Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-08-15

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:00 ijneb What was all of that Netsplit stuff about?
00:00 brimonk AlexDaniel: Where do I do that, and where are the instructions for how to do that?
00:00 timotimo it's an IRC thing; an IRC network ("freenode", "oftc", "ircnet") is made up of many servers which are interconnected
00:01 AlexDaniel huggable: rakudobug
00:01 huggable AlexDaniel, Report bugs by emailing to <rakudobug@perl.org>
00:01 AlexDaniel hm… that's not very instructional
00:01 ijneb timotimo: Ah, never knew freenode did that
00:01 timotimo if one of these servers goes down and that happens to split the whole network in half (because not all servers are connected to every other server in the network)
00:01 timotimo you get a netsplit where a whole bunch of users are suddenly no longer reachable from your position
00:02 AlexDaniel huggable: rakudobug :is: Report bugs by emailing to <rakudobug@perl.org>. See also: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction
00:02 huggable AlexDaniel, Added rakudobug as Report bugs by emailing to <rakudobug@perl.org>. See also: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/rt-introduction
00:02 ijneb Neat
00:02 AlexDaniel brimonk: basically, you just write an email to rakudobug@perl.org, that's it
00:02 brimonk AlexDaniel: And I should take that zef output and just say, "I was trying to install DBIish, and I got this error, here's the version of my things"
00:03 brimonk That it?
00:03 AlexDaniel brimonk: yes! Also include bisectable6's answer to me
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00:04 AlexDaniel brimonk: what happened is that it did binary search over the commit history, and found that the behavior changed on https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/46ef1b5b48dd51a47a7de70d4740bcea9779a104
00:04 AlexDaniel for example
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00:04 AlexDaniel commit: 46ef1b5b48dd5^ https://gist.githubusercontent.com/AlexDaniel/1e2c456f006687ea7100a35b2931af41/raw/9aad30ec83728b43b5d1d134a4c0701354e2c8c5/nativehelpers-test.p6
00:04 committable6 AlexDaniel, Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL.
00:04 committable6 AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/d4308db19dca64d163637c95c2fa3381
00:04 AlexDaniel that's before that commit
00:04 AlexDaniel commit: 46ef1b5b48dd5 https://gist.githubusercontent.com/AlexDaniel/1e2c456f006687ea7100a35b2931af41/raw/9aad30ec83728b43b5d1d134a4c0701354e2c8c5/nativehelpers-test.p6
00:04 committable6 AlexDaniel, Successfully fetched the code from the provided URL.
00:04 committable6 AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/516d327afa00080e4c5fff77ba167220
00:04 AlexDaniel and that's after
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00:07 AlexDaniel by the way, who was that wonderful person who gave me a clue that I can use bisectable with modules?
00:08 ugexe m: use Zef; # me ?
00:08 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: ( no output )
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00:10 AlexDaniel ugexe: oh, I think so!
00:10 * AlexDaniel sends virtual hugs
00:11 AlexDaniel ugexe: thing is, whateverable already has all of the modules cloned (this is needed for greppable), so no Zef hackery is required :)
00:11 AlexDaniel you just have to use lib the right path
00:12 ugexe m: use Zef::Client; use Zef::Config; my $client = Zef::Client.new(:config(Zef::Config::parse-file(Zef::Config::guess-path()))); my CompUnit::Repository @to = CompUnit::RepositoryRegistry.repository-for-name("home"); my $candi = $client.search("CSV::Parser").head; say $client.install($candi, :!test, :@to);
00:12 AlexDaniel scary, I know! But we just had a rather useful bisectable result with this :)
00:12 AlexDaniel e: use Zef
00:12 evalable6 AlexDaniel, rakudo-moar 231cb3f5f: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) ===SORRY!===?Could not find Zef at line 1 in:?    /home/bisectable/git/whate…»
00:13 evalable6 AlexDaniel, Full output: https://gist.github.com/9f76e948639597b105ef69712824f407
00:13 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «(timeout)»
00:13 AlexDaniel :P :P :P
00:16 brimonk AlexDaniel: bug report sent.
00:16 ugexe m: use CSV::Parser;
00:16 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: ( no output )
00:17 AlexDaniel ugexe:that's actually interesting. Didn't it kill it after a timeoet?
00:17 AlexDaniel timeout :)
00:18 ugexe precomp happens after its already installed
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00:19 brimonk Is there a way to execute my perl script within a debugger like I used to in perl5?
00:19 AlexDaniel brimonk: thank you very much for your report!
00:20 brimonk AlexDaniel: Anything for you!
00:20 brimonk Wait, does that mean that you literally just fixed it?
00:20 AlexDaniel no
00:20 brimonk What did you do then?
00:22 AlexDaniel .tell nine Can you take a look at RT #131898? It looks scary, I'd say a blocker. Please tell me what you think.
00:22 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131898
00:22 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to nine.
00:22 AlexDaniel brimonk: the bot has rakudo built on *all* commits, so you can ask the bot when something got broken
00:23 AlexDaniel brimonk: it will run the code you provide on a bunch of builds and figure it out for you
00:23 ugexe calling it a block might be a stretch - if you actually look at the code in question is already defined in a global scope elsewhere so the code itself is not exactly kosher (even if it should technically work)
00:23 AlexDaniel brimonk: 46ef1b5b48dd5 is a commit that changed the behavior, so if you compile rakudo on something older, then it works :)
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00:26 AlexDaniel ugexe: maybe you are right. That said, DBIish is one of the most popular modules I think, so we should do something about it one way or another
00:27 AlexDaniel we can fix the module instead, that would work too
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00:35 lookatme morning
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00:59 hythm m: $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),]
00:59 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: ( no output )
01:00 hythm :m say $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),]
01:00 hythm m: say $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),]
01:00 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «[[Hello Perl 6]]?»
01:01 hythm How to flatten this array to get (Hello", "Perl 6") Array items?
01:03 raschipi m: say $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),].flat.map(*.Slip).join("|")
01:03 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «Hello|Perl 6?»
01:04 hythm Thanks raschipi
01:04 AlexDaniel m: say gather [["Hello", "Perl 6"],]».take
01:04 raschipi m: say $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),]map(*.Slip).join("|")
01:04 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «(Hello Perl 6)?»
01:04 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Two terms in a row?at <tmp>:1?------> 3ay $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),]7?5map(*.Slip).join("|")?    expecting any of:?        infix?        infix stopper?        postfix?       …»
01:05 raschipi m: say $[Array[Str].new("Hello", "Perl 6"),].map(*.Slip).join("|") #one too many previously
01:05 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «Hello|Perl 6?»
01:07 raschipi » is like .map but it parallelizes things, so it won't keep the order of the itens...
01:08 raschipi Or am I confused with .race?
01:09 raschipi Oh yes, » preserves the order.
01:12 brimonk AlexDaniel: I reverted to the patch that you suggested, but I still got the same error.
01:12 AlexDaniel raschipi: uhhhhh! Oops!! You are actually right
01:12 timotimo ? preserves the order of results, not of execution. but take relies on the side-effect of jumping back to the outer gather, so you'll get it in the wrong order, still
01:13 AlexDaniel yes, please ignore that snippet
01:13 raschipi Right, the flow control exceptions are side effects.
01:13 AlexDaniel brimonk: that's interesting
01:14 AlexDaniel brimonk: are you sure?
01:14 AlexDaniel u: ?
01:14 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+226B MUCH GREATER-THAN [Sm] (?)
01:14 AlexDaniel timotimo: ? ? O,o
01:15 raschipi u: »
01:15 unicodable6 raschipi, U+00BB RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK [Pf] (»)
01:15 brimonk git says, 'HEAD detached at 46ef1b5'
01:15 raschipi timotimo: You want this ? one
01:15 brimonk Unles I needed the full sha hash and I messed it up.
01:16 geekosaur brimonk, that's normal if you specify a hash and it's not the actual HEAD of that branch
01:16 geekosaur you should not make commits in that state, is what it's warning you
01:16 AlexDaniel brimonk: but on *that* commit there's a bug, you need a parent of that commit if you want to do it like that
01:17 AlexDaniel brimonk: so perhaps try checking out to 46ef1b5b48^ (where ^ tells it to use its parent)
01:19 AlexDaniel in other words, da4a0f50ac0
01:19 brimonk so install -> da4a0f50ac0a00332920e330b062d03543290fd6
01:19 brimonk Yes.
01:19 brimonk Trying now.
01:20 brimonk I think that did it!
01:20 brimonk Still testing modules.
01:20 timotimo raschipi: yeah i was too lazy :)
01:23 brimonk AlexDaniel: Works!
01:24 raschipi Next we will learn there are modules out there already relying on tha commit and that it can't be reverted...
01:26 AlexDaniel raschipi: huh? It's just 8 days old
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01:31 raschipi AlexDaniel: Never understimate users. Wasan't nadim using development versions to get bug fixes need for his dumper? But it was but a joke.
01:41 brimonk Is there a good way to store perl6 rationals in sqlite? Is the preferred method a string?
01:42 brimonk s/preferred/best
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01:52 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:52 raschipi lookatme: The plan is yes, from what I gather. rakudo-js will target webassembly. This way it avoids the wonky JavaScript types.
01:53 mspo why does star have json and json_fast
01:53 mspo also these github projects use all different naming
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01:54 lookatme raschipi, oh, cools!
01:58 raschipi lookatme: You need to ask pmurias, though.
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01:59 lookatme Hmm thanks
02:00 raschipi It will certainly target asm.js, though. Going from asm.js to wasm isn't much.
02:01 mspo is panda going to be dropped from star?
02:03 mspo also could star make a csv or something out of MODULES.txt that included github info? :)
02:04 raschipi mspo: I never seen any volunteers around to decide what goes into *.
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02:06 raschipi In every discussion about it, some want it to be just the bare necessary to install other modules, while others just say a standard library is a good idea, yet no one wants to do the job.
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02:48 zengargoyle oh, sweet... The official videos of TPCiA are still in post-production.
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02:50 zengargoyle and samcv++ /me in the middle of first or second talk...
02:52 dubi0us joined #perl6
02:53 zengargoyle .ask lizmat did you do that talk thing from a while back?
02:53 yoleaux zengargoyle: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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04:00 ugexe https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnxrbmwwcf80n96/IMG_0120.jpg line noise camelia
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04:20 zengargoyle ugexe: :)
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04:22 * zengargoyle isn't sure i get it....
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04:31 lspaans p6: say pi;
04:31 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «3.14159265358979?»
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06:00 * lookatme is reading https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/2017-33-in-review/
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06:20 moritz lizmat++ # p6weekly
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06:37 lookatme modules.perl6.org not available with 503 error
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06:40 nadim I confirm it is down here too
06:40 nadim morning lookatme
06:40 lookatme nadim, morning :)
06:41 moritz it seems /tmp/ is full
06:44 moritz Aug 13 07:24:55 www systemd[1]: [/etc/systemd/system/smoke.perl6.org.service:6] Unknown lvalue 'restart' in section 'Service'
06:44 moritz the log is full with these messages
06:51 moritz seems that previous versions of systemd were either case insensitive to configuration, or didn't warn about unknown values
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07:06 * zengargoyle totally doesn't know how to properly answer a StackOverflow question. (this should be interesting...)
