Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-08-17

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:57 lookatme morning
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02:00 BenGoldberg Evening.
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02:06 mspo hi
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02:18 dfghrfghnji How do I make a <pre></pre> block in perl6 pods?
02:18 dfghrfghnji like =begin pre
02:20 dfghrfghnji so that it doesn't mess up my spacing
02:22 dfghrfghnji is this even possible?
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02:59 dfghrfghnji m: my uint8 $n = 100;
02:59 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: ( no output )
03:00 dfghrfghnji m: my uint8 $n = 100; say $n;
03:00 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «100?»
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03:13 BenGoldberg m: my int8 $n = 128; say $n;
03:13 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «-128?»
03:17 lookatme m: my int8 $n = 128; say $n; my int8 $n2 = int8.new(128); say $n2;
03:17 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «-128?-128?»
03:18 lookatme m: my int8 $n = 127; say $n;
03:18 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «127?»
03:18 ryu0 m: my int8 $n = 127; say $n + $n;
03:18 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «254?»
03:18 ryu0 ... Some kind of type promotion.
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03:19 ryu0 m: my int8 $n = 127; say $n * 3;
03:19 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «381?»
03:19 BenGoldberg m: m: my int8 $n = 127; say ($n + $n).WHAT;
03:19 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «(Int)?»
03:19 ryu0 m: my int8 $n = 127; say $n.WHAT;
03:19 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «(Int)?»
03:20 BenGoldberg Hmm, using a method on a primitive might cause autoboxing.
03:21 BenGoldberg m: multi foo(int-->'int') {}; multi foo(Int-->'Int') {}; m: my int8 $n = 127; say foo($n);
03:21 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «int?»
03:21 BenGoldberg m: multi foo(int-->'int') {}; multi foo(Int-->'Int') {}; m: my int8 $n = 127; say foo($n+$n);
03:21 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «int?»
03:22 BenGoldberg m: multi foo(int-->'int') {}; multi foo(Int-->'Int') {}; m: my int8 $n = 127; say foo($n+10000);
03:22 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «int?»
03:22 BenGoldberg m: multi foo(int8-->'int8') {}; multi foo(int-->'int') {}; multi foo(Int-->'Int') {}; m: my int8 $n = 127; say foo($n);
03:22 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «Ambiguous call to 'foo'; these signatures all match:?:(int8 $ --> "int8")?:(int $ --> "int")?  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1??»
03:23 BenGoldberg m: multi foo(int8-->'int8') {}; multi foo(int-->'int') {}; multi foo(Int-->'Int') {}; say foo(127);
03:23 camelia rakudo-moar 3e70d4: OUTPUT: «Int?»
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03:25 BenGoldberg It looks like rakudo has trouble distinguishing between differently sized ints.
03:26 TEttinger that looks like an annoying bug... seems like there's no types being used at all
03:27 TEttinger or the signature matching is not choosing the most correct type
03:27 TEttinger (if it's specified as an int8, it should use the int8 version...)
03:29 BenGoldberg I'd offer to rakudobug it, but I'm about to fall asleep.  Goodnight!
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04:57 ShalokShalom is Perl6 capable to do all these things?
04:57 ShalokShalom http://coconut-lang.org/
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05:04 TEttinger heh, ShalokShalom. it looks like they've been half-paying-attention to hacker news
05:04 ShalokShalom how does this answer my question?
05:06 TEttinger well, it doesn't, but at least one of those things is a misfeature
05:06 ShalokShalom and what is half-paying-attention?
05:06 ShalokShalom like?
05:07 TEttinger well Hacker News tends to focus on certain features to the exclusion of others. tail call optimization is important primarily if you're porting Scheme code
05:07 TEttinger there are some other uses for it, but mostly it shows up because Java doesn't have it, and C# doesn't have it
05:08 ShalokShalom a lot of different sources criticise languages who lack tailcall optimization
05:08 TEttinger the parallel map example they give is given as an antipattern in Clojure's community
05:08 ShalokShalom like the current JS implementation, except Safari
05:08 ShalokShalom yeah
05:08 TEttinger pmap in clojure, or parallel_map in coconut, almost never improves the speed of a map
05:09 ShalokShalom and?
05:09 ShalokShalom in Clojute
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05:09 ShalokShalom Clojure
05:09 TEttinger and it wreaks havoc with side effects
05:09 ShalokShalom is Perl capable to do this stuff?
05:09 ShalokShalom which features are supported?
05:09 ShalokShalom is there a list of functional programming language feature support?
05:10 TEttinger I don't use perl 6 really, but as far as I can tell, very yes
05:10 ShalokShalom xD
05:10 ShalokShalom thanks a lot
05:10 TEttinger i used it a bit
05:10 TEttinger I think ADTs are supported even in the basic NQP layer
05:10 ShalokShalom i see
05:10 TEttinger lazy yes
05:11 ShalokShalom what does this mean?
05:11 ShalokShalom in the basic NQP layer
05:11 TEttinger oh sorry, NQP is the language that Perl 6 is built on, it is an acronym for Not Quite Perl
05:12 TEttinger everything in NQP is also in Perl6 I believe, possibly in a different package
05:12 TEttinger function composition I'm not totally sure on how it works in perl6 because there's some special operators that affect other ones, and i don't know if those compose.
