Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-08-11

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:29 Phraeyll i'm not able to create a udp socket with :broadcast set
00:30 Phraeyll attempting this: my $socket = IO::Socket::Async.udp(:broadcast);
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00:49 lookatme morning
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01:51 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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02:34 DBeepBeep Have macros been implemented yet?
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02:35 Geth ¦ whateverable/master: 4 commits pushed by (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++
02:35 Geth ¦ whateverable/master: 854b6cd64e | Add debug:* targets
02:35 Geth ¦ whateverable/master: e5972290a5 | Turn RAKUDO into a non-constant
02:35 Geth ¦ whateverable/master: 9c5a7e5811 | Make sure to gist stuff
02:35 Geth ¦ whateverable/master: 99d3498040 | Allow some dev env vars
02:35 Geth ¦ whateverable/master: review: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/compare/025c05081a...99d3498040
02:36 AlexDaniel DBeepBeep: no
02:36 AlexDaniel DBeepBeep: but what problem are you trying to solve? Maybe there's a way to do it without macros
02:36 DBeepBeep There isn't
02:36 DBeepBeep I'll just use common lisp for now
02:36 AlexDaniel :)
02:37 DBeepBeep Thanks anyways
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02:43 DBeepBeep ;/part
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02:49 dorothyw I had thought there were macros in perl6 but they were called slangs
02:49 dorothyw because apparently a macro is a very specific sort of way to add syntax.
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03:09 dorothyw based on this it seems macros do exist in perl6 https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/day-23-macros/
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03:13 lookatme yeah, IDK is slang is a kind if macro
03:13 lookatme s/if/of/
03:16 dorothyw AFAIK actual macros are supported
03:17 dorothyw You just have to treat perl6 macros very gingerly by the sound of it
03:17 mst I believe that while there is a macro facility in core it's not an officially-for-use thing because it's not a finalised design
03:18 lookatme dorothyw, Perl 6 of course has macro, I found that in test suite
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03:19 mst slangs OTOH are a way to sort of lexically subclass the parser
03:19 lookatme but there has no document about macro
03:19 mst generally internal-use-only features don't get documented, no
03:19 lookatme and I have read some slang example, there are not similar with macro for me
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03:23 ipatrol what is this unsigiled "lines" variable I keep seeing in places?
03:28 lookatme you mean the sigilless variable ?
03:28 lookatme https://docs.perl6.org/language/variables#Sigilless_variables
03:31 ipatrol lookatme: is that how `lines` is created?
03:32 ipatrol see https://github.com/dnmfarrell/Perl6-One-Liners#tutorial for an example
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03:33 lookatme ipatrol, it is not create container as document said, the different with sigil variable is it not enforce context
03:33 ipatrol lookatme: but what is `lines` then?
03:34 lookatme ipatrol, no
03:34 lookatme there is just a sub
03:34 lookatme It's no a variable
03:35 lookatme https://docs.perl6.org/routine/lines
03:36 lookatme without argument, it will operator on $*ARGFILES
03:36 ipatrol lookatme: oh I see
03:36 lookatme Hmm
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07:47 * stmuk hopes brrt gets streamed
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08:23 zengargoyle .botsnack
08:23 synopsebot6 om nom nom
08:23 yoleaux :D
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08:28 lookatme :P
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08:51 * zengargoyle trying to catch up on internet things during the next few hours when DSL works.  AT&T is either dense, or just stalling for time.  by now, i know it gets better around midnight, goes belly-up around 1am and works until sometime in the morning after i've gone to bed, then is borked again until about midnight. :P
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09:05 pmurias hi
09:05 yoleaux 9 Aug 2017 08:51Z <jnthn> pmurias: If we see it's a heredoc, though, we can always peek the heredocs queue and I think in there we can find info about the here language to tell if it's an interpolating one or not.
09:05 pmurias start of JSX slang for todays TPC::EU talk demo: https://github.com/pmurias/p6-jsx
09:07 pmurias I'm not sure what syntax would be best, raw <span>Hello World</span> collides with our <list of words construct>
09:07 pmurias I'm currently using "jsx <span>Hello World</span>"
09:08 moritz or q:xml <span>Hello Word</span>
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09:09 zengargoyle are there videos of TPC::Ampsterdam?
09:10 lookatme yeah, add it into Quote Language
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10:14 eythian is there a canonical place to go to read about perl6 keywords? e.g. I want to know about react and whenever, but when I google them I get the page on concurrency which does talk about them, but doesn't give me a perldoc-type explanation of everything about them.