07:07 zengargoyle i have a feeling it's not as forgiving as PerlMonks.
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07:20 moritz the main difference is that perlmonks encourages discussion
07:20 moritz stackoverflow wants a straight-forward answer if possible
07:20 * lizmat clickbaits https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017/08/14/2017-33-in-review/
07:25 zengargoyle i probably did poorly, a mix between "i've asked this and have an answer" and just linking to IRC log and saying read this.
07:25 yoleaux 07:18Z <lizmat> zengargoyle: if you're referring to my "talk" at the TPCiA: no.  This was a completely unscripted Q&A session with most of the answers provided by people in the audience
07:25 * zengargoyle what?
07:27 zengargoyle .tell lizmat nah, i don't think i've gotten far enough into TPCiA to know what you mean. :) i was just curious in general and thought maybe talk was for TPC but maybe not.
07:27 yoleaux zengargoyle: I'll pass your message to lizmat.
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07:29 lizmat .
07:29 yoleaux 07:27Z <zengargoyle> lizmat: nah, i don't think i've gotten far enough into TPCiA to know what you mean. :) i was just curious in general and thought maybe talk was for TPC but maybe not.
07:31 zengargoyle my internet has been down or flakey for the past week.  i've missed a lot of things and i'm still catching up. :)
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07:41 zorin-os can anyone help me statically compile perl with -Drelocatableinc and with thread support
07:42 zengargoyle zorin-os: wrong IRC channel.  this is #perl6 and any perl5 help will a bit iffy. :)
07:43 zorin-os is perl6 as stable as perl5?
07:43 zorin-os or at least compatible with perl5 scripts?
07:43 zengargoyle but -Drelocatableinc ... i'm not sure that is really involved or tied in with threads at all.
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07:44 zengargoyle -Drelocatableinc is just a string manipulation that turns .../ into $^X/../  there's not really much magic there the last time i looked.
07:45 zorin-os (its so i dont need to manually set @INC in every single script to point to the perl ./lib/perl5 and other folders with are required to work correctly)
07:45 zorin-os (wich in tern can lead to problems if a string or path is missing from @INC)
07:47 zorin-os (although i am not sure what paths are needed to enable the use of "use lib" so its better to just make @INC relocatable)
07:47 zengargoyle all relocatable inc does IIRC is let you specify during configure and suce a path like .../ and that gets search and replaced with the $^X path of the executing perl.
07:48 zengargoyle userelocatable and usesitelocal was the one thing i actually fixed in perl5... :)  maybe i don't understand your problem.
07:49 zengargoyle but you are in the wrong channel for p5 stuff... :)
07:49 zengargoyle s/suce/such
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07:53 zorin-os my main problem is getting perl to compile statically
07:55 zorin-os as i have tried "./Configure -d -Uusedl ; make", "./Configure -des -Uusedl ; make", "./Configure -des -Uusedl -Dldflags=-static", "./Configure -d -Uusedl -Dldflags= ; make", "./Configure -d -Uusedl -Dldflags=-static", and "./Configure -des -Dldflags=-static ; make" but all have failed with "collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status [ new line ] makefile:369: recipe for target 'perl' failed [ new line ] make: *** [perl] Error 1"
07:55 zengargoyle ah, got it... i've never tried static... i think irc.perl.org/#perl5 or the like would be more helpful.  unless you just get lucky here. :P
07:55 geekosaur something failed before that, those are about the least useful part of the error
07:55 geekosaur but in any case I think forcing static link for perl 5 will have very bad effects
07:56 zorin-os i do get "warning: Using '...' in statically linked applications requires at runtime the shared libraries from the glibc version used for linking"
07:56 * zengargoyle and then there's geekosaur.... :)
07:56 geekosaur (like disabling dlopen(), meaning you can't use XS modules unless you compiled them into perl)
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07:57 geekosaur yes, glibc itself is hostile to static linking also
07:57 zorin-os how do i get around that
07:57 geekosaur basically, static linking anything on a modern linux takes special setup and you can expect to have to bundle parts of glibc with the result
07:58 geekosaur the correct answer is: don't
07:58 zengargoyle will p5 build with any of the glibc alternatives?
07:58 geekosaur the answer you want to hear, of course, is magic
07:59 zorin-os are you able to determine how a perl was compiled
07:59 geekosaur -V
07:59 zengargoyle -V
08:00 zorin-os are there any other important options other then config_args
08:00 zorin-os assuming that alone isnt enough
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08:01 zorin-os aalso irc.perl.org/#perl5 only has 1 user in it ._.
08:01 zorin-os also*
08:02 zorin-os person*
08:02 zengargoyle i'm almost half sure i've built perl with -Uusedl but it was on Solaris.
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08:02 zorin-os im trying to re-create/re-compile this but with threaded support http://s.minos.io/archive/bifrost/x86_64/perl-5.10.1-3.tar.bz2
08:03 zorin-os but all attempts have failed
08:03 zengargoyle and probably accidental as when i tried to do VIM with Perl there was no libperl.so to be found....
08:04 zorin-os http://www.cpan.org/src/5.0/perl-5.10.1.tar.bz2
08:05 zengargoyle zorin-os: it might be just #perl and not #perl5
08:06 zengargoyle there are 600+ users in #perl on freenode... i'm not totally sure about perl5 IRC location.
08:07 zorin-os ok
08:07 zengargoyle sorry, i'm not really sure what the 'official' Perl 5 IRC is....
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08:08 zorin-os although staticperl (App:staticperl) contains -Uusedl yet a ldd of its perl shows it as a dynamically compiled executable even though -Uused1 is refered to as " *This symbol, if defined, indicates that dynamic loading of some sort is available."
08:08 zorin-os App::Staticperl *
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08:09 zorin-os and -U meand to undefine what ever symbol is after -U
08:09 zorin-os means*
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08:10 zengargoyle true static is hard, it seems to mean just libc and libm and like geekosaur said it's really a hard process to get a truly static binary.
08:10 zengargoyle are you trying to embed somewhere?
08:11 zorin-os no, i need it for my script to work should someone not have perl installed
08:12 zengargoyle ah, so not even libc ....
08:12 zorin-os the requirements are: to be able to work in a chroot
08:13 zorin-os with just perl and the script alone
08:13 zorin-os (including perl lib and bin dirs also)
08:14 zengargoyle that doesn't necessarily imply static.  unless you're being horribly strict about not even loading anything at all dynamic.
08:14 zorin-os yes
08:14 zengargoyle i will way it's a total PITA.
08:16 zorin-os as even i the libs required for perl to work are missing or even renamed perl will still work cus it can be ued from within a chroot with only perl/bin/perl and a script located in perl/
08:16 zorin-os if*
08:16 zorin-os used*
08:16 zengargoyle i did not have your chroot restriction, but close enough.  i ended up copyiong .so files into .../lib/perl5 and taking pains to point everything there.
08:17 zorin-os but that also is not a solution (making the application require chrooting into to work)
08:17 zengargoyle ah, doubt i'd try a single perl binary and single script.
08:17 zengargoyle i had single directory....
08:17 zorin-os chroot is just to varify that everything can still work even i they are the only thing on the system
08:17 zengargoyle but everything needed under that directory.
08:18 zengargoyle except for libc/libm that OMG the whole machine won't work without that...
08:19 zorin-os for example, chroot ./perl /bin/perl /script.pl AND the /lib/perl5 directory exists and succesfull execution of the script means the script is then fully portable (except for its shebang)
08:19 zorin-os ./perl/lib/perl5*
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08:20 zengargoyle you might look for user 'mst' here or on 'perl' channel somewhere.  he does a lot of similar stuff.
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08:22 zengargoyle i don't see why chroot is special if you at least have basic system functionality that sorta has to be there...
08:23 zorin-os cus it makes sure there is absolutely no chance of perl failing due to one o its dependancies being incompatible or missing a unction that it uses
08:23 zorin-os of*
08:23 zengargoyle ldd perl --- linux-vdso.so.1 libdl.so.2 libm.so.6 libpthres.so.0 libc.so.6 libcrypt.so.1 /lib64/ld-linux-x86.64.so.2
08:24 zorin-os function*
08:24 zorin-os or if the distro has a compleately different but still functional file heirachy
08:25 zengargoyle if those don't work, nothing at all will work.  no need for static if you have a ./perl and everything under it.
08:25 zorin-os still, i want it static
08:26 zengargoyle Doctor, It Hurts When I Do This... good luck. :)
08:26 zorin-os lol
08:26 zengargoyle :)
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08:27 zorin-os u try to recreate this then http://s.minos.io/archive/bifrost/x86_64/perl-5.10.1-3.tar.bz2
08:28 zengargoyle my old $WORK wouldn't upgrade (long story) and i pretty much built an entire system under /var/local/net
08:28 zengargoyle if you toss to 'must be completely static' thing...  you can totally make 'under this directory' do anything you want.
08:29 zengargoyle including XS modules and all that.
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08:29 zengargoyle and libxml and libexpat and libssl and ....
08:30 zengargoyle but trying without a dynamic loader at all.... i wish you well. :)
08:33 zengargoyle really i think the #perl or mailing lists might get you what you want...  perl 5 runs on practically everything in the world, i doubt 'static' is terribly hard with people who know how to make it work on a cellphone.
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08:36 zengargoyle recreate?  is that not just perl-5.10.1 plus some distro things?
08:38 zorin-os as in get perl 5.10.1 to at least compile as static like it has been in http://s.minos.io/archive/bifrost/x86_64/perl-5.10.1-3.tar.bz2
08:39 zorin-os cus the fact that it is compiled statically means it IS possible
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08:40 zengargoyle i think you're chasing after the near impossible.  if you want to run under linux kernel, you are not fully static.
08:40 zengargoyle there is no big fat blob of binary that just works always.
08:41 zengargoyle even debian /bin/dash that is used in startup scripts and such uses libc.so and ld.so
08:43 zengargoyle you either dynamic load some very basic things, or you are tied to very specific kernel ABI and not working because of some filesystem change is the least of you worries when you totally can't work at all if the kernel changes.
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08:44 zengargoyle you're not on an embeded system runnin on bare metal where it will always be the same thing no matter what.
08:44 zorin-os i just need http://s.minos.io/archive/bifrost/x86_64/perl-5.10.1-3.tar.bz2 re compiled as is but with thread support
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08:47 zorin-os (or if possible with a relocatable /usr/local/local.archive and a relocatable /lib/x86_64-gnu.../
08:47 zengargoyle what is that?  is it just perl 5.10.1?
08:47 zorin-os that works the same way @INC relocatable works
08:48 zengargoyle you're chroot doesn't work if there is no /lib/x86_64-gnu....
08:48 zengargoyle it's a moot point.
08:48 zengargoyle i get you want safety.
08:48 zorin-os and http://s.minos.io/archive/bifrost/x86_64/perl-5.10.1-3.tar.bz2 is a statically compiled version of perl-5.10.1 that unfortunately hasnt been compiled with thread support
08:49 zengargoyle but you're desired thing won't actually work at all if the things that make it possible to work at all don't work.
