reference: https://github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql/blob/master/lib/Slang/SQL.pm6
16:09 araraloren_ That codes already outdate
16:09 nicq20 That could be why I'm having trouble. (Possibly)
16:10 araraloren_ You can refer some other slang module
16:11 araraloren_ night
16:11 nicq20 See ya.
16:11 ugexe how is it outdated?
16:12 ugexe last I knew it worked
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16:13 ugexe tony-o: ^
16:24 nicq20 Anyone happen to know what this error means: `New type for Perl6::Grammar must have a matching representation (P6opaque vs Uninstantiable)`
16:29 nicq20 Huh, I can't even find this error in rakudo or nqp.
16:35 timotimo it's inside moarvm
16:35 timotimo you're trying to rebless something?
16:37 timotimo maybe you're passing something incompatible to the augment_slang (or whatever) method?
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16:51 TimToady yes, that slang code is outdated; nobody should be setting %*LANG any more except for compat with old versions
16:52 tony-o that's the only part of the slang that is outdated, i haven't looked up the new way to integrate the slang yet
16:52 yoleaux 10 Jun 2017 20:20Z <eveo> tony-o: tony-o/perl6-http-server-threaded and perl6/perl6-http-server-async appear to be the same module. Should one of them be removed from the ecosystem?
16:53 tony-o eveo: they're different modules.
16:53 TimToady nowadays you should just be able to say $*LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', SQL::Grammar, SQL::Actions) or so
16:53 TimToady for define_slang, you'd have to do your own mixins, but refine_slang will do the mixins for you
16:55 TimToady one can put both ways into their own try, so it works with both old and new rakudos
16:56 TimToady or however you say that grammatical-like
16:56 tony-o m: %*LANG.^methods.say;
16:56 camelia rakudo-moar 2eeb00: OUTPUT: «(DESTROY AT-POS AT-KEY defined handled Int Num Numeric Set SetHash Bag BagHash Mix MixHash mess sink self CALL-ME FALLBACK STORE new Bool Str gist perl exception backtrace AT-POS AT-KEY BIND-KEY ASSIGN-KEY STORE iterator sink unshift chrs gist BIND-POS N…»
16:56 tony-o hmm.. i wonder if my moar is broken
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16:57 TimToady %*LANG is still there, but mainly only to catch old usages and warn
16:57 TimToady eventually it will go away
16:57 tony-o oh oops
16:57 tony-o i'm on nom - maybe i'm broken
16:57 TimToady refine_slang is more recent than define_slang, so you might not have ityet
16:58 tony-o it finds the method for me, just complains about MRO
16:58 tony-o Incompatible MROs in P6opaque rebless for types
16:58 tony-o guess i should work on updating this sooner rather than later
16:59 timotimo might have to make your grammar and actions roles instead of classes?
17:00 tony-o they're both roles
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17:02 Zoffix tony-o: what's the actual code you're using?
17:02 Zoffix buggable: eco bioperl
17:03 buggable Zoffix, BioPerl6 'Collection of Bioinformatics classes, roles, and modules': https://github.com/cjfields/bioperl6
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17:03 Zoffix umm.. nope not it
17:03 tony-o https://gist.github.com/tony-o/a7958c3848233f61d1813db6bbb7e071#file-gistfile1-txt-L74
17:04 Zoffix tony-o: you're giving it your own grammar instead of having it mixed into main lang. Here: https://github.com/MattOates/BioInfo/blob/master/lib/BioInfo.pm6#L37-L39
17:04 tony-o with define_slang it get the error that ::Grammar needs to be uninstantiable or P6Opaque so that may be a clue
17:05 tony-o ah
17:05 Zoffix tony-o: oh wait
17:05 Zoffix tony-o: see you're using .refine_slang instead of define slang. I've not heard that one yet
17:06 TimToady I added it at tpc::na :)
17:06 Zoffix Ah
17:06 TimToady it's not heavily tested yet...