05:13 TEttinger operator functions are more than supported, they go further than in coconut
05:13 TEttinger same with the alternate fixity (prefix to and from infix)
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05:14 TEttinger destructuring and pattern matching I have no idea if they are or aren't or are planned or what
05:15 TEttinger pipelining I am almost sure is present, I think I've seen it in use often here
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05:19 ShalokShalom pattern matching is available
05:19 ShalokShalom thanks a lot
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05:32 ShalokShalom what means this ö in the topic? :)
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05:38 ShalokShalom TEttinger: a developer of Perl 6 seems to like implement tail call optimisation
05:38 ShalokShalom https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11961729
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05:39 ShalokShalom its not possible anymore to comment on this thread, otherwise would i mention, that Perl6 also can call Python libraries
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05:51 piojo For those who don't write parsers, what do you think of perl6's new regular expression system?
05:53 andrzejku loo
05:54 andrzejku :)
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06:47 ShalokShalom Perl 5 can call Fortran, Assambler and other inline too, does this count here as well?
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08:03 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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08:03 ShalokShalom is there also inline syntax highlighting and so on supported in some IDEs?
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09:19 pmurias piojo: even when writing "normal" regexes you should be able to use parts of parsers from CPAN
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09:33 ShalokShalom the gradual type inference works with Hindley–Milner, like in Perl5?
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09:42 piojo pmurias: I don't really parse anything uglier than version numbers. What I'm wondering is whether people manage to remember the new syntax if you don't use it for all it's worth
09:42 piojo Because it's dang powerful. But it's also much less literal than typical regexes. It's more of a programming language in and of itself.
09:44 piojo So I'm wondering if anyone more experienced than me would say "yep, I always use the :P5 version" or "the differences become simple after you use them a few times"
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09:55 tyil does perl 6 do type classes and higher kinded types?
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10:03 nadim it does type objects, https://docs.perl6.org/language/classtut#index-entry-type_object, that may be what you are looking for
10:04 nadim you question is a bit vague, to me, if the doc does not answer your question, maybe giving an example of what you mean could help answer you.
10:04 tyil idk, I was told by some scala folk that it didnt do those things, I cant into scala
10:04 tyil so I was hoping someone in here might know more about it :p
10:04 nadim What do you need it for? it's all good with scala doing it but what is your use case?
10:05 piojo @tyil: or roles. Roles are groups of coherent logic for a specific purpose, like Numeric
10:07 tyil nadim: none, I just want to be able to tell this guy that perl can do it too :p
10:09 nadim tyil: http://danielwestheide.com/blog/2013/02/06/the-neophytes-guide-to-scala-part-12-type-classes.html says it's a trait as projo noted. they can be parametrized, and an be applied to single objects with 'but'
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10:11 tyil neat
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10:15 piojo tyil: that page does seem like something roles (and "but" if you're dealing with a builtin type) are suited for.
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10:21 nadim piojo: I have another understanding of 'but', has nothing to do with builtin types but with instanciated objects.  correct me if I am wrong
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10:25 nadim .tell Skarsnik:  thanks for the help with NativeCall stuff. t's starting to look good  http://i.imgur.com/ay6dLTc.png. I'd like to build a GumboNode with the parent instanciated, did't really get how.
10:25 yoleaux nadim: What kind of a name is "Skarsnik:"?!
10:25 nadim .tell Skarsnik  thanks for the help with NativeCall stuff. t's starting to look good  http://i.imgur.com/ay6dLTc.png. I'd like to build a GumboNode with the parent instanciated, did't really get how.
10:25 yoleaux nadim: I'll pass your message to Skarsnik.
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10:29 Xliff_ .last ab5tract
10:29 Xliff_ .seen ab5tract
10:29 yoleaux I saw ab5tract 8 Aug 2017 13:51Z in #perl6: <ab5tract> i was wondering where i might find information on nqp::p6bindattrinvres
10:33 piojo nadim: yeah, it's for instances, but I was thinking about the article complaining about Ruby's monkey patching polluting the global namespace. It seems like to avoid that, what you would want in that example is to make just the instances do a role.
10:36 piojo nadim: but I'm not sure whether that would work, since I don't know how you'd add your custom adapter logic with 'but'. But I'm new to this.
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11:23 nadim_web It's what 'but' does, only the instance does the role. for a whole class you control it is 'does', there is also 'augment' which is a king of sledge hammer IMO.
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11:26 araraloren evening
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11:33 moritz \o araraloren
11:33 yoleaux 16 Aug 2017 17:03Z <AlexDaniel> moritz: ???? unicode in irc log
11:33 araraloren ??
11:33 araraloren o/
11:34 APic \o
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11:36 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
11:36 moritz ???? !
11:37 moritz :(
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11:39 moritz it seems it's the logging that's messed up :(
11:39 piojo nadim_web: I meant that I didn't know how to supply an implementation when using 'but', but I found that's in the docs.
11:39 piojo $object but role Numeric { method Int { return 1; } }
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12:13 gfldex the changed to .parse will cause quite a bit of fallout
12:13 gfldex as i had to learn for doesn't like to loop over a Failure
12:13 araraloren buggable, eco tree
12:13 buggable araraloren, Found 10 results: Data::Dump::Tree, File::Directory::Tree, Pod::TreeWalker, Algorithm::BinaryIndexedTree, Algorithm::TernarySearchTree. See https://modules.perl6.org/s/tree
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12:57 gfldex lolibloggedalittle! https://gfldex.wordpress.com/2017/08/17/parsing-nothing/
12:59 raschipi gfldex: Can't the new behavior be made optional with a flag?