08:49 zorin-os ;-;
08:50 zorin-os is there a way to see exactly what compiler was used
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08:51 zengargoyle why?  you have to have a directory for perl modules and scripts.  you have to have ld support for *anything* to work at all.  why do you want a static perl?
08:52 zengargoyle probably, look for the Config module or the Config_heavy??? module in the lib of the perl you want to look at.
08:52 zorin-os "you have to have a directory for perl modules and scripts.  you have to have ld support for *anything* to work at all.  why do you want a static perl?" what do you mean
08:52 zengargoyle all of the -V information about compiler and flags and etc... is in the Config* modules.
08:53 zengargoyle they are built during build time...
08:53 zorin-os whats the direct paths to them
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08:54 ShalokShalom hi there
08:54 lookatme hi ShalokShalom
08:55 ShalokShalom can i use Perl6 purely with functional concepts?
08:55 zengargoyle zorin-os: depends... my system it's /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/perl/5.26/Config.pm and Config_heavy.pl
08:56 andreoss ShalokShalom: yes
08:56 zorin-os btw is it possible to compile perl interperator and script.sh into a statically compiled binary with all needed dependancies and still have the script fully functional? as when i try with the staticperl (App::Staticperl) script i get -e instead of the path to the binary
08:56 andreoss https://docs.perl6.org/language/haskell-to-p6
08:57 andreoss not as purely as in Haskell though. There's no IO monad in Perl 6 and stuff like that
08:57 ShalokShalom andreoss: thanks a lot
08:57 ShalokShalom i mean, will i miss something?
08:57 ShalokShalom pattern matching?
08:57 zengargoyle zorin-os: you're still totally in the wrong channel. :)
08:57 ShalokShalom call functions in functions?
08:57 ShalokShalom what do you use for UIs?
08:57 ShalokShalom i guess there is no Qt5 binding? QML?
08:58 andreoss ShalokShalom: pattern matching, first-order functions, list comprehensions are present
08:58 ShalokShalom thanks a lot
08:58 lookatme ShalokShalom, you can do what you can do in other functional style language
08:58 ShalokShalom static typing in any way also?
08:58 ShalokShalom lookatme: thanks a lot
08:58 ShalokShalom this is exactly, what i wanted to know
08:58 lookatme yeah it has static type check
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08:59 ShalokShalom oh wow
08:59 ShalokShalom how that?
09:00 ShalokShalom ah gradual typing
09:00 ShalokShalom nice
09:01 lookatme yeah, you can read some tutorial first
09:01 zengargoyle ShalokShalom: there are some GTK bindings, but they're pretty basic.
09:01 ShalokShalom i see
09:02 ShalokShalom so you dont do GUIs, do you?
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09:03 zengargoyle i sorta think most would just use the Python bindings.... i think you can pretty well use like matplotlib and such Pythong modules from p6.
09:03 zorin-os btw how does Cwd abs_path work
09:03 zorin-os and is it possible to make a C or C++ version of it that does the same thing
09:03 moritz zorin-os: please ask Perl 5 questions in Perl 5 channels
09:04 moritz and C/C++ in the appropriate channels as well
09:04 zorin-os ok
09:04 zengargoyle and yeah, i don't do GUI's. :)  but there is good NativeCall C library integration, so you can use fancy GUI, just somebody needs to write the wrappers and make it easy to use in a p6 fashion.
09:05 zengargoyle so i think most people have put it at bottom of list of things to finish or create.
09:05 andreoss ShalokShalom: you probably can use python bindings through Inline::Python
09:06 ShalokShalom aha, ok i see
09:06 ShalokShalom so PyQT
09:07 * zengargoyle really sad now for not learning more Python just to be able to use Inline::Python easily...
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09:07 lookatme Can we use Qt binding of Perl5  through Inline::Perl5
09:07 lookatme ?
09:07 andreoss python's should be better
09:09 zorin-os what path is the correct path to the config http://codepad.org/aESZuRdM/raw.rb
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09:11 zengargoyle zorin-os: look for the path that also has a Config_heavy.pl
09:12 zorin-os ok
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09:12 zorin-os is it possible to use that to re-create the configuration state when it was built?
09:13 zengargoyle and then yes please go to a Perl 5 channel, i enjoy filling empty time, but this is Perl 6 channel and ....
09:14 zengargoyle zorin-os: final answer... :) yes.  that Config.pm and Config_heavy.pl are generated during the build and are what 'perl -V' shows.
09:16 zorin-os how would i do so
09:16 lookatme How about the ruby binding for GUI framework ?
09:17 lookatme I dont' want use python
09:17 ShalokShalom https://github.com/seanchas116/libqmlbind
09:18 ShalokShalom this might work
09:18 ShalokShalom while it is work
09:18 ShalokShalom :)
09:18 moritz https://github.com/awwaiid/p6-Inline-Ruby
09:18 moritz no idea how good it is
09:18 ShalokShalom ruby is without qt
09:19 moritz ShalokShalom: you missed an opportunity for a pun there
09:19 moritz "ruby has no qt"
09:19 ShalokShalom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0A1dsQOV0
09:19 ShalokShalom pun ^
09:19 moritz (some people pronounce qt as "cute")
09:19 ShalokShalom yep
09:19 ShalokShalom its as meant
09:20 ShalokShalom lookatme: perl5 bindings for Qt5 exist?
09:20 ShalokShalom i am maintaining the bindings page on qt wiki, this is why
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09:20 zorin-os is it possible to compile perl into a perl.so
09:21 zorin-os then somehow access all of its funtions threw C/C++
09:21 zorin-os through*
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09:23 * zengargoyle still just wants Tk.
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09:32 BooK_ hey, unicode math question
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09:33 BooK_ what should this return? 2??³
09:33 zorin-os also does the .so include everything in $HOME/perl/lib folder (assuming the prefix was $HOME/perl) and if not how do i include stuff from there
09:33 BooK_ also, 2???³? and  2³??
09:34 BooK_ p6: say 2??³
09:34 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «0.000244?»
09:34 BooK_ p6: say 2³??
09:34 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «0.000244?»
09:34 BooK_ p6: say 2???³?
09:34 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Bogus postfix?at <tmp>:1?------> 3say 27?5???³??    expecting any of:?        infix?        infix stopper?        postfix?        statement end?        statement modifier? …»
09:34 Juerd AlexDaniel: It's a 560 tests, not really short :)
09:35 Juerd AlexDaniel: I had just upgraded with rakudobrew
09:38 lookatme m: say 2??³ .WHAT;
09:38 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «===SORRY!===?Method call must either supply a name or have a child node that evaluates to the name?»
09:38 lookatme m: say (2??³).WHAT;
09:38 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «(Rat)?»
09:39 BooK_ is there a deparse thingy for perl6?
09:39 lookatme BooK_, you mean the return type ?
09:39 BooK_ I mean the value
09:39 moritz BooK_: there's a --target=ast
09:39 lookatme ast mast
09:39 moritz not quite deparse
09:39 BooK_ I'd expect that to be 2**(4-3) not 2**4**(-3)
09:40 lookatme oh
09:41 BooK_ I can understand how that won't be fixed, but people will try cute things with superscript stuff, so at least the docs should mention it
09:41 BooK_ anyway, no superscript $ or * so there's not much math available in the upper region
09:42 BooK_ it's basically 10 digits and a few signs: ?¹²³??????????? and two letters: ??
09:47 BooK_ (note I didn't find this, a colleague did... I'm just reporting)
09:48 lookatme I think they not consider priority of unicode operator
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10:19 andreoss is it possible to know type expected by lhs? i.e my Int $a = foo(); my Str $b = foo();
10:19 jnthn No
10:20 jnthn foo(my Int $a) where sub foo(::T $a is rw) { } would work out though
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10:26 andreoss m: sub infix:«*=*»(::T $a is rw, ::T $b) { $a = $b }; (my Int $x) *=* 10; say $x;
10:26 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Redeclaration of symbol 'T'?at <tmp>:1?------> 3sub infix:«*=*»(::T $a is rw, ::T7?5 $b) { $a = $b }; (my Int $x) *=* 10; sa?»
10:26 andreoss m: sub infix:«*=*»(::T $a is rw, T $b) { $a = $b }; (my Int $x) *=* 10; say $x;
10:26 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «10?»
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10:37 iviv is `rakudobrew build moar-blead` what I want to get the latest rakudo?
10:38 BooK_ this trap https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/d7feaf878696bc6b827d632c7aa064dd525f428c has no title, and gets merged under =head2 Exponentiation Operator and Prefix Minus
10:38 BooK_ if anyone can come up with a proper title, I'll do the patch
10:39 grumble joined #perl6
10:39 BooK_ and then add a warning about 2³?? close by
10:39 dubi0us joined #perl6
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10:41 andreoss m: role G {} ; role F does G {} ; say F ~~ G
10:41 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «True?»
10:41 andreoss m: role G[::A] {} ; role F[::A] does G[A] {} ; say F[Int] ~~ G[Int]
10:41 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «False?»
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10:45 andreoss m: role G[::A] {} ; role F[::A] does G[A] {} ; say F[Int].^roles.any ~~ G[Int]
10:45 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «False?»
10:46 andreoss m: role G[::A] {} ; role F[::A] does G[A] {} ; say F[Int].^roles.any ~~ G[*]
10:46 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «False?»
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10:47 andreoss m: role G[::A] {} ; role F[::A] does G[A] {} ; say F[Int].^roles.any ~~ G
10:47 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «True?»
10:47 andreoss m: role G[::A] {} ; role F[::A] does G[A] {} ; say F[Int].^roles
10:47 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «((G[A]))?»
10:47 andreoss i guess it doen't match because it's G[A] not G[Int]
10:47 andreoss is there a reason for this?
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10:54 jnthn m: role G[::A] {} ; role F[::A] does G[A] {}; class C does F[Int] { }; say C ~~ F[Int]; say C ~~ G[Int]
10:54 camelia rakudo-moar 231cb3: OUTPUT: «True?True?»
10:54 jnthn I think the type vars aren't resolved until the role is composed
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12:15 Geth Swapped META.info ? META6.json in 1 dists in https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/8b60cbc779
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12:28 Geth ¦ doc/book-patch-1: 07cd369015 | (Philippe Bruhat (BooK))++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/traps.pod6
12:28 Geth ¦ doc/book-patch-1: Add missing title for but in list construction
12:28 Geth ¦ doc/book-patch-1: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/07cd369015
12:28 Geth ¦ doc: book++ created pull request #1450: Add missing title for but in list construction
12:28 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1450
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12:51 zorin-os is this statment correct? "running 1 thread with 1 process and running 10 threads with 10 process should take around the same time as 1 thread with 1 process"
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12:53 nadim timotimo: Curses interface to Datq::Dump::Tree is done. it allows you to say ddt :curses, $data, ... ; it opens a window, you play around in it, it folds, etc ..., you close and get back where you were. You can do that multiple times of course. Can I wish for some test from you?