17:07 Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar;
17:07 camelia rakudo-moar 2eeb00: OUTPUT: «42␤»
17:07 Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, class {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar;
17:07 camelia rakudo-moar 2eeb00: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤An exception occurred while evaluating a BEGIN␤at <tmp>:1␤Exception details:␤  5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling ␤  Cannot find method 'specialize' on object of type Perl6::Metamodel::ClassH…»
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17:09 TimToady those have to be roles, yes
17:09 Zoffix Ah
17:09 Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang('MAIN', role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, role {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar;
17:09 camelia rakudo-moar 2eeb00: OUTPUT: «===SORRY!===␤Incompatible MROs in P6opaque rebless for types Perl6::Grammar and Perl6::Actions+{<anon|56403104>}␤»
17:10 TimToady hmm
17:10 Zoffix Ah, I see the bug
17:10 Zoffix It's trying to mix it into MAIN instead of MAIN-actions
17:10 TimToady ah, that'd do it :)
17:10 Zoffix I mean bind to
17:10 * Zoffix hackety hacks
17:10 * TimToady has not used it with actions yet
17:10 TimToady obviously...
17:11 TimToady tony-o: anyway, define_slang with your own mixin should work fine till that bubbles through
17:11 tony-o thanks TimToady and Zoffix - fixes to bring the slang up to date have been pushed
17:11 TimToady you'll want to mix in with what you pull out via $*LANG.grammar and $*.actions, iirc
17:12 TimToady er, $*LANG.grammar('MAIN') and $*LANG.actions.slang('MAIN') I should say
17:12 TimToady in lieu of reading from %*LANG
17:12 tony-o nicq20: Slang::SQL should be up to date now
17:13 TimToady all that boilerplate is why we have refine_slang now :)
17:13 tony-o TimToady: ++
17:13 nicq20-mobile Woo! Thanks
17:13 TimToady even if it doesn't quite work yet...
17:13 |oLa| joined #perl6
17:13 tony-o haha :-)
17:14 epony joined #perl6
17:15 cyphase joined #perl6
17:15 nicq20-mobile Are there any docs about the kind of stuff?
17:15 nicq20-mobile *this
17:15 TimToady not very; this is all the internals that we'll eventual build slang syntax with
17:16 TimToady *ly
17:16 tony-o next 'to-do' on that module is interpolating variables
17:16 cosimo joined #perl6
17:20 nicq20-mobile Ah, ok. Any chance there's something in QAST?
17:20 nicq20-mobile *on
17:20 nicq20-mobile Gee whiz this keyboard.
17:21 Zoffix nicq20-mobile: https://github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/docs/qast.markdown
17:21 Zoffix Not this is unofficial-we-can-change-it-any-time-we-want-without-warning-use-at-your-own-risk type of stuff
17:22 nicq20-mobile Well, it's better than my current knowledge.  :)
17:22 Zoffix Also...
17:23 Zoffix huggable: nqp course
17:23 huggable Zoffix, nothing found
17:23 Zoffix huggable: internals course
17:23 huggable Zoffix, nothing found
17:23 Zoffix you suck
17:23 nicq20-mobile This is how the robot uprising starts...
17:24 Zoffix huggable: internals course :is: Rakudo/NQP Internals Course: https://github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nqp-internals-course#rakudo-and-nqp-internals-workshop
17:24 huggable Zoffix, Added internals course as Rakudo/NQP Internals Course: https://github.com/edumentab/rakudo-and-nqp-internals-course#rakudo-and-nqp-internals-workshop
17:24 Zoffix Slightly outdated in places but gives you a general idea
17:24 Zoffix Compiler I built during the course: https://github.com/perl7/perl7/
17:27 nicq20-mobile Oh, cool! That will help a lot.
17:32 nicq20_mobile joined #perl6
17:33 espadrine joined #perl6
17:36 cyphase joined #perl6
17:51 Zoffix m: BEGIN $?LANG.refine_slang("MAIN", role { token apostrophe { <[ - ' \\ ]> } }, role {}); my $foo\bar = 42; say $foo\bar;
17:51 camelia rakudo-moar fe1a06: OUTPUT: «42␤»
17:51 pilne joined #perl6
17:51 Zoffix tony-o: ^ there. Fixed forever.
17:52 * Zoffix flies away into the sunset
17:52 Zoffix left #perl6
18:09 andrzejku joined #perl6
18:20 tony-o lmao
18:22 sherwool joined #perl6
18:34 nemo joined #perl6
18:34 nemo So. I was reading https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry
18:34 nemo "You may have issues using the compose key in all programs. the xim input method requires no extra installation, but it will not work with high codepoint values, such as emoji. "  ←  that's false
18:34 nemo you can absolutely put emoji into .XCompose - hell that's one of my main uses for it
18:34 cdg joined #perl6
18:35 nemo http://m8y.org/tmp/XCompose.txt  ←  a simple example
18:35 nemo https://github.com/kragen/xcompose/blob/master/dotXCompose  has no emoji, but you could easily extend it if for some reason you wanted to inflict those on your perl6
18:38 timotimo but xim isn't xcompose?