10:16 jast I think that is currently the primary location that documents react blocks
10:18 eythian ah OK. I was hoping for something like 'perldoc -f foo' gives. But perhaps it's just not existant yet :)
10:19 stmuk there is p6doc -f react but it may not even return that page
10:20 jast the documentation for classes/objects is more structured
10:20 eythian my computer doesn't seem to know anything about p6doc, alas
10:20 eythian (I think the ubuntu packages have a wee way to go really. But that's OK.)
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10:26 stmuk p6doc really needs sqlite fts
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11:27 eythian I try to  run a script, and it says "Could not find Encode at line 5 in:" then lists the  perl6path. Shouldn't it be telling me where the module is being requested as well?
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11:31 timotimo oh, it probably should
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11:32 araraloren buggable: eco Encode
11:32 buggable araraloren, Encode 'Character encodings in Perl 6': https://github.com/sergot/perl6-encode 6 other matching results: https://modules.perl6.org/s/Encode
11:32 araraloren Encode is a module name
11:33 timotimo somebody ought to port this to the new encoder/decoder api
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11:34 eythian the problem is more that the error tells me that it's not found at line 5. But  it doesn't tell me line 5 of what.
11:34 timotimo oh!
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11:41 Geth ¦ doc: 5b48c19b84 | (Timo Paulssen)++ | doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6
11:41 Geth ¦ doc: doc methods {socket,peer}-{host,port} of IO::Socket::Async
11:41 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5b48c19b84
11:41 timotimo i haven't worked on p6doc in a long time, so hopefully that's correct
11:45 araraloren Is the new version rakudo released ?
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12:04 timotimo what do you mean?
12:06 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: 5c38652fd2 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5/Hash.pm6
12:06 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Speed up Inline::Perl5::Hash AT-KEY and EXISTS-KEY
12:06 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5:
12:06 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Use the UTF-8 encoder directly just like in p6_to_p5(Str)
12:06 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/5c38652fd2
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12:40 timotimo no facebook posts from the perl conference in the last 20 hours at all :|
12:41 lizmat busy busy busy  :-)
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12:54 El_Che timotimo: you should come next time :)
12:56 timotimo so that i can do the livestreaming? :P
12:57 brrt for one thing
12:57 AlexDaniel eythian: hey. I've submitted a ticket for “at line 5” issue: RT #131884
12:57 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131884
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12:59 El_Che :)
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13:15 eythian AlexDaniel++
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13:31 HoboWithAShotgun good localtime() you wonderful people.
13:31 timotimo o/
13:31 HoboWithAShotgun Do you guys use any tools to enter the unicode operators of perl6?
13:32 timotimo well, i have been typing neo2 for a long time and that has a whole lot of useful things easily accessible
13:32 timotimo we do have a documentation page on unicode input that goes into a few different editors and operating system's input methods
13:32 timotimo https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry
13:33 mspo HoboWithAShotgun: it's tough
13:33 mspo maybe a touchbar mac would be good :)
13:33 mspo I was also thinking a phone/tablet app with a supplemental keyboard might be cool
13:34 HoboWithAShotgun Not exactly flow friendly
13:35 mspo that's probably why you'd use the texas symbols most of the time
13:35 mspo and just let your editor transform them if you wanted
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13:35 HoboWithAShotgun maybe some kind of auto-correct?
13:35 mspo sure
13:35 timotimo i don't think there's anything you can't use an ascii equivalent for
13:36 mspo in vim I think it would be easy-ish to setup
13:36 mspo I think those set symbols are difficult to distinguish anyway :)
13:36 HoboWithAShotgun so when you type <<< it turns it into «
13:36 mspo although I can definitely see the appeal of them
13:36 timotimo i remember a plugin that displays things pretty while keeping the "original" ascii underneith
13:36 mspo HoboWithAShotgun: yeah you could do that
13:37 mspo timotimo: that's another thing but now I forgot the name :)
13:37 timotimo they call it "conceal"
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13:37 AlexDaniel HoboWithAShotgun: there's this page: https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_entry
13:38 HoboWithAShotgun maybe i can hack an auto-hotkey script together. but that wouldn't help the majority of you guys
13:38 AlexDaniel ah, already mentioned
13:38 * AlexDaniel is blind, sorry
13:38 HoboWithAShotgun i know. i dont uuse vim or emacs and (i know, i know) windows
13:38 raschipi timotimo: That would be supported in the font, it's called ligatures.