12:59 Geth ¦ doc: 492a6082ff | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | doc/Type/atomicint.pod6
12:59 Geth ¦ doc: Add documentation for atomicint.
12:59 Geth ¦ doc:
12:59 Geth ¦ doc: Together with all of the atomic integer operations.
12:59 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/492a6082ff
13:00 gfldex raschipi: you can use .subparse instead but that comes with additional semantics
13:01 gfldex using the defined-or operator is a common way to deal with such problems (for perlists anyway)
13:02 jnthn I hope just adding that file will be enough for the docs build to index the ops and stuff...guess I'll find out soon :)
13:03 raschipi gfldex: Can't this be delayed to 6.d?
13:03 raschipi That's what it's for, isn't it?
13:03 gfldex that was my thought aswell
13:03 gfldex but then we will only find out later
13:04 gfldex so it might actually lead to less work as it is
13:04 tadzik wait, it broke 6.c?
13:04 tadzik that's not supposed to happen, is it
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13:05 gfldex it did break one of my modules, see my blog
13:05 tadzik right
13:05 timotimo raschipi, gfldex, timtoady already said he'd retract the commit if there's ecosystem fallout, which you just demonstrated
13:05 tadzik that's how I learned about it
13:05 tadzik oh, good :)
13:06 gfldex timotimo: i would prefer to have to run automated tests for exactly one version of Perl 6
13:06 gfldex but what do I know :)
13:08 gfldex is there a way to force 6.d on a script from the outside?
13:08 gfldex would be handy to have an envirounment switch for that for testing
13:08 raschipi Can't -M6.d ?
13:09 gfldex doesn't work
13:10 gfldex and I don't think it should because 6.d is a pragma, not a real module
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13:11 gfldex you would have to add semantics how and when to override pragmas that are locally scoped
13:14 timotimo gfldex: ideally you'd really only need to test one version
13:15 raschipi But I agree, a flag to ask "will my stuff break on the next version" would be useful.
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13:18 gfldex jnthn: if you keep going like that we will have to ship Perl 6 with a .ttf :->
13:19 jnthn gfldex: I started out asking for function names and of course the discussion ended up with Unicode operators :P
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13:25 gfldex is // calling .defined?
13:27 jnthn Yes
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13:28 raschipi u: ?
13:28 unicodable6 raschipi, U+269B ATOM SYMBOL [So] (?)
13:29 gfldex i'm getting "WARNING: unhandled Failure detected in DESTROY." even though I filtered the list with [//].
13:32 timotimo but it goes through all failures? because i think it would short-circuit
13:32 raschipi In the example in your blog post, $parsed will have Nil, but I think $/ will still have the failure, which ends up in the GC.
13:33 timotimo m: my $counter = 0; class Thing { method defined { say "defined?"; $counter++ ~~ 5..* } }; say [//] (Thing.new xx 10)
13:33 camelia rakudo-moar a45ede: OUTPUT: «defined??defined??defined??defined??defined??defined??defined??defined??defined??Thing.new?»
13:33 nadim_web jnthn: my guess is that this error message is bad "Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Null; VMNull)" :)
13:33 timotimo hm, ok
13:33 jnthn nadim_web: yes
13:34 nadim_web I reported it to the module generating it but I am a bit curious of how it can happen.
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13:35 gfldex raschipi: it's actually from a different spot in that module
13:36 gfldex raschipi: $/ is set by m// and friends, not .parse
13:36 raschipi Right.
13:36 gfldex raschipi: so I was wrong
13:36 gfldex that leaves the question what $/ should hold on a failed parse
13:38 gfldex .tell timtoady canned worms alert up until https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-08-17#i_15032122
13:38 yoleaux gfldex: I'll pass your message to timtoady.
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13:38 moritz another Unicode test: €
13:39 ilmari more testing ????
13:40 ryu0 please none of that.
13:40 ryu0 ol
13:40 ilmari still doesn't handle non-BMP characaters
13:40 moritz it's mysql
13:40 ryu0 mysql doesn't support the full unicode range?
13:40 ilmari not with the default utf8 character set
13:41 ilmari you need utf8mb4
13:41 * ryu0 facepalms.
13:41 ilmari because ????
13:41 timotimo they did the same mistake microsoft did with their 16bit wide characters ...
13:43 ryu0 works for most text, but falls apart if you want to store other CPs.
13:44 gfldex raschipi: that's the line that is producing the stray Failure object: https://github.com/gfldex/perl6-git-config/blob/master/lib/Git/Config.pm6#L18
13:44 ilmari well, they were using utf8, but not allowing more than 3 bytes per codepoint
13:44 ilmari as in allocating n*3 byte buffers for n-character strings
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13:45 ryu0 you can't know the full-size in advance unless you're willing to go to utf32...
13:45 timotimo you could always use surrogate characters ;_;
13:46 krlgrs hi ! I need to use ftp or sftp with perl6, should I use Net FTP ? Is there any other way ?
13:46 ilmari that's only defined when decoding utf-16, isn't it?
13:46 ryu0 yea...
13:47 ryu0 utf8 is what i store text as ultimately as it doesn't make sense to use utf32 normally.