18:38 nemo timotimo: yesitis
18:39 geekosaur xcompose is the configuration file for xim
18:39 timotimo interesting
18:39 nemo so yeah. no idea who wrote that but is wildly off
18:39 nemo XCompose forever!!@!
18:40 geekosaur someone was testing in gtk, I bet
18:40 nemo is my fav 'cause it works everywhere and has a relatively easy config file ????
18:40 nemo geekosaur: that seems plausible
18:40 nemo that is. ignoring the xim part
18:40 geekosaur gtk apps have a cut-down xim implementation
18:40 nemo geekosaur: yep. that's why the section above has the override instructions
18:40 nemo geekosaur: gtk has this harcoded useless thing
18:40 geekosaur yep
18:40 nemo geekosaur: it isn't xim at all really
18:40 geekosaur but I suspect not everything honors the override
18:41 nemo geekosaur: ummm
18:41 nemo geekosaur: everything gtk does
18:41 nemo for qt apps not using a bridge would need the qt override
18:41 nemo but it is similar
18:41 nemo geekosaur: native X apps would not need the override
18:41 nemo geekosaur: you're going to have the exact same problem w/ uim tho
18:41 nemo anyway regardless that sentence is simply wrong
18:41 setty1 joined #perl6
18:43 geekosaur sadly, not *everything* gtk. I have certainly seen gtk programs that override (literally overwrite) your env config
18:43 FROGGS joined #perl6
18:43 geekosaur because gtk3/gnome devs know better than us little people
18:44 nemo geekosaur: huh. which program? so I may blacklist it?
18:44 zakharyas joined #perl6
18:45 nemo I already have a long blacklist that amounts to "everything written by Lennart Poettering"
18:45 nemo (well, on the gentoo machines - on ubuntu the fix will be devuan once EOL is reached on LTS)
18:46 mst nemo++
18:49 nemo mst: https://m8y.org/tmp/package_mask.txt  I don't take credit for it.  and tbh systemd bothers me way more than pulseaudio which is of more limited scope
18:49 nemo anyway. OT
18:55 raschipi Debian works fine without systemd. Devuan only use is to show people that dislike systemd have no idea what they're doing.
18:56 nemo raschipi: I have no interest in maintaining a distro myself. devuan is a convenience
18:56 hahainternet is Devuan even alive?
18:56 hahainternet every time i've seen it linked there's virtually no activity
18:57 nemo https://git.devuan.org/groups/devuan-packages/activity
18:57 hahainternet nemo: that's what i mean, that's very dead
18:58 nemo oh? seems active enough to me. there's not that much that needs to be done to change debian
18:58 nemo as raschipi noted
18:58 nemo hahainternet: just blacklisting and shims
18:58 nemo same reason gentoo works fine without it
18:59 raschipi "there's not that much". They are two years late in their releases and the most recent debian release was very big. reaally big.
18:59 hahainternet nemo: i can't say whether or not devuan works fine, but i don't see any evidence of actual use in any volume
18:59 hahainternet for example, there are many many open issues, many without comments, many from months ago
18:59 nemo plausible. but then. debian is already smaller than ubuntu so doesn't surprise me devuan would be even smaller
18:59 raschipi They won't be able to complete the GCC 7 migration at all.
19:00 raschipi Ubuntu is smaller than debian
19:00 nemo in terms of user base?