13:38 mspo I think I'm thinking about ligatures
13:38 mspo yeah
13:38 timotimo raschipi: that's a different thing
13:38 timotimo syn match HateWord /hate/ conceal cchar=!
13:39 timotimo this would replace "hate" with a ! until you cursor into it
13:39 mspo HoboWithAShotgun: both of those work on windows :)
13:40 timotimo raschipi: though of course you can have a font with a ligature "math.pi" that looks like ?
13:40 mspo in the perl6 world you could replace the *actual* characters though, not just the display
13:40 timotimo well, yeah
13:40 eythian can't you just press compose-<< to get «?
13:40 AlexDaniel yes
13:40 eythian turns out you can
13:40 timotimo but this is about when you can't easily input unicode characters
13:41 * mspo looks for the compose button
13:41 timotimo ?_?
13:41 eythian I have it set to be the menu button, because I never use that
13:41 * AlexDaniel has it on TAB, heh… :P
13:41 raschipi I have it set to the right super button because there's two of those.
13:42 mspo ? vs ?  are just too similar for me
13:42 AlexDaniel HoboWithAShotgun: I've come to a (possibly wrong) conclusion that getting your tools to enter unicode freely is a personal journey, so there's no easy answer
13:42 Altreus caps lock seemed like a good candidate to me
13:43 timotimo for me it's capslock + tab
13:43 Altreus At once? :o
13:43 timotimo at the same time, yes
13:43 timotimo capslock is already what gives me stuff like \/{}*?()-:@
13:43 timotimo and …_[]^!><=&? and #$|~`+%"';
13:44 timotimo and ¹²³›‹¢¥‚‘’
13:44 AlexDaniel there are three keys that you probably want to be placed in a better position: compose, hyper and altgr. But there is only one caps lock :(
13:44 mspo I don't know how to type those bracket-looking quotes
13:44 mspo ?these?
13:44 jast I've repurposed altgr to enter umlauts and other assorted characters while using the US layout
13:45 Altreus My keyboard already has keys for every ASCII character in that set :\
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13:45 Altreus do you have a special tiny keyboard
13:45 AlexDaniel jast: \o/ yay for custom layouts! If you have altgr placed in a comfortable position, consider adding altgr-ed arrow keys on the home row :)
13:47 timotimo aye, altgr and esdf on neo2 are arrow keys
13:47 jast I don't use arrow keys enough for that
13:47 timotimo and there's pgup/pgdwn, home/end, escape, tab, backspace, delete around it
13:47 AlexDaniel .oO(and also changing your spacebar to altgr. Just don't tell anybody that I recommended this)
13:48 jast and I don't mind moving my hands sometimes, helps avoid muscle issues due to prolonged immobilization
13:49 mspo I want an interrobang key
13:49 AlexDaniel jast: that's ok :) One thing to note, however, is that your layout defines your workflow. If your arrow keys are too far, then you don't use them often.
13:51 timotimo the fridge is far away from my desk and i still use it too often :<
13:52 AlexDaniel timotimo: consider changing it so that you have to hold a modifier to use it
13:52 * eythian plans to install foot pedals
13:53 AlexDaniel eythian: I've tried that, didn't work too well :( turns out that I'm moving around too often
13:54 eythian Maybe a microphone then. So "AAAAAAAARGH"-<< gives you «
13:54 timotimo fantastic
13:54 timotimo vocal modifiers
13:54 eythian it's the future, especially for open-plan offices.
13:55 jast AlexDaniel: to be honest I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with distance of keys. I wouldn't want my letters and symbols spread all over the place, but going from typing to movements is a mental mode switch anyway. the speed at which I can move my hands has never felt like a limiting factor.
13:56 AlexDaniel jast: it's no longer a mental mode switch for me. Movement, typing and editing is blended together for me
13:56 jast in fact, I find that moving the hands and doing that mental mode switch correlates nicely on a cognitive and so I almost prefer moving my hands :)
13:56 jast maybe you're just way faster than me
13:57 AlexDaniel no, that's because my layout has all these keys in the same place :)
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13:57 jast I mean in the sense that the movement would cause actual measurable delays
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13:58 AlexDaniel timotimo: have you noticed any mental switch using neo layout?
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14:01 jast eythian: how about mouse gestures
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14:03 eythian jast: that'd be quite "rub tummy pat head"
14:03 AlexDaniel perfect for pair programming
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14:05 * [Coke] keeps trying to watch samcv's video on FB and getting disconnected.