13:47 ryu0 especially if i'm just going to output it..
13:50 timotimo ilmari: doesn't prevent JSON from being declared to be utf8 but also having surrogate characters in them
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13:52 raschipi krlgrs: There are Perl6 bindings to libcurl: https://github.com/CurtTilmes/perl6-libcurl
13:53 Geth ¦ doc: ronaldxs++ created pull request #1456: regexes.pod6 change predefined <|wb>, <ww> to <?wb>, <?ww>
13:53 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1456
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: c92f2f15e0 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | doc/Type/Scalar.pod6
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: Document atomic operations on Scalar containers.
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c92f2f15e0
13:58 krlgrs raschipi thank you
13:58 b2gills bisect: old=2017.06 exit {S:g:i/(.) <(.*?)> <{~$0 .succ}>//}('codeolfg') eq 'cdefg'
13:58 bisectable6 b2gills, On both starting points (old=2017.06 new=a45ede9) the exit code is 1 and the output is identical as well
13:58 bisectable6 b2gills, Output on both points: «»
14:01 b2gills bisect: old=2017.06 exit {S:g:i/(.) <(.*?)> <{~$0 .succ}>//}(' codeolfg') eq 'cdefg'
14:01 bisectable6 b2gills, On both starting points (old=2017.06 new=a45ede9) the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
14:01 bisectable6 b2gills, Output on both points: «»
14:01 b2gills Huh
14:03 Geth ¦ doc: 83d31cb2a5 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | doc/Type/atomicint.pod6
14:03 Geth ¦ doc: Follow spelling change to atomic prefix ops.
14:03 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/83d31cb2a5
14:05 mr-foobar joined #perl6
14:06 Geth ¦ doc: 568cf1e6bf | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | doc/Type/Thread.pod6
14:06 Geth ¦ doc: Document full-barrier.
14:06 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/568cf1e6bf
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14:31 Geth ¦ doc: 265000d7a6 | (Ronald Schmidt)++ | doc/Language/regexes.pod6
14:31 Geth ¦ doc: regexes.pod6 change predefined <|wb>, <ww> to <?wb>, <?ww>
14:31 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/265000d7a6
14:31 Geth ¦ doc: 273f326691 | (Ronald Schmidt)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/regexes.pod6
14:31 Geth ¦ doc: Merge pull request #1456 from ronaldxs/non-capture-wb
14:31 Geth ¦ doc:
14:31 Geth ¦ doc: regexes.pod6 change predefined <|wb>, <ww> to <?wb>, <?ww>
14:31 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/273f326691
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14:34 Geth ¦ doc: b6e5e650fc | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/atomicint.pod6
14:34 Geth ¦ doc: Fix a few typos
14:34 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b6e5e650fc
14:36 testmehere left #perl6
14:37 ShalokShalom so, 6 get rid of this line noise?
14:38 ilmari no, just a different kind
14:38 ilmari more unicodey
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14:45 ShalokShalom :/
14:45 ShalokShalom noisy code is fine for programming newbies?
14:45 ShalokShalom i like to code so clean as possible
14:49 raschipi ShalokShalom: Whatever get's the job done.
14:49 ilmari you don't _have_ to write line-noise in any language (except brainfuck, apl etc.)
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14:52 raschipi Of course cleaner code is better, but sometimes it's also expensive and unnafordable.
14:52 Geth ¦ doc: 2b5abdf42a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/Scalar.pod6
14:52 Geth ¦ doc: More typo fixes
14:52 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2b5abdf42a
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15:19 ugexe line noise speaks more to the programmer than the language
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15:33 raschipi gfldex: Do you usually participate in #perl6-dev?
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15:47 ShalokShalom ilmari: for, for what is it for?
15:49 gfldex raschipi: no
15:49 yoleaux 15:30Z <TimToady> gfldex: $/ is in fact set by .parse
15:51 ilmari ShalokShalom: what?
15:53 raschipi I was gonna tell you that Timtoady left you a message there, but the bot works cross-channel.
15:59 perlpilot ShalokShalom: that's just the other edge of the "freedom" knife.  If you don't want to be cut, you have to be careful.  (though, it's not so hard to "carefully" write non-line-noise)
16:00 ilmari conciseness can sometimes help readability just as much as verbosity can
16:00 mr-foobar joined #perl6
16:00 ilmari it's a balancing act
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16:04 ShalokShalom perlpilot: why do you use knifes in general?
16:04 ShalokShalom i like clean code
16:05 gfldex how do you define "clean code"?
16:05 perlpilot ShalokShalom: knives are useful tools.
16:06 ShalokShalom gfldex: less clutter
16:06 ShalokShalom obvious
16:06 gfldex how do you define "clutter" in the context of code?
16:07 ShalokShalom perlpilot: do you think, you can achieve your goals without knifes?
16:07 ilmari ShalokShalom: not if my goal is to cut something
16:07 ShalokShalom and if you goal is to open something?
16:07 mst C4
16:07 ilmari mst++
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16:10 mst <NamedN> "you were only meant to blow the bloody for loop... ?"
16:10 gfldex I found that when I have to replace a term that is a matter of definition with another term that is matter of definition I tend to talk about something that doesn't really exists
16:10 ilmari ShalokShalom: what do you consider more readable? 'my $sum = [+] @numbers;' or 'my $sum; for @numbers -> $x { $sum = $sum + $x }'?