19:00 nemo that seems a little unlikely
19:01 hahainternet i think he means packages
19:01 hahainternet and i'm not sure, it's likely to be quite even
19:01 nemo hahainternet: packages not surprising since it is a derivative. all debian-based will be smaller
19:01 nemo and devuan is indeed quite tiny by that measure
19:02 hahainternet anyhow, there's (imo) very few non anti-poettering reasons for abandoning systemd
19:02 hahainternet and i have been a linux admin for more than half my life now :(
19:02 hahainternet afaik devuan have put absolutely zero compelling arguments forward
19:03 nemo http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd
19:03 raschipi I mean in relation to development effort
19:03 hahainternet nemo: this is just a link of links, few of which have any value
19:03 * nemo shrugs
19:03 nemo hahainternet: I anticipated that. but at least you can't say nothing was presented
19:04 nemo my very very fav rant, the more fundamental one, was http://wizardofbits.tumblr.com/post/45232318557/systemd-more-like-shit-stemd  plus was entertaining
19:04 nemo setting aside the stupid bugs and responses
19:04 nemo but again this is soooo OT
19:05 nemo I just came by to try and get that perl6 unicode page corrected ☺
19:05 hahainternet
19:05 hahainternet but this page is nonsense, it insists you should keep old init, because it 'monitors' processes, but it doesn't
19:05 hahainternet so the whole page is dead
19:05 nemo http://m8y.org/tmp/unicodesilliness.txt
19:05 hahainternet oh interesting, i use those graph characters to draw graphs
19:05 hahainternet on a different channel
19:05 nemo hahainternet: I'd say the heart of that page is... "YOU LOSE. YOU LOST WHEN YOU DECIDED THAT PID 1 SHOULD DO A LOT."
19:06 hahainternet nemo: but i don't lose, my systemd boxes are significantly more useful than my sysvinit boxes
19:06 nemo that's missing the point
19:06 nemo hahainternet: http://m8y.org/tmp/chess2.txt + http://m8y.org/tmp/temp3.txt
19:06 nemo hahainternet: we were playing games on IRC
19:07 hahainternet nemo: yeah i've done that too, won a chess game entirely done through irc :)
19:07 nemo hahainternet: sure. but maybe the board layout is new
19:08 hahainternet nemo: haha, nice PM, and i've read the page now and the only compelling argument is against d-bus
19:08 hahainternet but named pipes do not replace d-bus
19:08 hahainternet and d-bus will become a kernel mediated system bus
19:08 hahainternet which is an improved design
19:08 hahainternet so again the argument falls away
19:09 nemo ಠ_ಠ
19:09 nemo oh well whatever
19:09 nemo don't really care. choice right!
19:09 geekosaur no, actually, kdbus is a hack because userspace dbus is a steaming pipe
19:09 geekosaur *pile
19:09 nemo "you're entitled to your incorrect opinion" to use the standard internet line
19:09 hahainternet geekosaur: kdbus is long dead
19:09 hahainternet https://github.com/bus1
19:10 geekosaur so whgat is the new kernel mediated "hotness" to work around dbus being crap?
19:10 hahainternet 'work around'
19:10 hahainternet it provides a bus
19:10 hahainternet that is the point
19:10 geekosaur just keep trying to fix dbus by not fixing it, of course
19:10 hahainternet what?
19:10 geekosaur shove it into the kernel, we don;t need to fix our crap code
19:11 hahainternet what are you talking about geekosaur, bus1 is not dbus is not kdbus
19:11 hahainternet the concept of a kernel mediated system bus is a reasonable thing
19:11 lizmat .ask perlawhirl should this say True or False in your book: say <a b c>.Mix ⊄ <a b b c d>.Mix
19:11 yoleaux lizmat: I'll pass your message to perlawhirl.
19:11 nemo geekosaur: remember this one from last year ? https://www.agwa.name/blog/post/how_to_crash_systemd_in_one_tweet
19:12 geekosaur see, I think properly done system bus and properly done systemd would be good things. I just do not trust the current developers to program their way out of a wet paper bag, and they keep demonstrating they cannot be trusted to do so
19:12 hahainternet nobody can be trusted to do so
19:12 nemo I trust BSD folks more
19:12 hahainternet nobody writes bug-free code
19:12 geekosaur ...
19:13 hahainternet apple did not verify SSL certificates for significant amounts of time
19:13 hahainternet BSD has CVEs just like everyone else
19:13 geekosaur right, nobody is in any way shape or form competent so their incomptence is fully justified
19:13 hahainternet recently all Linux software was determined to be able to violate stack guard pages
19:13 nemo heh
19:13 hahainternet geekosaur: who do you trust to write good code?
19:13 nemo so because all software has some flaws therefore all software is equivalent in quality ☺
19:13 nemo I've heard that argument used in favour of C over Rust too
19:14 hahainternet that's not the argument i made, but hey
19:14 nemo can write bugs in rust, why try to improve verification?
19:14 hahainternet i agree verification should be improved
19:14 moritz 21:13 < hahainternet> geekosaur: who do you trust to write good code?