12:56 rindolf joined #perl6
12:57 _4d47 On my machine `perl6 -I ~ -M P6rc' takes 10s before a prompt, any way to load faster?
12:58 lizmat hmmm... does -I ~ actually do what you think it does?
12:58 lizmat or does your shell expand ~ for you ?
12:59 moritz and what's in your P6rc?
12:59 _4d47 I think the shell expand, doing same cmd with /home/user is equally long
13:00 _4d47 just some exported sub
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13:01 travis-ci Doc build passed. Philippe Bruhat (BooK) 'Add missing title for but in list construction'
13:01 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/264722969 https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/07cd36901511
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13:09 BooK_ going back to 2??³, this is doubly surprising: 1. one would expect it to mean 2¹. 2. once we understand that both superscript numbers are taken to mean "to the power of that superscripted number", we'd might read it as 2**4**-3, but in fact it's (2**4)**-3 (so precedence/associativity is different for those superscripted powers)
13:10 _4d47 ok much better when module is in empty subdir
13:20 AlexDaniel BooK_: as I see it, the right solution would be a compile-time error or worry. However, the same kind of fix for ²² was treated as unnecessary special-casing so it didn't move anywhere. I'm not entirely sure if 2??³ is any different
13:22 * moritz would bay any fancy superscripts, possibly with the excption of a single digit or a negated single digit
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13:23 BooK_ AlexDaniel: ²² should mean **22
13:23 AlexDaniel m: say ²²
13:23 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «4?»
13:23 BooK_ ouch
13:23 AlexDaniel BooK_: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=126732 and https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/1095
13:25 AlexDaniel moritz: whoa! 2³² is a perfectly fine use-case, no need to restrict it to one digit
13:25 moritz m: say: 2³²
13:25 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: ( no output )
13:25 AlexDaniel m: say 2³²
13:25 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «4294967296?»
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13:26 moritz AlexDaniel: as long as we manage not to shoot ourselves by being fancy, I'm all fine with it. But it seems currently we're shoot our foots :/
13:26 mspo stmuk: last night my builds started to randomly work so I added half of star to pkgsrc-wip :)
13:26 konsolebox joined #perl6
13:26 mspo stmuk: I'll try to plow through the second half when I get some free time
13:27 perlpilot (less foot-shooting)++
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13:31 perlpilot m: say 2?-³;  # works fine  ;-)
13:31 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «13?»
13:32 BooK_ ONOES
13:33 Geth ¦ mu: 3521e795b6 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | util/update-design.perl6.org.sh
13:33 Geth ¦ mu: Load up brewed perl
13:33 Geth ¦ mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/3521e795b6
13:34 perlpilot m: say 2?¯³;  # contrast
13:34 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «0.000244?»
13:35 mspo perlpilot: wtf are those symbols? :)
13:36 mspo took me a minute to notice the low vs high "minus"
13:36 perlpilot mspo: see above about shooting ourselves in the foot by being to clever.  :)
13:37 perlpilot s/to/too/
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13:38 Zoffix BooK_: the precedence for superscript ops is just broken and the fix is a bit more complicated.
13:38 Zoffix BooK_: it should be the same as ** op
13:38 mspo perlpilot: I'm trying to think of PEMDAS in that case.  I could have sworn you would subtract the exponents first
13:38 mspo but maybe that requires (parens)
13:38 BooK_ Zoffix: a colleague pointed the 2??³ and I went down the rabbit hole
13:39 Zoffix https://github.com/perl6/roast/issues/200
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13:42 BooK_ m: say ¹+²
13:42 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «3?»
13:42 BooK_ m: say ¹?+²
13:42 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «3?»
13:43 Zoffix BooK_: ^ in that case, they're not power ops. They're just your off-the-mill No chars (which you can't chain)
13:43 BooK_ yeah, that was the argument in the PR pointed above. I see
13:43 Zoffix BooK_: with ¹?+² being 1**0 (can't chain No, so after ¹ term you get ? which must be an op, so it's a power op), +² (you need a term after the + op, so you get the No char)
13:44 BooK_ it's just because they are listed as numbers/digits  in unicode, basically?
13:44 Zoffix Yeah
13:44 BooK_ m: say ¹.WHAT
13:44 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «(Int)?»
13:44 Zoffix m: say "¹?".uniprops
13:44 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «(No No)?»
13:45 stmuk mspo: :)
13:45 Zoffix m: say (^0x110000).grep(*.uniprop eq 'No')».chr
13:45 BooK_ this is definitely confusing, even if it makes sense
13:45 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «(² ³ ¹ ¼ ½ ¾ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?…»
13:45 BooK_ m: say ?+0
13:45 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «0.1875?»
13:45 BooK_ m: say (?+0).perl
13:45 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «0.1875?»
13:45 BooK_ m: say (?+0).gist
13:45 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «0.1875?»
13:46 AlexDaniel u: No
13:46 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+00B2 SUPERSCRIPT TWO [No] (²)
13:46 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+00B3 SUPERSCRIPT THREE [No] (³)
13:46 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, 676 characters in total: https://gist.github.com/8ae5f326b0da695e8047b754105ba036
13:46 Zoffix m: say ¼?+¾
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «1.75?»
13:47 moritz u: ?
13:47 unicodable6 moritz, U+09F6 BENGALI CURRENCY NUMERATOR THREE [No] (?)
13:47 moritz I... don't....
13:47 BooK_ moritz: same here
13:47 Zoffix u: half zero
13:47 unicodable6 Zoffix, U+0F33 TIBETAN DIGIT HALF ZERO [No] (?)
13:47 Zoffix :)
13:47 Zoffix m: say ?
13:47 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «-0.5?»
13:47 moritz that one I knew
13:47 BooK_ The codepoint has the Numeric value 3/16.
13:48 BooK_ I was trying to show it as a Rat before
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13:49 Zoffix m: say ?.WHAT
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «(Rat)?»
13:49 Zoffix m: say ?.^name
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «Rat?»
13:49 Zoffix m: say ?.nude
13:49 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «(3 16)?»
13:49 BooK_ ah .nude
13:49 BooK_ that was the bit I was missing
13:49 mspo .nude?
13:49 Zoffix stands for .nu(merator)de(nominator)
13:49 BooK_ ah so it's not a general-purpose thing
13:50 Zoffix Nah.
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13:50 BooK_ I'd have hoped (1+i).nude to give something similar
13:51 Zoffix m: say (1+i).perl
13:51 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «<1+1i>?»
13:51 Zoffix .perl is the general pupose thing, though for Rationals it don't always display them as numerator/denominator
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13:51 Zoffix m: say (1/3).perl
13:51 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «<1/3>?»
13:53 BooK_ m: say ?.perl
13:53 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «0.1875?»
13:53 BooK_ why doesn't that give the nu/de version then?
13:54 Zoffix BooK_: because it can be represented as a decimal (which is still a Rat), while 1/3 can't, so it spits out a Rat literal with nu/de
13:54 Zoffix .perl basically gives you the version you can .EVAL and get original object back
13:54 BooK_ got it
13:54 Zoffix (more or less; it's an ideal behind it, but not always possible to do)
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14:01 Geth ¦ mu: b454bd93d3 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | util/update-design.perl6.org.sh
14:01 Geth ¦ mu: Use $HOME instead of hardcoded user
14:01 Geth ¦ mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/b454bd93d3
14:02 Geth ¦ mu: 93aa6aad64 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | util/update-design.perl6.org.sh
14:02 Geth ¦ mu: List required Perl modules
14:02 Geth ¦ mu:
14:02 Geth ¦ mu: Not sure where else to stick 'em; these are needed for the script to run properly.
14:02 Geth ¦ mu: review: https://github.com/perl6/mu/commit/93aa6aad64
14:03 itaipu_ joined #perl6
14:07 nadim http://blogs.perl.org/users/nadim_khemir/2017/08/the-emperors-new-clothes.html
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14:14 Zoffix joined #perl6
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14:22 sena_kun nadim++
14:23 itaipu joined #perl6
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14:31 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: 36f256e0d7 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6.pm
14:31 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Do not name route aliases
14:31 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org:
14:31 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Dupes mess with url_to and redirect_to not knowing what to direct to
14:31 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/36f256e0d7
14:32 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: 577437ab1e | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Root.pm
14:32 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Direct failed "Lucky" searches to search page
14:32 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org:
14:32 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: For that term, instead of a 404 page.
14:32 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/577437ab1e
14:34 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: 95a217fee8 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | lib/ModulesPerl6/Controller/Root.pm
14:34 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Fix Lucky search losing by-description results
14:34 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/95a217fee8
14:36 Zoffix sjn: ^ that fixes the lucky search issue you were having. In the future, would you please report issues to the repo, so they don't get missed? https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues/new
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14:45 brimonk AlexDaniel: Any update on what's going to be done with DBIish?
14:45 AlexDaniel brimonk: https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-dev/2017-08-15#i_15017267
14:52 dalek infrastructure-doc: 1a4a43c | (Zoffix Znet)++ | hosts/www.p6c.org.pod:
14:52 dalek infrastructure-doc: Mention many www.p6c.org sites get built on hack
14:52 dalek infrastructure-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/infrastructure-doc/commit/1a4a43cc7f
14:53 mcmillhj joined #perl6
14:54 dalek infrastructure-doc: 6b5419f | (Zoffix Znet)++ | hosts/hack.p6c.org.pod:
14:54 dalek infrastructure-doc: Fix incorrect scheduling for docs build
14:54 dalek infrastructure-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/infrastructure-doc/commit/6b5419fbd1
14:56 araraloren_ joined #perl6
14:59 dalek infrastructure-doc: f7bb1c4 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | hosts/hack.p6c.org.pod:
14:59 dalek infrastructure-doc: List design.perl6.org perl setup instructions
14:59 dalek infrastructure-doc:
14:59 dalek infrastructure-doc: These steps weren't mentioned anywhere and
14:59 dalek infrastructure-doc: were missed during last system upgrade.
14:59 dalek infrastructure-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/infrastructure-doc/commit/f7bb1c4c96
14:59 ugexe El_Che: if you can hook up your images to travis, then go for it. ideally it would use images if a release is requested (`perl6: - moar-2017.06 - moar-2017.03` etc) but do `rakudobrew build whatever` if its not a release it knows about (this is how perl travishelpers works)
14:59 dubi0us joined #perl6
15:00 ugexe that way you get the fast builds for releases, but can still easily target other commits (just slowly)
15:00 releasable6 joined #perl6
15:01 ugexe https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-build/blob/master/lib/travis/build/script/perl6.rb
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15:02 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: 07e4cc95d9 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | hosts/www.p6c.org.pod
15:02 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: Stupid POD…
15:02 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/infrastructure-doc/commit/07e4cc95d9
15:05 ugexe i'm tempted to changed that PERL6LIB=lib to PERL6LIB=.
15:06 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: b495cc452b | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | hosts/www.p6c.org.pod
15:06 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: Include instructions for modules.perl6.org web app
15:06 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc:
15:06 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: restart with dev/prod servers
15:06 Geth ¦ infrastructure-doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/infrastructure-doc/commit/b495cc452b
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15:13 brimonk AlexDaniel: thanks!