16:11 perlpilot ShalokShalom: Metaphors aside, the point is that Perl allows for freedom of expression.  A consequence of freedom is that people are allowed to do things you may not like.  And that's okay, *you* don't have to do them because of that same freedom.
16:12 ShalokShalom ilmari: both crappy
16:12 ShalokShalom less symbols
16:12 ShalokShalom clear language
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16:12 ShalokShalom perlpilot: so long as i can express myself with less noise
16:12 perlpilot ShalokShalom: and you can.
16:12 ShalokShalom gfldex: xD
16:13 ShalokShalom perlpilot: can you show me some example code?
16:13 ilmari ShalokShalom: this better: declare sum integer; for number in numbers do add number to sum yielding sum done;
16:13 ShalokShalom guides me "Think Perl 6" into this direction?
16:13 ShalokShalom ilmari: perfect
16:13 perlpilot I guess you can write COBOL in perl  ;)
16:13 ilmari ShalokShalom: then perl (in any form) is not for you
16:13 ShalokShalom just translate in my mother tongue now :P
16:13 ShalokShalom ilmari: ok, thanks
16:13 ShalokShalom which one is?
16:14 ShalokShalom in your opinion
16:14 raschipi COBOL
16:16 raschipi Programmers have a high risk of getting CTS, so very verbose languages got out of fashion a long time ago.
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16:16 Skarsnik Hello
16:16 yoleaux 10:25Z <nadim> Skarsnik: thanks for the help with NativeCall stuff. t's starting to look good  http://i.imgur.com/ay6dLTc.png. I'd like to build a GumboNode with the parent instanciated, did't really get how.
16:16 yoleaux 16:01Z <AlexDaniel> Skarsnik: by the way, does RT #131914 affect you in any way, or did you notice it by chance?
16:16 synopsebot6 Link:  https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131914
16:16 gfldex ShalokShalom: I do prefere less clutter too, that's why I like Perl 6. But I will define clutter different then you. An I'm quite sure you will change your definition of clutter too after you mastered the language.
16:17 ShalokShalom probably
16:17 gfldex my $cfg-handle = ([//] try (@fs».IO».open))
16:17 ShalokShalom do you know OCaml
16:17 ShalokShalom this is what i call less clutter
16:17 gfldex that's actually a nested loop and I would not like to write those
16:17 ShalokShalom so many symbols <. <
16:17 ShalokShalom in this code example
16:18 gfldex simple nested loops introducing two blocks is what I would count as clutter
16:18 raschipi ShalokShalom: So you don't like to learn Maths? Because of the symbols...
16:18 Skarsnik .tell nadim damn that look good
16:18 yoleaux Skarsnik: I'll pass your message to nadim.
16:18 perlpilot ShalokShalom: when people complain about the symbols used in Perl, I tend to think that's like complaining that the letter "k" exists.   It's just a question of what symbology you're used to.
16:19 b2gills without those symbols ([//] try (@fs».IO».open)) would have been something like ten times as long
16:20 perlpilot yeah, learning what the symbols mean and how to use them increases your ability of expression.   This is often a good thing.
16:20 gfldex m: my @fs = <a b>; my $fh; for @fs -> $f { $fh.push: try $f.IO.open }; @fs.grep({.defined})
16:20 camelia rakudo-moar c67d7d: ( no output )
16:21 ShalokShalom Perl 5 supports calling from Assembler and other languages which are currently not mentioned in the Perl6 entry on the FFi article on Wikipedia
16:21 perlpilot of course, you have to consider your audience a little bit.   You wouldn't speak at a PhD level to a toddler.
16:21 gfldex ShalokShalom: I untangled that expression for you
16:21 ShalokShalom i guess the NativeCall library counts for both?
16:21 gfldex I like my version better
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16:21 ShalokShalom yeah, agree
16:21 ShalokShalom and yes, math is my weak spot
16:21 b2gills gfldex: it also needs a .tail on the grep
16:21 gfldex not really
16:21 b2gills .head not tail
16:21 yoleaux b2gills: Sorry, that command (.head) crashed.
16:22 gfldex i want it to blow when I call .slurp
16:22 perlpilot ShalokShalom: do you like music or painting?
16:22 ShalokShalom i quite like it, while my school failed to ship it with joy, most of the time
16:22 ShalokShalom sure
16:22 perlpilot (these things are also rife with symbology)
16:22 gfldex the @fs should be $fs tho
16:22 ShalokShalom perlpilot: with different kinds of
16:22 ShalokShalom our mind work differently, when symbols are into the play, as with sounds
16:23 b2gills gfldex: the [//] LIST returns the first defined value, the grep would return all of the defined values
16:23 gfldex b2gills: it does not
16:24 TimToady symbols are friendlier to non-English speakers than words are
16:24 perlpilot ShalokShalom: now you've got me wondering how to add an aural component to the Perl language  :-)
16:24 ShalokShalom do you understand the syntax of OCaml?
16:24 gfldex b2gills: see https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2017-08-17#i_15032081
16:24 ShalokShalom :)
16:25 ShalokShalom TimToady: thats for what translations are
16:25 perlpilot ShalokShalom: yeah, it's got all those * and | and -> and ( and ) and = and ... symbols.   It's totally weird.