19:14 nemo 15:12 < nemo> I trust BSD folks more
19:14 nemo 15:13 < hahainternet> BSD has CVEs just like everyone else
19:14 hahainternet but you cannot trust any developer
19:14 moritz finally a question I can answer
19:14 moritz nobody!
19:14 nemo you went straight to an absolute
19:14 hahainternet hi moritz :)
19:14 geekosaur hahainternet, you just made that argument again
19:14 hahainternet nemo: because that's the reality
19:14 geekosaur so much for not making it
19:14 nemo ok. just saying. that was the argument you made
19:14 hahainternet no, i didn't, i'm not saying "you should trust all developers equally"
19:14 geekosaur nobody is operfect, therefore provably bad is good
19:15 nemo ????
19:15 hahainternet i am saying nobody is perfect, so the phrase "trust the current developers" is meaningless
19:15 hahainternet because you should trust no developers
19:15 nemo moritz: hey... can you fix that https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry.html  ?  That's why I came here
19:15 geekosaur ...
19:15 timotimo nemo: there ought to be a link to the github repo at the botto
19:15 timotimo m
19:15 geekosaur yes, trust is all or nothing, there is no such thing as some being more trustworthy than others
19:15 geekosaur never has been, never will be
19:15 timotimo so you don't have to rely on any dev to do it for you
19:16 hahainternet geekosaur: how do you measure trustworthy?
19:16 nemo timotimo: ah yes. "just issue a PR"
19:16 Triplefox trust is many dimensional
19:16 nemo and wait
19:16 nemo timotimo: all I want is 'he xim input method requires no extra installation, but it will not work with high codepoint values, such as emoji.'  deleted
19:16 nemo as wrong
19:16 hahainternet nemo: you can make pull requests specifically on github
19:16 hahainternet without having to do anything else
19:17 geekosaur hahainternet, for starters, does not release as a production version code that has not been tested. which poettering does continually, and red hat pushes into production and shoves down everyone's throat continuously
19:17 hahainternet geekosaur: what do you mean by 'has not been tested'?
19:18 geekosaur what is *wrong*  with you?
19:18 hahainternet afaik systemd doesn't even have the concept of 'production version'
19:18 moritz geekosaur, hahainternet: could you please move to channel where you discussion is more on topic? Thanks
19:18 moritz *to a channel
19:18 moritz grammar is hard
19:18 geekosaur I'm just dropping it because there is no discussion here
19:19 timotimo nemo: but the "requires no extra installation" part can stay?
19:19 xerx joined #perl6
19:19 geekosaur yes, it's built into X11
19:20 nemo timotimo: ↑
19:21 nemo timotimo: it's just that it reads awkwardly without the last part
19:21 nemo so might as well just drop the whole phrase
19:21 nemo samcv seems to be the one who added it. *shrug*
19:21 timotimo k
19:21 nemo https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0d4110870173259da9a4a104c9abf9d20321ac42
19:22 Geth ¦ doc: 580bb6a9a8 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | doc/Language/unicode_entry.pod6
19:22 Geth ¦ doc: remove counterfactual statement. nemo++
19:22 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/580bb6a9a8
19:22 timotimo how's that?
19:22 nemo thanks. my OCD is assuaged
19:23 nemo timotimo: also big fan of my gigantic .XCompose - works on almost everything, and I even have lil' perl script to use it with ctrl-a+v from tmux to replace the missing screen functionality
19:24 nemo timotimo: although frankly I'd be surprised ibus would ever work better than xim in terms of cross-framework support - but who knows. depending one's system, if ibus is already setup correctly, might be easier to use that
19:25 nemo there is an ibus-xim bridge I think
19:25 geekosaur ibus --xim
19:25 nemo ah. that simple. cool.
19:26 nemo geekosaur: but then if you're using that, why would emoji be an issue. so confused ☺
19:26 nemo anyway. fixed so moving on
19:27 nemo hahainternet: BTW. WRT those silly unicode snippets.  this one on the page was golfed to smallest size possible in bash with help of #bash
19:27 nemo hahainternet:
19:27 nemo for i in {0..63};{((i%16!=11&&i%16<14))&&C+=($((i+127137)));};n=52;for i in {1..5};{((x=RANDOM%n--,y=C[x],C[x]=C[n]));printf "\U`printf %x $y` ";}
19:27 nemo it actually draws a shuffled poker hand ☺
19:28 nemo my initial variant was much less terse
19:28 nemo s/shuffled/random/
19:48 cxreg anyone aware of an ongoing attempt to get rakudo running on wasm? (with or without moarvm)
19:51 * moritz not
19:52 kybr IO::Socket::Async does not allow setting the source port. can someone correct me if i'm wrong?