15:20 dubi0us joined #perl6
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15:28 ShalokShalom hi there
15:28 ShalokShalom perl6 can use Python code inline, yes?
15:28 ShalokShalom how is this feature called, in general?
15:29 ShalokShalom i think this makes perl6 a wonderful way to integrate functional programming in Python
15:29 zakharyas joined #perl6
15:29 ShalokShalom and this is very underrated then?
15:32 releasable6 joined #perl6
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: 0840d63c02 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | 2 files
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: Oops. Log range fixed
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable:
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: Otherwise prints commits for the previous (already released) release.
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable:
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: The main problem was here:
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable:
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable:     $actual-commit-old = $actual-commit-old
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable:
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: Maybe I should auto-expand less. Or maybe this case should be caught
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: automatically by something.
15:33 Geth ¦ whateverable: review: https://github.com/perl6/whateverable/commit/0840d63c02
15:33 jnthn Hm, I guess in general it's "language interoperability" or some such.
15:33 jnthn But yeah, there's an Inline::Python module, and a selection of others
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15:38 iyra is there a way to have multiple conditions for a 'when'? For example, given $a { when 3 or 5 { say "found"; } }?
15:39 sena_kun iyra, did you try your code?
15:39 sena_kun m: given $a { when 3 or 5 { say "found"; } }
15:39 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Variable '$a' is not declared?at <tmp>:1?------> 3given 7?5$a { when 3 or 5 { say "found"; } }?»
15:39 sena_kun m: my $a = 3; given $a { when 3|5 { say "found"; } }
15:39 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «found?»
15:40 sena_kun m: my $a = 3; given $a { when 3 or 5 { say "found"; } }
15:40 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «found?»
15:40 sena_kun iyra, ^
15:40 iyra it did seem to work... but when $a = 5 it doesn't work
15:40 jnthn It'd need to be |
15:40 jnthn Which makes a junction
15:40 jnthn or doesn't
15:40 sena_kun then |.
15:40 jnthn alternatively when any(3,5)
15:40 sena_kun m: my $a = 5; given $a { when 3|5 { say "found"; } }
15:40 camelia rakudo-moar 2b8115: OUTPUT: «found?»
15:40 iyra ah, nice
15:40 iyra thanks
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15:42 sjn Zoffix: I was looking for a bugtracker link, actually, but found the irc channel link first :)
15:43 cdg joined #perl6
15:45 araraloren_ junction would work with when
15:45 ShalokShalom ah yeah
15:45 ShalokShalom Foreign function interface
15:45 ShalokShalom jnthn: thanks
15:46 araraloren_ buggable: eco Inline
15:46 buggable araraloren_, Inline 'use C-code from within Perl': https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Inline-C 8 other matching results: https://modules.perl6.org/s/Inline
15:46 araraloren_ buggable: eco Inline::
15:46 buggable araraloren_, Found 7 results: Inline::Perl5, Inline::Python, Inline::Lua, Inline::Ruby, Inline::Scheme::Guile. See https://modules.perl6.org/s/Inline%3A%3A
15:47 araraloren_ ShalokShalom, see we have these Inline module
15:47 ShalokShalom i see
15:47 ShalokShalom i am more thinking the other way around
15:47 ShalokShalom adding functional programming into Python
15:47 ShalokShalom while this list is also interesting :)
15:48 ShalokShalom oh
15:48 ShalokShalom Brainfuck <3 . <3
15:48 ShalokShalom :D
15:48 araraloren_ yeah, Brainfuck is also exists
15:48 ShalokShalom i will create an entry here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_function_interface
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16:07 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: 336dcb4f41 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
16:07 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: Add link to Issue Tracker on error pages; sjn++
16:07 Geth ¦ modules.perl6.org: review: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/commit/336dcb4f41
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16:39 raschipi ShalokShalom: You didn't mention that Perl6 can call C in the Wikipedia page.
16:40 ShalokShalom how is that mentioned on the inline page?
16:40 ShalokShalom via Scheme?
16:41 ilmari https://docs.perl6.org/language/nativecall.html
16:42 raschipi Besedes NativeCall, which ilmari already mentioned, there is a Inline::C module, but it isn't listed in the ecosystem: https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Inline-C
16:43 ShalokShalom i also create a PR for the awesome-functional-python page on Github
16:43 ShalokShalom i think this feature can attract a lot of people
16:44 ShalokShalom since functional programming in python is not that awesome
16:44 sena_kun isn't it uses NativeCall under the hood? https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Inline-C/blob/master/lib/Inline/C.pm#L4
16:44 sena_kun raschipi, ^
16:44 ShalokShalom add this Inline::C module and i add C to this list on Wikipedia
16:45 raschipi ShalokShalom: NativeCall is the FFI. The Inline::Modules also parse the languages.
16:47 raschipi In fact, most of the Inline:: modules will actually call those other languages through the NativeCall FFI
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16:50 raschipi For example, in Inline::Python https://github.com/niner/Inline-Python/blob/master/lib/Inline/Python.pm6#L8
16:51 ShalokShalom what speaks against a add to this list?
16:51 ShalokShalom https://modules.perl6.org/s/Inline
16:52 ShalokShalom *an
16:52 raschipi Because if it's there people will actually try to use it, and the module isn't working.
16:52 raschipi Like I said, why do you care about Inline::C if the FFI is called NativeCall
16:53 raschipi I understand the issue of the citation, but you'll just have to use two.
16:54 ShalokShalom how should the user know that?
16:54 pmurias raschipi: re targeting asm.js/wasm I'm not doing that because they currently don't support basic things like GC
16:56 jjatria joined #perl6
16:57 raschipi ShalokShalom: Read the description?
16:57 ShalokShalom of what?
16:57 raschipi pmurias: Right, they're going for barebones there.
16:58 raschipi ShalokShalom: How do people discover modules and the FFIs in other languages? Buy a book?
16:59 itaipu_ joined #perl6
16:59 pmurias raschipi: running C/C++ stuff is the goal of asm.js (and the current goalof webasm)
16:59 pmurias * goal
17:00 raschipi Right, then you'll just need to compile rakudo to wasm and it's done?
17:00 raschipi rakudo, nqp and moar
17:00 ShalokShalom i use this one: https://docs.perl6.org/language/nativecall
17:01 ShalokShalom pmurias: and Rust too
17:01 ShalokShalom its the next one, probably
17:01 APic ????
17:01 iyra is there a way to modify the members of an instance of a class from inside a function?
17:02 devmikey joined #perl6
17:02 raschipi iyra: sure
17:02 sena_kun iyra, attributes are read-only by default. You can mark them as mutable as `has $.foo is rw`.
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17:03 sena_kun m: class A { has $.foo is rw; }; my $a = A.new; $a.foo = 5; say $a.foo;
17:03 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «5?»
17:03 raschipi sena_kun: Isn't it about modiyng the structure of the class?
17:03 iyra thanks; I assumed that naming the function like: sub my_func(MyClass $x is rw) { $x.my_member = 5; } would work
17:03 sena_kun raschipi, well, it's the other option.
17:04 iyra raschipi: no, I was talking about modifying the values of the members, that's all
17:04 sena_kun raschipi, but I thought that MOP is too cool here.
17:04 itaipu joined #perl6
17:04 raschipi I see it now.
17:05 ShalokShalom done
17:05 APic k
17:05 sena_kun iyra, official docs have quite a good tutorial on this matter, see https://docs.perl6.org/language/classtut.html#State
17:05 raschipi Thanks ShalokShalom
17:05 ShalokShalom sure
17:05 ShalokShalom thank you too
17:06 raschipi ShalokShalom: It can also call C++
17:06 ShalokShalom i think this feature is underrated
17:06 ShalokShalom raschipi: haha, what?
17:06 ShalokShalom you tell me that now? :P
17:06 jjatria joined #perl6
17:06 raschipi NativeCall can call C and C++
17:07 ilmari ShalokShalom: did you read the nativecall docs? it has a section on c++
17:09 ShalokShalom hope thats it now :P
17:09 APic ????
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17:09 devmikey DO I have to use Perl6?
17:10 devmikey Why can't I use Perl5?
17:11 ugexe i dunno, why cant you?
17:11 dubi0us joined #perl6
17:11 devmikey ShalokShalom told me I had to
17:11 ShalokShalom huh?
17:12 b2gills Both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are actively worked on
17:12 ShalokShalom devmikey: what do you mean?
17:12 ShalokShalom i know
17:12 devmikey I'm kidding, relax
17:13 ugexe https://metacpan.org/pod/NativeCall
17:15 pmurias raschipi: you could compile moarvm to wasm and run moarvm bytecode in the browser
17:16 raschipi What's the advantage of rakudo.js, then? Is the obvious question to ask...
17:21 pmurias raschipi: interop with js/DOM will be annoying for a rakudo-on-moarvm-on-js
17:22 raschipi Well, wasm is said to be able to call Javascript interfaces, but I see now that moar would have to support it.
17:24 itaipu_ joined #perl6
17:24 devmikey Why is there perl6?
17:24 raschipi buggable: Hundred year Language
17:25 ilmari devmikey: because TimToady decided to create it
17:25 devmikey But why?
17:25 raschipi huggable: The Hundred-Year Language
17:25 huggable raschipi, http://www.paulgraham.com/hundred.html
17:25 ilmari why is anything?
17:25 devmikey what does it do better than perl5?
17:26 raschipi devmikey: Everything
17:26 raschipi Except being fast
17:26 mst and UNIX
17:27 mst perl6 is much less tied to a unix host environment than perl5, for better and for worse
17:27 dubi0us_ joined #perl6
17:27 mst (I like this fact, I like the idea of having a choice of perls depending on if I want that or not)
17:27 raschipi mst: Perl5 was always UNIX done right, Perl6 is UNIX done righter.
17:28 pmurias raschipi: also I doubt that rakudo-on-moarvm-on-js will be ever fast
17:28 pmurias raschipi: someone can try it and see how it works, I'm not going too as it's a bunch of unfun work to try something I don't believe in
17:29 devmikey Can I use perl instead of python?
17:29 mst raschipi: no fork. no unix domain sockets. file-on-disk layouts don't work nicely with 'find'. perl6 is really not very unix. this is fine though, it's a very good perl6.
17:29 raschipi devmikey: You should. Better yet, you should use Perl6.
17:30 devmikey Ooo, you think Perl6 is better?
17:30 ugexe python is not doing. only alah is going
17:30 mst devmikey: #perl's advice is generally "perl5 and python are pretty equivalently powerful, so learn both and use whichever one fits your brain better"
17:30 ugexe doing
17:31 ilmari *doing*
17:31 raschipi devmikey: Perl6 is certainly much more fun.
17:31 devmikey mst: I use perl, so I'm just happy to know that I'm not missing anything
17:31 * ilmari has started mentally pronouncing all words that end in -oing to rhyme with boing
17:31 devmikey lol
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17:34 mspo no fork?
17:35 tojo_ hm, it seems that there is no IO::Socket::UNIX class in perl6?