16:25 ShalokShalom i am wondering, why there are no (?) parsers around, who translate the keywords before the compilation
16:25 ShalokShalom perlpilot: less symbols
16:25 b2gills gfldex: that is doing exactly what I said
16:26 ShalokShalom with a clear sense
16:26 gfldex TimToady: I do not agree. Symbols are just fair in that they need both english speakers and non-english speakers to learn something completely new
16:26 AlexDaniel .first(*.defined) ?
16:26 ShalokShalom TimToady: plus, the tutorials are anyway just in English
16:26 ShalokShalom so this is a wanna be argument, imho
16:26 ShalokShalom gfldex: plus this, yeah
16:26 ShalokShalom its a language on its own
16:27 gfldex ShalokShalom: luckily it's a nice language :)
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16:28 b2gills I would argue that `0, 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 ... *` is almost exactly how an English person would write the sequence of powers of 2
16:28 perlpilot ShalokShalom: so ... where's the high-water mark of how many symbols are "just enough, but not too much"?  At what point do you feel the symbology as a burden as opposed to concise expression?
16:29 b2gills m: say [//] $,$,$, 1, 2
16:29 camelia rakudo-moar c67d7d: OUTPUT: «1?»
16:30 ShalokShalom perlpilot: how often you use them
16:30 ShalokShalom and if the syntax can fit on a post card
16:30 AlexDaniel b2gills: I'm a bit late, but isn't ?([//] try (@fs».IO».open))? wrong anyway?
16:30 ShalokShalom gfldex: yeah :)
16:30 perlpilot ShalokShalom: heh, it's that second one where perl fails you I guess :)
16:30 AlexDaniel because all of @fs will be opened anyway
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16:31 ShalokShalom i guess so
16:31 [Coke] test?
16:31 ShalokShalom perlpilot: so what can you recommend me, in this case?
16:31 ShalokShalom next to OCaml and Pharo, maybe functional
16:31 b2gills AlexDaniel: It does more work than necessary, because it calls .IO.open on all of the values before the [//], but is otherwise fine
16:32 [Coke] weird. irssi was still up, but apparently not connected anywhere.
16:33 perlpilot ShalokShalom: I don't know anything about Pharo, but I like Haskell.
16:33 perlpilot ShalokShalom: but then, I also like Perl 6  :-)
16:33 ShalokShalom i see
16:33 ShalokShalom thanks a lot
16:33 AlexDaniel m: my @a = { Nil }, { say ‘hello’; 42 }, { say ‘world’; 50 }; say @a.map({ .() }).first(*.defined)
16:33 camelia rakudo-moar c67d7d: OUTPUT: «hello?42?»
16:34 [Coke] (I see jnthn mentioning he was k-lined elsewhere; wonder if that also happened to me.)
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17:27 nadim Skarsnik: can you give me a hand instanciating a gumbo with a few parents other fields? did you see the screenshot i send you?
17:27 yoleaux 16:18Z <Skarsnik> nadim: damn that look good
17:28 nadim Skarsnik: well I just received your message, so you've seen it
17:31 Skarsnik hm use the module? not sure how to populate most of this stuff
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17:35 nadim Another complex struct self referential if possible would be as good.
17:36 nadim Anything to test with that is instanciated in fact. I tried, without knowing what I did, and the result was a nice data rendering of an exception. at least it died cleanly
17:37 Skarsnik huhu
17:37 nadim :P
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17:50 PerlMonger Hi guys
17:51 PerlMonger How do I run perl6 code in Atom?
17:51 PerlMonger I have the perl6 addon
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18:13 moritz PerlMonger: https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/day-3-atom-editor-support/ mentions an approch using atom-runner
18:13 moritz now idea how up-to-date that is
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18:14 moritz s/now/no/
18:14 PerlMonger I have the package they mention, but I'll have a read through it
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19:00 Skarsnik hm, do I need something to coerce a $ holding an Array with for to get each elem?
19:00 Skarsnik m: my $foo = [{a => "1"}, {a => "2"}]; say $foo[1].WHAT; for $foo -> $f { say $f.WHAT}
19:00 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «(Hash)?(Array)?»
19:01 jnthn for @$foo
19:01 moritz or $foo.list, iirc
19:01 moritz m: my $foo = [{a => "1"}, {a => "2"}]; say .^name for @$foo;
19:01 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Hash?Hash?»
19:01 moritz m: my $foo = [{a => "1"}, {a => "2"}]; say .^name for $foo.list
19:01 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Hash?Hash?»
19:01 raschipi m: my $foo = [{a => "1"}, {a => "2"}]; say .^name for |$foo;
19:01 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Hash?Hash?»
19:02 Skarsnik Ahh thx :)
19:02 raschipi Skarsnik: Also, note the .^name instead of .WHAT
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19:03 raschipi .WHAT uses compiler magic and sometimes doesn't work. If you want the name, ask for it.
19:06 timotimo mostly *.WHAT doesn't do what you would naively expect
19:08 moritz .WHAT returns the type object; but for debugging, I want the type name
19:11 lizmat m: my int $a; await do for ^10 { start { $a++ for ^1000 } }; dd $a
19:11 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «7315?»
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19:12 lizmat m: my int $a; await do for ^10 { start { $a?++ for ^1000 } }; dd $a   # whee!
19:12 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «10000?»
19:16 moritz m: my int $a; await do for ^10 { start { $a++ for ^1000 } }; dd $a; say now - INIT now
19:16 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «9128?0.00583703?»