19:53 Cabanossi joined #perl6
19:53 cxreg moritz: I've been at nodesource for a while so I'm shoulder deep in libuv, v8, etc
19:53 travis-ci joined #perl6
19:53 travis-ci Doc build failed. Timo Paulssen 'remove counterfactual statement. nemo++'
19:53 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/252540300 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/1274f18751bb...580bb6a9a8c1
19:53 travis-ci left #perl6
19:53 buggable [travis build above] ☠ Did not recognize some failures. Check results manually.
19:54 cxreg moritz: thinking of giving something a whirl, just looking for a jumping off point
19:57 timotimo kybr: it appears you are correct
19:58 kybr does this go all the way down to nqp? moar?
20:02 moritz my own incoherent ramblings on the Perl 6 naming debate: https://perlgeek.de/blog-en/perl-6/2017-018-losing-named-and-orientation.html
20:02 moritz even with a typo in the URL. great.
20:03 kybr timotimo: thanks. i'm trying to do this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9873061/how-to-set-the-source-port-in-the-udp-socket-in-c
20:05 timotimo ah, for udp
20:06 timotimo we support it for neither tcp nor udp ;(
20:06 cxreg moritz: what ever happened to Camilia as a potential name?
20:07 [Coke] moritz++
20:09 moritz cxreg: I have no idea. I don't even know if anybody inside the Perl 6 community ever liked it, or seriously proposed it
20:09 [Coke] that never really had traction, I don't think.
20:09 moritz so far I've mostly heard that from p5 folks, and I feel free to ignore those suggestions
20:09 cxreg fair :)
20:13 ranguard moritz: "Two years ago, I didn't believe. Now you're reading a tired man's words.
20:14 ranguard p5 people have had that for many many many more years, so please don't just ignore them.. some of us are VERY tired
20:14 Zoffix joined #perl6
20:15 ranguard s/very tired/have given up/
20:15 moritz ranguard: I don't ignore people suggesting Perl 6 should rename. I ignore suggestions for specific names that come from outside the Perl 6 community
20:16 moritz and that seem to point to any possible name, regardless of its quality, just to have it not be called "Perl 6" anymore
20:16 cxreg what about naming it PERL :D
20:17 ranguard specific names, fair enough.. naming is hard :)
20:18 cxreg I still maintain btw that after spending a year deep in node.js adoption land, that the space is ripe for the taking
20:18 cxreg mindshare is hard :/
20:19 Zoffix moritz++ yey! You didn't waste my time with the post :) It's perfectly valid to not like "Rakudo Perl 6". As I've said, that name is not ideal due to exactly the reasons you stated, but it's probably the only one that could be forced into use by the "rebels" so to speak if there is no official stance on extending the name. My hope is a better extension can be made by people in power to change names.
20:20 [Coke] "extension" ?
20:20 Zoffix I would be perfectly fine with "Something Perl 6" where "Something" is selected entirely by TimToady and is officially declared to be so
20:21 moritz let's call it "Ruby Perl 6".
20:21 cxreg Mu
20:21 timotimo Perlinius 6
20:21 Zoffix [Coke]: some feel "Perl" branding is valuable, so the current proposal is not to "change" the name but to extend it with an extra word
20:22 Zoffix moritz: clearly it should be Ruby 3 Perl 6. Make it impossible for them to release the next major version :p
20:22 cxreg I think maybe that's mostly nostalgia and emotion on the part of the suggester, more than current reality.  imho.
20:23 [Coke] Zoffix: thank you for the clarification.
20:23 * Zoffix & shopping
20:23 [Coke] m: say "\c[ZERO WIDTH SPACE]Perl 6" # dad joke level?
20:23 camelia rakudo-moar 37250e: OUTPUT: «​Perl 6␤»
20:24 tbrowder Turbo Perl 6
20:25 tbrowder Mod Perl 6
20:25 * zengargoyle sorry to have missed the Input Method bashing, ibus vs xim vs uim is a total PITA for me...  must read some of nemo++ links.