17:36 mspo tojo_: someone was working on it recently I think
17:36 tojo_ ok nice, do you know is there any public stuff anywhere?
17:37 mspo I do not, but it was in this chat room
17:37 raschipi I'm curious to see what the interface for sending file descriptors will look like.
17:37 tojo_ mspo: thx, i lookup the logs
17:38 mst mspo: not cross-platform so you have to nativecall in
17:38 MasterDuke tojo_, mspo: a recent PR for MoarVM ( https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/630 ) adds support for unix sockets, but it hasn't been merged yet
17:38 mst raschipi: I'm not sure how amenable the libuv abstraction is to doing that
17:39 devmikey Is Perl6's suport of MS Excel better?
17:39 mspo mst: guess it should be a module
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17:39 raschipi devmikey: If it isn't better, you can just use Perl5's modules.
17:39 mst mspo: yeah, I'm ok with this. I'm just pointing at it as a 'different aesthetics' thing
17:40 geekosaur https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/pull/630 is the basic AF_UNIX support; you'd also need the updated module
17:40 geekosaur whiis
17:40 geekosaur I see I'm slow
17:40 mspo mst: I was worried that it was a go-lang style "no forking" argument
17:40 geekosaur *whoops
17:41 mspo mst: being arbitrarily restricted by the runtime and having no trap doors is not very perl-y
17:41 mst mspo: naw. just there's a difference between the languages in what's baked into the runtime and what you get at through trap doors, and it fits with my "perl5 is a UNIX aesthetic, perl6 is a cross-platform perly aesthetic" description
17:42 mst also forking vs. threading informs a lot of things
17:43 mst (this is not meant as an argument for/against either, btw, more an observation of which I'd tend to use when)
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17:50 raschipi There are some things that are much easier with fork(or clone)/exec, for example dropping privileges/capabilities or changing CGroups/namespaces.
17:52 mspo indeed
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18:28 gilbert Using perl6 from 7/17 rakudo I get puzzling error about 'feed operator not yet implemented' see https://pastebin.com/xzGgcEJK
18:29 Cabanossi joined #perl6
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18:29 gilbert Can anyone suggest a simple workaround for this perhaps using concatenation?
18:32 tojo_ joined #perl6
18:33 raschipi gilbert: It's exactly what it says in the tin: the operators haven't been implemented yet.
18:34 moritz gilbert: @y.append(@x)
18:34 ShalokShalom http://pygments.org/
18:34 ShalokShalom ... and it highlights even Perl 6!
18:35 moritz aye
18:36 moritz we used to use it for https://doc.perl6.org/
18:37 raschipi It's not perfect: http://pygments.org/demo/6635007/
18:39 ShalokShalom report it?
18:39 ShalokShalom is Perl6 suitable for complete newbie?
18:40 raschipi ShalokShalom: Community is split on that one
18:40 ShalokShalom i see
18:40 ShalokShalom pros?
18:40 raschipi This one also doesn't work very well: http://pygments.org/demo/6624011/
18:41 ShalokShalom i like to use a functional language
18:41 ShalokShalom all that looks too mathematical to me
18:42 basket` What does?
18:43 ShalokShalom functional programming
18:43 ShalokShalom Elixir looks a bit easier
18:43 ShalokShalom while its purly dynamic
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18:44 ShalokShalom and i think some static checking let the code look more clean
18:47 raschipi https://rosettacode.org/wiki/A%2BB#Elixir -> try teaching that to someone new to programming.
18:48 raschipi Will take a day to teach them how to sum two numbers and they will have to just memorize a lot of cruft.
18:50 Geth ¦ doc/molecules-patch-3: cb4c913d54 | (Christopher Bottoms)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/faq.pod6
18:50 Geth ¦ doc/molecules-patch-3: How to work around immutable string issues
18:50 Geth ¦ doc/molecules-patch-3: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cb4c913d54
18:50 raschipi Perl6 get's rid of the "line noise" and makes it unnecessary to memorize formulations.
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18:53 raschipi Elixir default behavior in the REPL is to dump memory to stdout after every statement, it's plain to see they try to be really beginner friendly.
18:54 jjatria joined #perl6
18:57 raschipi ShalokShalom: Do you see why Perl6 might be easier to teach?
18:57 ShalokShalom i like to use it in an IDE
18:57 pmurias raschipi: is that elixir snippet the easiest way to do it? it looks like example of something that's written to be cool
18:57 ShalokShalom why REPL instead?
18:58 mspo perl6 is a little big for a first language, imho
18:58 mspo it depends on who the person is, I think
18:59 mspo I know it talks about being friendly for 12 y/o girls but having done some instruction to 12 y/o girls on computers.. I'm not so sure
18:59 ugexe its marketed towards 12  year old girls
18:59 mspo I also think python is too big
18:59 pmurias the logo is
18:59 ShalokShalom i guess its maybe easy to inline coconut
18:59 mspo lua or even golang are probably good first languages
18:59 ShalokShalom which is a functional python
18:59 basket pmurias: It looks pretty straightforward to me
19:00 ShalokShalom mspo: i prefer functional
19:00 mspo ShalokShalom: are you the pure newbie?
19:00 ShalokShalom nope
19:00 pmurias basket: I meant the camelia logo is marketed towards 12 year old girls
19:00 ShalokShalom i use computers all my live
19:00 basket pmurias: I meant the Elixir snippet, sorry
19:00 ShalokShalom i am just plain stupid
19:00 ShalokShalom :P
19:00 ShalokShalom pmurias: fully agree xD
19:01 mspo most young people don't know how to do basic things on a computer
19:01 ShalokShalom i thought its some kind of temporary logo
19:01 ShalokShalom until i saw, how old it is xD
19:01 ShalokShalom mspo: i am 29
19:01 ShalokShalom just like to use a "native language"
19:01 mspo ShalokShalom: I'm still talking about teaching kids
19:01 ShalokShalom so, one that documents itself
19:02 mspo my canonical 12 y/o girl had never seen a text editor in her life
19:02 ShalokShalom with less mathematical stuff in its API, if possible
19:02 ShalokShalom mspo: ah i see
19:02 mspo despite being told how great she is for being interested in STEM and given a year of instruction using scratch
19:02 mspo no one ever bothered to teach her how to *use* a computer
19:02 ShalokShalom it compiles to Python bytecode: http://coconut-lang.org/
19:03 mspo so she go really frustrated really quickly
19:04 ilbot3 joined #perl6
19:04 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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19:04 ugexe if you need an artificial restriction, then use a different language that gives such restrictions
19:04 ugexe but there is nothing stopping you from restraining yourself
19:05 mspo yeah I mean
19:05 mspo perl5 was my "first" language besides shell
19:05 mspo and I still learn new stuff about it every few weeks without even trying
19:05 ribasushi joined #perl6
19:05 mspo basically I'm not much of a programmer :)
19:06 raschipi So, ShalokShalom, like I said above, depends on  what you're looking for ina language for teaching.
19:06 simcop2387 joined #perl6
19:06 mspo yeah the target audience is important :)
19:07 ugexe the teacher is the most important thing, so you dont have a master throwing fast balls to rookies
19:07 ShalokShalom ugexe: you mean which kind of restrictions?
19:07 ShalokShalom ugexe: this is exactly the nub of matter
19:07 pmurias being able to do cool stuff easily is likely more important for beginners than the language itself
19:07 ShalokShalom German is my first language
19:07 ugexe mspo said the language being large was a drawback
19:07 ShalokShalom and the most tuts and so on are in English
19:08 ugexe solution: dont use the entire language
19:08 ShalokShalom pmurias: i like QML for that
19:08 mspo another guy I know uses perl *4* for teaching because it is small
19:08 ShalokShalom being able to do cool stuff easily
19:08 kybr joined #perl6
19:08 ugexe its easy to teach a small language
19:08 Geth ¦ doc/molecules-patch-3: bcc126b4d3 | (Christopher Bottoms)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/faq.pod6
19:08 Geth ¦ doc/molecules-patch-3: Improved explanation
19:08 Geth ¦ doc/molecules-patch-3: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bcc126b4d3
19:09 raschipi So, Lisp is the easiest language to teach.
19:09 Xal joined #perl6
19:09 ugexe i didnt say anything about something being easier than another
19:09 mspo there are a lot of mechanics to get first: using a text editor, using the command line, organizing stuff; then concepts: scalar variables, data structures (various), scopes, function calls, stdin/stdout
19:10 mspo if you get through those everything else falls roughly into place
19:10 mspo for me
19:11 raschipi I think Bash is a good first language.
19:11 El_Che raschipi: if you're a linux user
19:11 raschipi It does work on windows...
19:12 mr-foobar joined #perl6
19:12 pmurias can you do anything cool with bash?
19:12 El_Che raschipi: it does
19:12 El_Che raschipi: but it's part of a unix mindset
19:12 El_Che raschipi: completely foreign on WIndows
19:12 dubi0us_ joined #perl6
19:12 raschipi Yes, it's good to start them early.
19:12 El_Che raschipi: and inmediately useful on linux
19:12 geekosaur and you have to think like everything is a string
19:12 geekosaur or a stream/file
19:14 S007 joined #perl6
19:14 raschipi It's useful to start with either Bash or PoweShell because people will need that for any other language.
19:14 raschipi PowaShell
19:14 Geth ¦ doc: molecules++ created pull request #1452: How to work around immutable string issue when using map
19:14 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1452
19:14 geekosaur powershell
19:15 El_Che I think that powershell is more complicated to start (objects); while in (ba)sh you can look at externeal programs as functions
19:17 andreoss joined #perl6
19:19 andreoss m: role G[::A] {};role F[::A] does G[A] {}; say F[Int].^roles
19:19 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «((G[A]))?»
19:20 andreoss why it's not G[Int]? this causes problem with smart-matching on parametric roles
19:21 ugexe it doesnt happen in time
19:21 mspo awk :)
19:22 travis-ci joined #perl6
19:22 travis-ci Doc build passed. Christopher Bottoms 'How to work around immutable string issues'
19:22 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/264861947 https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/cb4c913d540f
19:22 travis-ci left #perl6
19:26 Geth ¦ doc: 33b7767237 | (Christopher Bottoms)++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | doc/Language/faq.pod6
19:26 Geth ¦ doc: How to work around immutable string issue when using map (#1452)
19:26 Geth ¦ doc:
19:26 Geth ¦ doc: * How to work around immutable string issues
19:26 Geth ¦ doc:
19:26 Geth ¦ doc: * Improved explanation
19:26 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/33b7767237
19:29 Cabanossi joined #perl6
19:32 Geth ¦ doc: 216a733209 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/faq.pod6
19:32 Geth ¦ doc: Minor fixups for last merged PR
19:32 Geth ¦ doc:
19:32 Geth ¦ doc: - Use more idomatic code
19:32 Geth ¦ doc: - Use more exact parallels between broken and working ops/methods used
19:32 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/216a733209
19:32 ShalokShalom raschipi: i already know a bit bash
19:32 programjourney1 joined #perl6
19:32 ShalokShalom i like to write something with Qt
19:33 programjourney1 hello, i am new to perl, limited python knowledge. but i would love to help
19:33 ShalokShalom OCaml seems nice
19:33 raschipi programjourney1: You came to the right place, ask away.