19:16 mspo m: 5.WHO
19:16 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: ( no output )
19:16 moritz m: my int $a; await do for ^10 { start { $a?++ for ^1000 } }; dd $a; say now - INIT now
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «10000?0.00864247?»
19:17 moritz m: say 5.WHO
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Int?»
19:17 moritz m: say 5.WHO.perl
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «{}?»
19:17 moritz m: say 5.WHO.^name
19:17 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Stash?»
19:22 mspo will there be a .WHERE ?
19:22 mspo (and .WHEN/.HOW)
19:22 mspo oh there already is a HOW
19:22 mspo m: say 5.HOW
19:22 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Perl6::Metamodel::ClassHOW.new?»
19:22 moritz m: say 'foo'.WHERE
19:22 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «140590182265624?»
19:23 mspo m: say 'foo'.WHEN
19:23 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «No such method 'WHEN' for invocant of type 'Str'. Did you mean any of these??    WHERE?    WHY??  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1??»
19:23 mspo m: say 'foo'.WHY
19:23 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «No documentation available for type 'Str'.?Perhaps it can be found at https://docs.perl6.org/type/Str?»
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19:23 mspo not sure WHAT to think about that WHERE :)
19:24 raschipi mspo: I think it could be used in NativeCall.
19:26 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall; my size_t $a; say $a.WHERE
19:26 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «32309328?»
19:27 raschipi Now cast it to a pointer.
19:27 mspo m: say &foo.WHERE
19:27 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Undeclared routine:?    foo used at line 1??»
19:28 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall; my size_t $a; say $a.WHERE; my int32 $b = nativecast(int32, $a); say $b.WHERE;
19:28 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «140438740726336?Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque (Int)?  in sub nativecast at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/sources/24DD121B5B4774C04A7084827BFAD92199756E03 (Na…»
19:29 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall; my size_t $a; say $a.WHERE; my Pointer[int32] $b = nativecast(int32, $a); say $b.WHERE;
19:29 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «139765430248000?Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque (Int)?  in sub nativecast at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/sources/24DD121B5B4774C04A7084827BFAD92199756E03 (Na…»
19:29 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall; my size_t $a; say $a.WHERE; my Pointer[int32] $b = nativecast(Pointer[int32], $a); say $b.WHERE;
19:29 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «140020095017536?Native call expected return type with CPointer, CStruct, CArray, or VMArray representation, but got a P6opaque (Int)?  in sub nativecast at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/sources/24DD121B5B4774C04A7084827BFAD92199756E03 (Na…»
19:32 Skarsnik nice one of the the struct of libxml2 has 88 members xD
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19:55 moritz I'm currently looking for inspiration
19:55 moritz for the Perl 6 regexes/grammar book, I want to write an example project
19:55 moritz so I need some data format to parse
19:55 Skarsnik yaml?
19:56 moritz ideally something not too complicated (complete SQL might be too much)
19:56 mspo I submitted a doc pr counting hobbits from LOTR quotes
19:56 mspo but I think it's lost
19:56 moritz Skarsnik: possibly
19:56 mspo yaml is compelx-as-hell
19:56 moritz the more ideas, the better
19:56 mspo what's that simplified one from the github guy?
19:56 mspo rust uses it a lot
19:56 mspo TOML
19:56 moritz mspo: I feared so. But so far, I'm looking for ideas, not judge them
19:56 mspo you could probably do a complete TOML in the book
19:56 moritz mspo: TOML sounds good
19:57 mspo moritz: it has some weird date stuff but, otherwise, is yaml-looking ini
19:57 mspo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOML  <- I wrote that
19:58 Skarsnik prolog? xD
19:59 mspo regarding yaml: https://stackoverflow.com/a/21699210
19:59 mspo one of my favorites
20:00 moritz Skarsnik: worth investigating
20:00 ufobat a simple lisp grammar maybe, moritz?
20:00 mspo the first go program was an s-lang parser, apparently
20:00 mspo s-expressions
20:02 * moritz writes down all those suggestions
20:02 raschipi moritz: INI files?
20:02 raschipi or CSV
20:02 mspo apache logs
20:03 moritz or apache config file
20:03 Skarsnik elf?
20:04 Skarsnik probably not really interesting to write with a grammar thou
20:04 mspo moritz: that's a good NativeCode + Grammar exmaple.  You can get apache to dump the parsed config in a c structure
20:04 raschipi e-mail headers
20:04 mspo moritz: one of the devs wrote a httpd.conf -> json for me one time just in an irc chat
20:05 Skarsnik http request? (probably too simple)
20:05 mspo GNATS bug tickets are emails + event log if you want more of a challenge :)
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20:05 mspo netbsd has like 50k of them if you want to practice parsing.  I made a perl5 script (ugly) to do gnats2json
20:06 mspo for dumping into solr
20:08 cdg joined #perl6
20:09 ugexe parse the output of RAKUDO_MODULE_DEBUG to create an orderable dependency graph
20:09 Skarsnik can't cvs parsing be easily multithreaded?
20:10 moritz Skarsnik: not really
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: 4fca7715ba | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5.pm6
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Speed up other invoke methods a tiny bit by using a lower level type check
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5:
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Ports the same speedup as 04a774ccf87c241e1bf5540d62854689bfdc835d to
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: other ways to invoke methods.