20:27 zengargoyle between input methods and fonts and HiDPI display i'm sorta in a only half way works as much as it used to point in life. :/
20:28 timotimo .o( camelious )
20:29 cxreg zengargoyle: ibus -> ibis -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mO-OpFjHRbE
20:29 raschipi Royal Perl6
20:31 zengargoyle cxreg: arrrghh me has PTSD about birds. :)
20:33 El_Che I think what Zoffix's post proofs is that the naming discussion wasn"t settled with a weak compromise (one that no one was really happy with) as many hoped and that the discussion will come back from time to time
20:34 El_Che whatver the course, I would prefer not see see aninomisity between perl5 and 6 people
20:36 zengargoyle gokuraku -- sorta same roots.  (1) (Buddh) Sukhavati (Amitabha's Pure Land)/(2) paradise/(P)/  'tis the thing you say when slipping into a nice hot bath.
20:37 * zengargoyle tends more to the just call it p6.
20:37 raiph joined #perl6
20:39 Zoffix Why not Z9?
20:39 Triplefox Java Perl 6...now for jvm
20:40 zengargoyle r4o
20:40 El_Che maybe the relation with ruby and elixir could be an example?
20:40 zengargoyle .... r5o
20:40 zengargoyle urlang
20:41 pierre__ joined #perl6
20:43 zengargoyle glot -- if we go back to the idea of slangs and univerality.
20:44 Zoffix meh
20:44 El_Che The Perls could be too close to C and C++ (where the naming suggest an enhancement but many people don't agree)
20:45 * zengargoyle has an unnatural desire for mixing languages like Inline::* on steroids.  one sub in p6, one in forth, one in prolog, etc.
20:45 raiph I already know Zoffix's objection to what I suggested but does anyone else object?
20:45 El_Che zengargoyle: you hate your fellow programmers :)
20:46 Zoffix Even I'm unsure what you suggested.... "P6"?
20:46 Zoffix So it'd be "P6 Perl 6"?
20:46 zengargoyle i see a close relation between p5 and p6, maybe it's just coming from a really distant point of view.
20:46 raiph No. One would choose P6 or Perl 6 depending on whether or not you wish to emphasize "Perl"
20:46 El_Che What about Pisces?
20:47 El_Che P.+6
20:47 lizmat .oO( fishy )
20:47 [Coke] El_Che: .... sounds fishy
20:47 Zoffix Interesting, I see no relation between Perl 5 and Perl 6. Hell, even the sigils are different
20:47 [Coke] TOO SLOW!
20:47 El_Che even the greek char looks like abutterfly
20:47 El_Che
20:48 zengargoyle in the infinite dimensional space, all languages are the same.  for me, p5 and p6 share some very similar shadows.
20:48 Zoffix heh
20:48 Zoffix :)
20:48 * Zoffix &
20:48 Zoffix left #perl6
20:49 El_Che Zoffix6
20:51 zengargoyle like choosing different axioms but arriving at the same spaces of what can be proven and what can't.  different incompletes that are close shadows to each other. :)
20:51 * zengargoyle thinks *gah* the same peeps thought up both of them...
20:52 timotimo zof6?
20:55 greppable6 joined #perl6
20:56 * zengargoyle also wonders if anybody else follows Marpa...
21:00 TimToady joined #perl6
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21:13 [Coke] I'm see blog posts every so often, but it seems like a purely academic thing to me. (says the Perl 6 person)
21:16 evanm joined #perl6
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21:23 evanm Hi, I have a question about the new await behavior described here: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1004
21:26 evanm My understanding is that if "await" is called by a managed (non-main) thread, the call to "await" may return from a different OS thread
21:26 evanm This appears to  be the case from my tests, however it also appears that $*THREAD is not properly updated
21:27 evanm So for instance I have two threads running concurrently (post-await) that are reporting the same thread ID
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21:28 evanm Has anyone run into this issue? Or is $*THREAD.id behaving as expected, but my expectations are wrong?
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21:49 Zoffix evanm: no idea about the answer. But if you don't get it today, try asking again on Thursday. Our resident expert who'd know the answer for that question is currently on vacation :)
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21:51 lizmat evanm: that sounds like  bug
21:51 lizmat if you can golf it, submitting a rakudobug would be appreciated
21:55 timotimo we do have something that makes sure dynamic variables from where you called start will stick around for the inside of the start block
21:55 timotimo maybe it accidentally keeps the $*THREAD around from where the start was called originally
21:55 timotimo i haven't looked at the mechanism that does it, i just remember the commit message scroll past
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21:57 lizmat ah, that could very well be the reason  :-)
22:03 evanm Thanks. I'll go ahead and file a bug report. What's the vacationing expert's irc handle, so I can make sure it gets attention?