14:05 [Coke] samcv++
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14:27 timotimo also looking forward to seeing the recording and/or slides of pmurias' talk about rakudo-js
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14:29 El_Che is samcv still around? I would like to say hallo before the conference ends :)
14:31 hythm Hello Perl6, For some reason I don't understand how to organize the code as modules... I read the docs multiple times (checked perl6 modules in github) but still don't get it, for instance where to use unit package, unit module, unit class,  subs inside these modules.
14:32 hythm I probably will get a better idea if I looked into an aplication example, where there is bin/app.p6 includes App.pm main module, and App.pm includes other major and small features of the app
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14:35 timotimo "unit class" is the same as "class" and putting curly braces around the entire rest of the file
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14:39 El_Che hythm: do you plan to mainly use OO (from your question)? Concentrate on class, has and method
14:40 El_Che for now
14:48 ugexe its not exactly the same, but is supposed to be - see: https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131841#ticket-history
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: 9088f5e68f | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5/Object.pm6
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Speed up repeated calls to methods on Perl 5 objects
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5:
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Method fallbacks have considerable overhead. But once we know that a
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Perl 5 object may have some method, we can assume that its gonna be
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: called again in the future. So we install a wrapper method with the name
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: we now know to avoid the overhead of fallbacks in future calls.
14:48 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/9088f5e68f
14:49 wictory[m] Hi! Is there a ready made http client module  supporting keep alive connections? It seems that WWW (building on HTTP::UserAgent) does not do this
14:50 ugexe Net::HTTP, but its probably missing other things you'd want :x
14:51 hythm EL_Che, yes mainly OO. (sorry for late answer, had to step out for a minute)
14:57 ckraniak HoboWithAShotgun: Only been really toying with perl6 for a day, but fwiw I've been using BabelMap, only need to have one set symbol in the source, then copy paste as needed
14:58 ckraniak I am not using that many unicode symbols at this point however
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15:01 pmurias timotimo: I could upload the slides somewhere, not sure what a good place would be?
15:02 pmurias not sure how I should upload a reveal.js presentation
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15:08 [Coke] hythm: here's a dumb app with a bin script using a lib.
15:08 [Coke] warning: might be too dumb.
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15:09 El_Che it's an invisible link!
15:09 El_Che :)
15:10 pmurias timotimo: https://pmurias.github.io/rakudo.js-tpc-eu/ - presentation slides
15:12 hythm the app is to dumb to have a link to point to it :D
15:13 El_Che the app provides the link on irc, but it posted to the wrong channel :)
15:14 pmurias El_Che: have we met at the YAPC::EU?
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15:15 timotimo thanks pmurias :)
15:15 timotimo now i have to leave the house but i'll look later
15:16 pmurias timotimo: that slides itself aren't that informative ;)
15:16 pmurias * themselves
15:18 timotimo ah
15:19 El_Che pmurias: I don't think so
15:19 El_Che I was timekeeping an other talk during yours :(
15:20 hythm Coke: Where can I find the smart app?
15:27 El_Che hythm: https://docs.perl6.org/language/objects#Classes <-- that is pretty clear on class, has and method
15:28 hythm Thanks El_Che, Checking this out
15:31 El_Che np
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15:33 * [Coke] never sent his link!
15:33 [Coke] github.com/coke/p6-uni
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15:34 hythm I guess the app became smarter :)
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15:46 * renormalist fears to ask an FAQ but anyway:
15:47 renormalist Which option does an Emacs user have to edit Perl6 code currently?
15:47 sena_kun renormalist, perl6-more.
15:47 * renormalist checks
15:47 sena_kun renormalist, it gives you syntax highlight and indention.
15:48 renormalist perl6-mod(!)e you mean?
15:48 renormalist with d
15:48 sena_kun sure
15:48 sena_kun just a typo, sorry
15:48 renormalist k
15:48 renormalist fine, just wanted to make sure I don't miss another option
15:49 renormalist thanks
15:49 sena_kun it's quite useful if you ask me, however, it is not a perfect tool and if someone stands up with a better alternative, it will be quite great
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15:51 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: b77f9175b1 | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6
15:51 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Speed up p5_to_p6 a little
15:51 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5:
15:51 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Turns out a series of if statements is just faster than using given/when
15:51 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Also this should hopefully test the most common types first.