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/4fca7715ba
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: f52727c9fc | (Stefan Seifert)++ | lib/Inline/Perl5/Object.pm6
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Speed up generated methods of Perl 5 objects
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5:
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: Use rakudo's optimized multi dispatcher instead of checking ourselves if
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: arguments were passed.
20:10 Geth ¦ Inline-Perl5: review: https://github.com/niner/Inline-Perl5/commit/f52727c9fc
20:10 moritz Skarsnik: if you have a CSV dialect that allows multi-line quoted strings, then there's no obvious mechanism for splitting the lines that you could parse in parallel
20:10 Skarsnik oh yeah line size is not fixed?
20:11 ugexe you could parse individual lines to a worker pool though I would think
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20:12 mspo ugexe: I think you'd want to feed batches of lines
20:12 mspo feels like you'd be spending more cpu dispatching vs parsing
20:13 raschipi crontab
20:13 ufobat https://github.com/ufobat/p6-time-crontab :D
20:14 moritz there's more to crontabs though (variable assignments, @reboot clauses etc.)
20:14 ugexe optimally yes. i was imaging how a streaming json parser works
20:15 raschipi ufobat: I knew about your awesome work, but I don't think Moritz is lookin for NIY.
20:15 ufobat what is NIY?
20:15 raschipi not implemented yet
20:16 ufobat ah
20:16 perlpilot normally that's spelled NYI
20:16 ufobat no my link was more like "feel free to steal some grammar code"
20:16 * moritz is looking for general ideas for now, and will sift through them later to check if they are feasible
20:17 moritz another thing I could parse: IRC commands
20:17 Skarsnik meh
20:17 ufobat oh that would be fun
20:17 mspo mm bots
20:17 Skarsnik it's like CMD arg arg arg args
20:18 Skarsnik or CMD args:args:arg blablaba
20:19 moritz I'm also considering a parser for python. Not the full language, but something that deals with indentation levels
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20:23 moritz parsing PCRE using Perl 6 regexes -- how meta
20:23 Skarsnik huhu
20:30 ufobat i guess RL examples for users are most likely data from proprietary systems
20:31 ufobat for the most common things there are already modules, http, json, markdown, some wiki language
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20:36 Juerd Hi xenowoolfy
20:36 xenowoolfy Hi Juerd
20:37 xenowoolfy Heh I inadvertently opened the wrong app and suddenly I am in #perl6.  Sorry.
20:39 Juerd It's a good place to end up in, even if by mistake :)
20:39 moritz yes; I came here 10.5 years ago to report a broken link, and somehow I stayed
20:39 Juerd :)
20:39 xenowoolfy :-)
20:40 raschipi Yet, broken links everywhere. #Perl6 failed you, Moritz.
20:42 moritz ... and I only noticed more than a decade later. Shame on me. :-)
20:42 Cabanossi joined #perl6
20:42 xenowoolfy lizmat and I are driving back hpme in Echt from Cologne, where we had a regular NiederrheinPM meeting. Talking about German Perl Workshop 2018 in Cologne. Liz gave a demo of jnthn's work on atomic operators.
20:44 moritz ooh, Köln is nice to reach for me by train or plane
20:45 moritz and if the organization isn't such a disaster as this year, I might attend :-)
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20:50 ChristopherBotto Hello everyone!
20:50 moritz hello ChristopherBotto
20:51 ChristopherBotto m: dd %?RESOURCES;
20:51 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Nil?»
20:51 ChristopherBotto m: use zef; dd %?RESOURCES;
20:51 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «===SORRY!===?Could not find zef at line 1 in:?    /home/camelia/.perl6?    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/site?    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6/vendor?    /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/perl6?    CompUnit::Reposit…»
20:51 ChristopherBotto m: use Zef; dd %?RESOURCES;
20:51 camelia rakudo-moar a30ce6: OUTPUT: «Nil?»
20:52 ChristopherBotto moritz: Hello.
20:53 ChristopherBotto I was wondering how to use %?RESOURCES. I see it used in other people's code, but don't seem to be able to access it in my own.
20:53 moritz iirc, %?RESOURCES is only available inside an installed module
20:56 moritz basically it's a hash where the key is a local path (or file name), and once the module is installed, the value becomes the absolute path to the installed file
20:56 moritz that said, I've never used it myself, and I'm sure others can explain it better
20:57 moritz if you are looking for more usage examples, git clone https://github.com/moritz/perl6-all-modules.git and then do a git grep im there
20:58 ChristopherBotto moritz: Thanks so much!
21:00 moritz ChristopherBotto: you're welcome
21:00 moritz time for sleeping here
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22:15 b2gills .tell moritz I wrote a Grammar for a made up language for a code golf once, I don't know if it is helpful or not for what you are doing https://stackoverflow.com/a/41770672/1337
22:15 yoleaux b2gills: I'll pass your message to moritz.
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22:29 AlexDaniel If I do something like this:
22:29 AlexDaniel perl6 -ne 'INIT $*IN.nl-in = ‘a’; INIT $*OUT.nl-out = ‘~~~’; … … … … …'
22:29 AlexDaniel am I crazy or is it the right way to do something like this?
22:29 AlexDaniel note that I want to use “\0” for both nl-in and nl-out, the thing above was just an example
22:39 AlexDaniel well, what could possibly go wrong :)
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