19:33 raschipi But we will answer in Perl6 instead of Perl.
19:34 programjourney1 one thing i am curios about is how \n will be used in 6
19:35 raschipi m: say "\n"
19:35 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «??»
19:35 ryu0 ... what are they getting at? \n is normally escaped to an ASCII control character.
19:36 Geth ¦ doc: 5f5f5098c8 | (Philippe Bruhat (BooK))++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | doc/Language/traps.pod6
19:36 Geth ¦ doc: Add missing title for but in list construction (#1450)
19:36 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5f5f5098c8
19:37 ryu0 Zoffix is the trap master. lol
19:37 programjourney1 inside a string and outside like "string\n" and "string"\n
19:37 ryu0 outside isn't normally legal...
19:37 ryu0 m: say ""\n
19:37 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Confused?at <tmp>:1?------> 3say ""\7?5n?    expecting any of:?        postfix?»
19:38 zengargoyle the 'Think Perl 6: How to Think Like a Computer Scientist' book is pretty much a port of 'Think Python' and maybe 'Think Ruby' series of books.  probably suitable for beginners and not too very Perl 6 specific.  probably the most suitable thing i've read for 12 year olds...
19:38 programjourney1 yeah but in 6 will it be?
19:38 ryu0 obviously not it seems.
19:39 programjourney1 it just seems more natural to me.
19:40 travis-ci joined #perl6
19:40 travis-ci Doc build passed. Christopher Bottoms 'Improved explanation'
19:40 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/264867681 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/cb4c913d540f...bcc126b4d389
19:40 travis-ci left #perl6
19:41 zengargoyle programjourney1: i think in p6 thinking it's just "string" and the \n stuff is taken care of because you may be on unixy \n land or OSX \r land or Windows \r\n land and you shouldn't have to usually do that yourself.
19:41 programjourney1 as a newbie to perl and programming in general i was wondering a good (cheap) source for step by step perl. i understand how strings, objects, variables, loops, ect work.
19:42 programjourney1 is the oreilly perl ref book good?
19:43 MasterDuke programjourney1: have you seen http://perl6intro.com/ ?
19:43 programjourney1 no, seems i will learn some. also 2 more questions
19:44 eroux joined #perl6
19:44 zengargoyle programjourney1: take a look at: http://greenteapress.com/wp/think-perl-6/
19:44 programjourney1 1 do PHP and perl mix well, and where is a guide to make a website with perl and php, or just perl
19:44 ryu0 programjourney1: the one for Think Perl?
19:44 ryu0 programjourney1: grab the free PDF version from the author's website. buy the actual book if you like it.
19:45 basket zengargoyle: OSX uses LF; it's a certified Unix. Pre-OS X MacOS (which was EOL 15 years ago) used CR
19:45 zengargoyle i think that's the most put-together introduction that is meant for beginners, but explains most of the basic structures and stuff and some of the more esoteric stuff.
19:45 Geth ¦ doc: 274dfaa8e4 | (Nadim Khemir)++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | 2 files
19:45 Geth ¦ doc: Changed link in the data dump section of the FAQ (#1435)
19:45 Geth ¦ doc:
19:45 Geth ¦ doc: * Changed link in the data dump section of the FAQ
19:45 Geth ¦ doc:
19:45 Geth ¦ doc: * fixed dashes in nativecall doc
19:45 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/274dfaa8e4
19:46 zengargoyle basket: lol, yeah.  i just sorta mean like reading different file formats and not really wanting to do \n yourself.
19:47 programjourney1 thanks. will read. i guess one more Q, What is the most significant change in perl 6 to 5?
19:47 zengargoyle p6 usually chops off whatever line terminator you have and just puts the appropriate line terminator when you go back out.  unless you really need to do that yourself for some reason...
19:48 perlpilot programjourney1: that's a weird question.
19:48 itaipu joined #perl6
19:48 zengargoyle programjourney1: for me, i think it's actually the precompilation of code thing.
19:49 El_Che zengargoyle: that was already there in p5
19:49 zengargoyle who actually used it?
19:49 El_Che I woudn't use the sha1 stuff if I had a choice :P
19:50 zengargoyle i've never seen a precompiled bit of perl5 in my life outside of examples and warnings to not do that. :)
19:50 perlpilot programjourney1: grammars.  built-in objects.  multiple dispatch.    (one of those maybe)
19:51 El_Che concurrency and sane OO for me
19:51 perlpilot zengargoyle: you wouldn't want to see it anyway, it looks like a bunch of garbage ;)
19:51 zengargoyle and you can't just grep your lib directory to try and find the error message you saw and just look at the source very easily now... it's all in that sha'd repo thing now.
19:52 ijneb joined #perl6
19:53 ugexe grep ~/.zef/store
19:54 zengargoyle that's cheating. :)  but point taken.
19:55 zengargoyle i consider .zef and .perl6 to be temporary things that can be nuked at whim.  and prefer my things in site so it's not as per-user.
19:56 ugexe or `zef locate lib/Zef.pm6`, `zef locate Zef`, `zef locate E0A5C5E5697087B5AECE48D456692BE1B5C87193 --sha1`
19:56 Geth ¦ doc: aeab992995 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/faq.pod6
19:56 Geth ¦ doc: Minor fixups
19:56 Geth ¦ doc:
19:56 Geth ¦ doc: - Get rid of unnecessary and confusing colon-pair syntax
19:56 Geth ¦ doc: - Clarify `dd` is non-standard routine
19:56 Geth ¦ doc: - Reword a sentence and improve its link
19:56 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/aeab992995
19:56 El_Che it took me a while to get used to the user repo by default, but I like that approach a lot
19:56 zengargoyle old habit.  i totally have 4 or more users in /home that are really just me. :)
19:58 zengargoyle comes from .edu solaris giant unix nfs supporting 50k+ just students and you can't just rely on things just being in ~
19:59 Cabanossi joined #perl6
20:02 zengargoyle i would really like a zef wrapper or the like for p6doc like perldoc.  or tab completion.  or cpandoc.  (i'm just not sure if things have settled enough to start on those type of things).
20:02 ugexe m: my $needle = "resolve"; my $dist = $*REPO.need(CompUnit::DependencySpecification.new(:short-name<Zef>)).distribution; my @libs = $dist.meta<provides>.values.map(*.keys[0]); my $found := @libs.map({ $dist.content($_).lines.grep(*.contains($needle)).Slip }).grep(*.defined); say $found.perl
20:02 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «("    method resolve(\$spec, :\@at) \{", "        ?self.resolve(|c)", "        abort \"Failed to resolve any candidates. No reason to proceed\" unless +\@candidates;", "        abort \"Failed to resolve any candidates. No reason to proceed\" unless +\@ca…»
20:02 andreoss m: BEGIN {role G[::A] {};role F[::A] does G[A] {}; my $x = F[Int] } say $x.^roles
20:02 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Strange text after block (missing semicolon or comma?)?at <tmp>:1?------> 3le F[::A] does G[A] {}; my $x = F[Int] }7?5 say $x.^roles?    expecting any of:?        infix?        infix stoppe…»
20:02 andreoss m: BEGIN {role G[::A] {};role F[::A] does G[A] {}; my $x = F[Int]; } ;say $x.^roles
20:02 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Variable '$x' is not declared?at <tmp>:1?------> 3A] does G[A] {}; my $x = F[Int]; } ;say 7?5$x.^roles?»
20:03 andreoss m: BEGIN {role G[::A] {};role F[::A] does G[A] {}; constant $x = F[Int]; } ;say $x.^roles
20:03 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Variable '$x' is not declared?at <tmp>:1?------> 3s G[A] {}; constant $x = F[Int]; } ;say 7?5$x.^roles?»
20:04 andreoss ugexe: do you mean i should declare my derived role at compile time?
20:04 zengargoyle ugexe: heh, i have a bunch of cut-n-paste like that.  just nothing worthy of packaging up yet.
20:05 zengargoyle or i just haven't gotten around to it yet. :P
20:06 * zengargoyle misses `perldoc Class<TAB><TAB>` and seeing what i have already...
20:07 itaipu joined #perl6
20:09 zengargoyle or `cpandoc Some::Interesting::Module` because now POD6 is code and if the code doesn't compile, you don't get the POD6 out of it.  graaar.
20:09 markmont joined #perl6
20:09 zakharyas joined #perl6
20:10 zengargoyle that would be my pick for lamest p6 decision... or ²² == 4, not sure which annoys me more. :)
20:11 ugexe I mean that ::A does not get turned into something your `does A` can use in time
20:13 Rawriful joined #perl6
20:18 awwaiid joined #perl6
20:21 ugexe m: role Bar[::A] { }; role Foo[::A] { submethod BUILD(|) { self does Bar[A] } }; say Foo[Int].new.^roles # i suspect you can do what I think you want to do like this
20:21 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «((Bar[A]) (Foo[Int]))?»
20:21 ugexe maybe not
20:24 dubi0us joined #perl6
20:24 jjatria joined #perl6
20:38 ugexe m: role Bar[::A] { method bar { A } }; role Foo[::A] { my $t = A; .^add_role(Bar[$t]); .^compose; }; class XXX does Foo[Int] { }; say XXX.new.^roles; # andreoss this seems to be getting closer
20:38 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «((Foo[Int]) (Bar[Int]))?»
20:38 cdg_ joined #perl6
20:41 nicq20 joined #perl6
20:42 nadim hi, printing something in hex format is simple with $somethin.base(16) but if I know my $something to be 8 bits, how can i get a leading zero, eg 0x01? something more nifty than sprintf that is.
20:42 cdg_ joined #perl6
20:44 Cabanossi joined #perl6
20:44 raschipi m: (100..999).pick.polymod(2**8).say
20:44 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «(186 3)?»
20:45 raschipi m: (100..999).pick.polymod(2**8 xx *).say
20:45 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «(243)?»
20:46 zengargoyle i guess .fmt() is sprintf...
20:46 AlexDaniel m: say sprintf(‘%02x’, 4)
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «04?»
20:46 AlexDaniel m: printf(‘%02x’, 4)
20:46 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «04»
20:47 ugexe m: say Buf.new(1).gist.subst(:g, /[^"Buf:"] | \< | \>/, "")
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «0x01?»
20:47 AlexDaniel m: 4.fmt(‘%02x’)
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: ( no output )
20:47 AlexDaniel m: say 4.fmt(‘%02x’)
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «04?»
20:47 zengargoyle m: say 11.fmt('0x%02x')
20:47 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «0x0b?»
20:49 nadim yes sprintf is fmt but it is still interesting to see how other do it, ugexe that's almost vicious ;)
20:49 zengargoyle i could see some weird '0x00' and funny search/replace to put .base(16) into the end bits...
20:49 zengargoyle ugexe: hah
20:51 zengargoyle the bit that gets me is the '0x' leading.  it's not really a part of base-16, just convention of what you want to see.
20:53 zengargoyle might as well be '0h' or something, so some really nice pure conversion thing is iffy.