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22:11 zengargoyle evanm: i'd guess jnthn for almost anything dealing with await and threads and concurrency in general.
22:12 evanm timotimo: If you happen to have the commit message handy, I'll include it in the report as a possible lead
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22:17 lizmat evanm: pretty sure the commit message is not very useful, as that would apply to all dynamic variables
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22:18 lizmat whereas the stickiness of $*THREAD when continuing on a different thread is just a side-effect for *that* particular dynamic variable
22:18 lizmat it wouldn't matter for any other dynamic variable, unless it has some dependency on the thread ID
22:19 lizmat but none come to mind right now
22:21 timotimo i found it
22:21 timotimo the message is "Code in start blocks see dynamics of starter"
22:22 timotimo bedf2a7073042c79b886aec9e39ad8be4b0af498
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22:28 nicq201 What does the '{}' mean in `token comment:sym<#> { '#' {} \N* }` from Grammar.nqp?
22:28 evanm Thanks... my juicy bug report is almost ready.
22:29 timotimo it terminates the declarative prefix of the token
22:30 timotimo since after a # anything is valid, this rule would win over anything else that starts with #, like for example #`( foo )
22:31 nicq201 So how does #`(foo) get called then? Wouldn't it just be taken by '#'?
22:33 timotimo nope
22:33 timotimo it's defined something like #`<opener> {} or something
22:33 timotimo with LTM (what you get when you use | or protoregex) the longest token matched wins
22:34 timotimo but only the declarative prefix counts
22:34 nicq201 What exactly is a 'declarative prefix'?
22:34 timotimo it's anything from the beginning to the first thing that can't be parsed declaratively (think of it as "parsed by a NFA")
22:34 timotimo anything that's a traditional, "mathematical" regular expression
22:35 timotimo no backreferences, no lookarounds, no arbitrary code blocks
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22:38 nicq201 Ok. So between / '#' / and / [ '#' ** 2..3 ] / The first would be the one that would be called?
22:39 nicq201 (Kind of a poor example, but best I could come up with).
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22:42 timotimo well, if you have #` there, ## can't even match at all
22:42 nicq201 Better example: between `/ '#' {} \N*/` and `/ '##' {} \N*/`, the second would be called given "###Hello"
22:42 timotimo that'? right
22:42 timotimo sorry
22:42 timotimo that's right
22:43 nicq201 And the reason for choosing the second one is because more of the regex exactly matches.
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22:44 timotimo "exactly" is a strange word for this
22:45 timotimo if you have / . {} .* / and / .. {} .* /, the second one also wins
22:45 timotimo it's not about whether a match is exact, like a literal vs a character class, or something like that
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22:54 nicq201 Hmm... I having some trouble understanding how some of this works. :/
22:55 nicq201 Is there a doc on this so that I don't need to bother you?
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23:00 zengargoyle lizmat: thanks for PackUnpack info, looks like it will replace my 'use experimental :pack;' and make some things a bit easier at least until some more official-ish p6-way thing turns up.
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23:18 nicq201 tony-o: Ar you still online?
23:18 nicq201 *are
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23:23 timotimo nicq201: well, the old spec docs are rather exhaustive, but partially obsolete
23:24 timotimo S05:1
23:24 synopsebot6 Link: http://design.perl6.org/S05.html#line_1
23:24 nicq201 timotimo: Yeah, I don't really check them for info anymore. :/
23:29 mcmillhj joined #perl6
23:31 nicq201 Well,  the reason I ask was because I was trying to emulate Smart::Comments from P5, and thought it could be a useful way of learning how to make Slangs.
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23:33 nicq201 https://github.com/nicqrocks/perl6-smart-comments if you want to take a look.
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23:34 timotimo that's cool
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23:42 MasterDuke nicq20: i don't know anything about slangs, but is this relevant? https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-07-11#i_14856952
23:48 ugexe you can now use git revisions in git uris. both as META6.json "source-url" : "https://github.com/ugexe/zef.git@v0.1.23" or `zef -v install https://github.com/ugexe/zef.git@v0.1.23`
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