15:51 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/b77f9175b1
15:52 renormalist sena_kun: it's not a trivial task, I adapted cperl-mode years ago and it was a) hard in general and b) hard to keep up with perl6 development
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15:54 sena_kun renormalist, no doubts the task is very complex, I'm just dreaming a bit, so don't take it serious. :)
15:54 sena_kun s/serious/seriously/
15:54 renormalist :-)
15:57 sena_kun renormalist, also, about the other options...
15:59 AlexDaniel I wish perl6-mode had someone working on it consistently
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16:00 AlexDaniel we already forked it to perl6/ org, it helped a bit https://github.com/perl6/perl6-mode
16:00 sena_kun the last update of hinrik's perl6-mode was at 2016, since then tbrowder++ improved it here: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-mode - it is a fork and because of some issues not listed on melpa, but if you're okay with installation of raw packages, you can try it. I use "vanilla", so cannot say is it much better though.
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16:04 AlexDaniel is treyharris on IRC?
16:04 AlexDaniel oh yeah
16:05 AlexDaniel TreyHarris: hey! What do you think about https://github.com/perl6/perl6-mode/issues/11#issuecomment-321853018 ?
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17:43 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: e1f6b72f5c | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6.pm
17:43 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Implement handling of `BREW` HTTP requests
17:43 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org:
17:43 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/2017-08-11#i_15002201
17:43 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/e1f6b72f5c
17:53 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: 0a841cef5c | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6.pm
17:53 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Handle BREW requests on / too
17:53 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/0a841cef5c
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19:24 hankache hello #perl6
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19:47 ckraniak Ok, native call on FormatMessage
19:49 * stmuk finds an odd looking object which appears to be a Uk->Swiss plug adaptor
19:49 stmuk useful!
19:50 ckraniak "Native call expected return type with CPointer representation, but got a P6opaque (Int)"
19:50 timotimo yeah, you passed an int where you were supposed to pass a pointer
19:51 geekosaur I don't think you can use Int with NativeCall because it's a boxed, arbitrary-sized value
19:51 ckraniak The call has uint32 (DWORD) in it
19:51 timotimo oh god not windows api
19:52 geekosaur m: my uint32 $x = 0
19:52 camelia rakudo-moar 5fcce6: ( no output )
19:52 geekosaur but that is not Int
19:52 timotimo why does it say "return value" though?
19:53 ckraniak That is once I call it
19:53 ckraniak I assume it's because I am not setting up the return buffer right but I cannot find any example code that returns that way
19:55 timotimo what's your definition look like? in perl6 code i mean
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20:00 thunderheart hi all, am doing my first steps into Perl6. Can you explain me the help syntax from docs.perl6.org, ie multi sub infix:<lcm>($a, $b --> Int:D) ?
20:01 ckraniak sub __FormatMessage(uint32 $flags, Pointer[void] $source, uint32 $message-id, uint32 $language-id, Str $buffer is rw, uint32 $size, OpaquePointer $arguments --> uint32) is native('kernel32') is symbol('FormatMessageW') { ... }
20:01 ckraniak But
20:01 ckraniak I have been messing with the signature to try to extract a different error message
20:02 ckraniak So the pointers and Str are just whatever right now
20:03 ckraniak Been messing with types for $buffer and $argument mostly
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20:03 ckraniak I am pretty sure OpaquePointer is wrong
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20:05 timotimo oh, this is about variable number of arguments?
20:06 ckraniak Maybe?
20:06 ckraniak Is this a known issue?
20:06 timotimo yeah, we don't have proper support for var args yet, but you can declare multiple multi candidates that have any number of arguments ...
20:07 ckraniak Tried leaving it off and that gives the same message
20:07 ckraniak Documentation indicates a uint32 is rw will be accepted there
20:09 ckraniak I don't understand the current error message and can't make it do any others
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20:12 ckraniak Or a Pointer[Pointer[uint32]]
20:12 ckraniak I think
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20:17 ckraniak Jesus Christ it's because it can't coerce 0 to void*
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20:21 ckraniak Feeling pretty stupid bout that one
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21:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 1096674cf6 | (David Warring)++ | META.list
21:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: add PDF::Content class library
21:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/1096674cf6
22:03 tyil[m] lizmat: is the hackathon still planned?
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22:40 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 814b55959b | (David Warring)++ | META.list
22:40 Geth ¦ ecosystem: add PDF::Lite - A minimal class for manipulating PDF content
22:40 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/814b55959b
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