20:55 cdg joined #perl6
20:57 raschipi It could also be at the end and be .base(16)
20:57 raschipi Time to go. Bye everyone.
20:57 cdg_ joined #perl6
20:58 nadim bye
20:58 cdg__ joined #perl6
20:58 zengargoyle my thinking is you'll have to specify '0x' as the leader, and '2' as the expected max range, and '0' as the padding... so you'll end up with sprintf anyways...
21:00 zengargoyle or i guess you could just expect multiple of 2 hex digits and leading 0 and then you just have to give '0x' and :padding or such....
21:02 zengargoyle heh, 11.base(16, :style<DWIM>)
21:04 markmont joined #perl6
21:05 zengargoyle heh, 11.base(16, :style<DWIM>), :style<cisco-mac> :style<ipv6> :style<ipv4> :style<short-mac> :style<canon> :style<RFC-XXXX> :P
21:06 MasterDuke looks like a module idea to me...
21:09 zengargoyle heh, i had a whole library of ip/mac/oid/dotquad conversion things due to reasons. :)
21:10 zengargoyle curse people who store and log mac addresses as 2 16bit ints...
21:10 TEttinger joined #perl6
21:11 zengargoyle and APIs that can't decide between "MAC-STRING" and dotted decimal
21:13 cdg_ joined #perl6
21:20 * zengargoyle lols, 11.all-your-base(16, :style<C>)
21:21 andreoss m: role Bar[::A] { method bar { A } }; role Foo[::A] { my $t = A; .^add_role(Bar[$t]); .^compose; }; say Foo[Int].new.^roles; say Foo[Int].^roles.new;
21:21 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «((Foo[Int]) (Bar[Int]))?()?»
21:21 andreoss it's so obscure
21:22 ugexe not really, it works because its so simple
21:22 andreoss .^compose happens on coersion to class?
21:24 ugexe m: role Foo { say 42; }; say 1; class Bar does Foo { }; say 2;
21:24 camelia rakudo-moar c68762: OUTPUT: «42?1?2?»
21:24 andreoss but MOP methods could be different
21:25 andreoss or why else .^roles is empty on Foo[Int]?
21:26 nadim Has anyone serialized object to send them over the network? What serialization module did you use? just .perl?
21:27 marcusramberg joined #perl6
21:31 andreoss YAML
21:32 ugexe https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-03-17#i_12202817 andreoss
21:33 nadim YAML is nice if you want to read it but the parsing is on the heavy side
21:33 nadim even if modules do all the work
21:35 zengargoyle buggable: eco pack
21:35 buggable zengargoyle, Found 16 results: MessagePack, Net::Packet, HTTP::HPACK, if, Numeric::Pack. See https://modules.perl6.org/s/pack
21:35 andreoss ugexe: so it's sort of a bug?
21:36 andreoss i got this too
21:36 andreoss # No such method 'item' for invocant of type 'A'
21:36 andreoss in some cases
21:36 zengargoyle buggable: eco serial
21:36 buggable zengargoyle, Found 15 results: JSON::Tiny, JSON::Fast, Avro, JSON::Hjson, XML::Class. See https://modules.perl6.org/s/serial
21:36 ugexe andreoss: probably
21:37 zengargoyle buggable: eco rpc
21:37 buggable zengargoyle, Found 2 results: JSON::RPC, Odoo::Client. See https://modules.perl6.org/s/rpc
21:38 ugexe buggable: eco Ser
21:38 buggable ugexe, Found 103 results: Crust, JSON::Tiny, HTTP::UserAgent, HTTP::Server::Async, Farabi6. See https://modules.perl6.org/s/Ser
21:38 zengargoyle nadim: pls .tell me if you pick something...
21:38 andreoss should i golf my case into something reportable?
21:40 nadim zengargoyle: I will, going for .perl right now for the tries. https://github.com/teodozjan/perl-store is a thin wrapper around .perl, will be the next try. then I'll check sizes of the serializations
21:41 zengargoyle eco is getting big enough that i want MetaCPAN like browsing.
21:42 ugexe https://github.com/FROGGS/p6-Ser/blob/master/lib/Ser.pm
21:43 nadim ugex++
21:43 nadim ugexe:++
21:44 nadim zengargoyle: you may want to look at that link, my guess is that it will be the fastest
21:44 Cabanossi joined #perl6
21:45 zengargoyle yeah, ugexe++ yowza.
21:47 zengargoyle well, FROGGS++
21:53 andreoss m: sub foo(:::D $x) { $x }; say foo(10);say foo(Any);
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «10?(Any)?»
21:53 andreoss m: sub foo(::X:D $x) { $x }; say foo(10);say foo(Any);
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «10?(Any)?»
21:53 andreoss m: sub foo(Any:D $x) { $x }; say foo(10);say foo(Any);
21:53 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «10?Parameter '$x' of routine 'foo' must be an object instance of type 'Any', not a type object of type 'Any'.  Did you forget a '.new'??  in sub foo at <tmp> line 1?  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1??»
21:53 andreoss :D doesn't work on type tags?
21:55 jjatria joined #perl6
21:56 andreoss m: sub foo(::T:D $x) { T }; say foo(10)
21:56 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Undeclared name:?    T used at line 1??»
21:59 TimToady m: sub foo(Any:D ::T $x) { T }; say foo(10)
21:59 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «(Int)?»
22:00 ugexe m: sub foo(::T:D $x) { ::("T:D") }; say foo(10) # what you were doing before
22:00 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «(Int)?»
22:01 goki joined #perl6
22:02 zengargoyle that looks like 'T:D' is a name and not the :D defined.
22:03 ugexe well yeah, ::T isnt a type constraint
22:03 * zengargoyle doesn't quite get Any:D ::T $x
22:04 zengargoyle but it's sorta starting to gel....
22:04 cpage_ joined #perl6
22:05 zengargoyle is that like my Array @x is an array of Array?
22:06 ugexe ::T is like destructure but for type, its not a constraint
22:08 zengargoyle ah, i think i follow.
22:08 wamba joined #perl6
22:08 andreoss probably ::T could go into [] just as it does for roles
22:08 andreoss sub foo[::T](T:D $x) {...}
22:12 ugexe yes, role signatures are just like any other
22:14 zengargoyle andreoss: did you speak at TPCiA?
22:14 andreoss defenetly not
22:15 andreoss definitely
22:15 zengargoyle ok, my bad.  the audio on recordings isn't that good yet and your nick sort of sounded like some name i half heard.  nm. :)
22:16 MasterDuke zengargoyle: was it you who mentioned the videos are in post-production?
22:16 zengargoyle MasterDuke: i saw it in p6 weekly and went YAY!
22:17 zengargoyle so from lizmat...
22:17 ugexe m: role Foo[::T = role :: { method bar { 42 } }] { .^add_role(T); .^compose; }; say Foo.bar; # you can stuff all sorts of stuff in the signature
22:17 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «42?»
22:18 MasterDuke zengargoyle++, lizmat++
22:18 andreoss ugexe: is it usefull anyhow?
22:19 * zengargoyle yeah the livestream recordings are a bit hard to watch... i'm crossing my fingers for post-production recordings.
22:19 protium joined #perl6
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22:20 gabiruh joined #perl6
22:20 ugexe well, how is it not useful?
22:20 awwaiid joined #perl6
22:20 zengargoyle my brain hurts looking at two screens at an angle.
22:20 ab5tract joined #perl6
22:20 El_Che ah the main hall? yeah
22:21 El_Che it was hard talking there, with people on the left and right and empty space in the middle
22:21 Grrrr joined #perl6
22:21 andreoss m: role F[$T] {} ; role G[$T] does F[$T] {}; G[Int].new.^roles.say
22:21 camelia rakudo-moar a3b957: OUTPUT: «((G[Int]) (F[Mu]))?»
22:22 zengargoyle and people's heads in the way.  there's a lot of people peering around each other trying to read the screen.  (but enough complaining.... )
22:22 andreoss well, all of this stuff could just be constructor arguments
22:22 El_Che yeah, I adapted my slides when possible to get stoff on top and have the bottom mostly empty
22:24 ugexe yes you have to decide what works best with your design
22:24 andreoss what is the reason for not parameterising classes?
22:25 zengargoyle i've only watched the first few in the playlist as of yet.  still on samcv++ second(or first) unicode talk.
22:26 zengargoyle El_Che: will it be obvious when i finally get to your talk?
22:27 El_Che it was on the last day, so don't hold your breath ;)
22:27 zengargoyle El_Che: i mean more like will El_Che be mentioned in some way that i know the person is actually you? :)
22:28 El_Che good question, probably nxadm
22:28 El_Che it's not about perl6, but about docker though
22:28 * zengargoyle makes mental note. :)
22:29 zengargoyle IRC names are so weird when you know of someone twice but not once. :)
22:29 El_Che yeah, I tend to have different nicks on different platforms :)
22:29 El_Che I added El_Che to my nametag :)
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23:29 nadim zengargoyle: using .perl and EVAL was simple. I had to add another new method to create the object with the argument .perl thinks it should give new, but EVAL  is SLOOOOOOOOOOW and I mean horribly slow. it's at the limit of unusable. A Data::Dump::Tree::Folding object, used to do curses stuff, in color, serializes to around 50 KB for 100 lines, decoding it takes a 1000th of a second but evaluating it takes 4 seconds!,
23:33 dubi0us joined #perl6
23:37 timotimo Ulti: the person on reddit that you promised the WAT module to has asked for you to deliver :D
23:40 nadim timotimo: did you see the message I wrote, to you, earlier today?
23:42 timotimo let me scroll up
23:42 timotimo ah, neat, the curses thing is done
23:42 nadim yes
23:43 timotimo i shall try it soon, but for today i'm done already
23:43 nadim and you can use it multiple times
23:43 nadim no problem
23:44 nadim I have just tried to do remote - curses -folding, eg: you send you rendered data with folding information to another process and can look at it there,.
23:44 nadim but it's too bloody slow
23:44 Cabanossi joined #perl6
23:44 nadim on the other hand sending it to just look at, IE not folding, takes little time and is workable
23:47 dubi0us joined #perl6
23:48 timotimo hm, i wonder how workable it is to do the rendering 100% in the process that "owns" the object
23:48 timotimo and having a "dumb terminal" on the other side
23:49 nadim if you do not need folding on the other side, it's fast enough, although not a speed deamon.
23:49 nadim just sending the rendering is just network traffic
23:50 nadim but having folding means recreating the object that holds the fold information, very slow.
23:51 nadim using the scrolling the terminal provides, in the remote.display.process is good enough
23:52 nadim need to sleep, let's talk tomorrow
23:52 nadim good night
23:56 zengargoyle .tell nadim thanks, and good night.
23:56 yoleaux zengargoyle: I'll pass your message to nadim.
23:57 pharv_ joined #perl6
23:59 andreoss Segmentation fault causes `No subtests run` with prove
23:59 timotimo gnite nadim
23:59 zengargoyle seems EVAL would have the same problems as the REPL, whole new scope and tons of work and nesting of levels.
23:59 timotimo andreoss: either that or just something about exit codes

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