Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-08-19

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:16 araraloren morning
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01:51 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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02:23 [Coke] .tell zofffix the docs for that are in EXAMPLE.md, linked to from CONTRIBUTING.md
02:23 yoleaux 18 Aug 2017 20:28Z <Zoffix> [Coke]: I fixed what xtests I could, per our fix-them-on-release agreement, but I can't find any docs on what new code pod tags were added to shut it up about undeclared variables, so those are still failing
02:23 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to zofffix.
02:23 yoleaux 18 Aug 2017 20:44Z <Zoffix> [Coke]: never mind. Found the docs.  .oO( maybe all of these separate .md's should be in one place )
02:25 [Coke] .tell zoffix you asked to split up CONTRIBUT* because it was too big, so I started on that with this. See https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1302
02:25 yoleaux [Coke]: I'll pass your message to zoffix.
02:33 Geth ¦ doc: a52ea3d4c8 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | util/xt-recent-aspell.sh
02:33 Geth ¦ doc: hacky fix to hacky script
02:33 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a52ea3d4c8
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03:03 Geth ¦ doc: 71fe3a3f0d | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Type/Any.pod6
03:03 Geth ¦ doc: Correct return type of minmax
03:03 Geth ¦ doc:
03:03 Geth ¦ doc: Try to clarify min/max/minmax slightly.
03:03 Geth ¦ doc:
03:03 Geth ¦ doc: Closes #1455
03:03 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/71fe3a3f0d
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03:20 Geth ¦ doc: 2615849dd0 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | template/search_template.js
03:20 Geth ¦ doc: remove verbose console output
03:20 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2615849dd0
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03:37 nalley hello guys, I watched this video(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pa1AryylpM) and tried this :( (sqrt(50)+7)**(1/3) +(7-sqrt(50))**(1/3), which should be 2 ) with rakudo. When I use **(1/3) for cube root, the result is NAN; When I use .roots(3), i got 6.  Anyone know why? ?sorry for my poor English?
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03:38 nalley p6: (7-sqrt(50))**(1/3)
03:38 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:?Useless use of "**" in expression "(7-sqrt(50))**(1/3)" in sink context (line 1)?»
03:39 TEttinger m: say (7-sqrt(50))**(1/3)
03:39 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «NaN?»
03:39 TEttinger m: say (7-sqrt(50))
03:39 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «-0.0710678118654755?»
03:41 TEttinger m: say cbrt(8)
03:41 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Undeclared routine:?    cbrt used at line 1??»
03:41 TEttinger wasn't sure if it was a thing
03:41 TEttinger m: say (7+sqrt(50))**(1/3)
03:41 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «2.41421356237309?»
03:42 TEttinger m: -8 ** (1/3)
03:42 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:?Useless use of "-" in expression "-8 **" in sink context (line 1)?»
03:42 TEttinger m: say -8 ** (1/3)
03:42 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «-2?»
03:42 TEttinger well... it works for some negative numbers. strange
03:45 nalley m: say (-27) ** (1/3)
03:45 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «NaN?»
03:45 nalley m: say -27 ** (1/3)
03:45 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «-3?»
03:47 TEttinger that one's... very weird
03:47 geekosaur precedence
03:47 TEttinger m: say((7 - sqrt(50)) ** (1/3))
03:47 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «NaN?»
03:47 geekosaur not sure why unary - isn't higher precedence
03:48 TEttinger geekosaur: so -27 is actually - being called on 27, not the integer -27?
03:48 nalley oh, I see
03:48 geekosaur it's doing - (27 ** (1/3))
03:49 TEttinger there's some math discussion over whether the 1/3 power is defined for negative numbers
03:49 geekosaur for wharever reason the precedence of unary - is lower than exponentiation, so the expression result is being negated instead of the number
03:50 geekosaur and yes, there are questions about that
03:53 geekosaur more precisely, see https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/25528/cubic-root-of-negative-numbers
03:53 geekosaur we often cheat in this case and consider the real root the "only" root
03:56 geekosaur also note, relevantly, the discussion about the _principal root_
03:57 geekosaur since the principal cube root of -8 is complex, something that works in terms of principal roots must produce NaN
03:57 geekosaur er, real principal roots
03:57 nalley I understand now, thank you guys. so for that question i can do this
03:57 nalley m: say (7+sqrt(50)) ** (1/3) + -(-(7-sqrt(50)))**(1/3)
03:57 camelia rakudo-moar 159987: OUTPUT: «2?»
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04:14 [Coke] working on a fix for Rat not being searchable on the doc site.
04:16 [Coke] feels like htmlify got faster.
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04:29 Geth ¦ doc: 71f40b4457 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | template/search_template.js
04:29 Geth ¦ doc: Don't blindly trim to 50 results on search
04:29 Geth ¦ doc:
04:29 Geth ¦ doc: Instead, preferentially keep exact matches and prefix matches.
04:29 Geth ¦ doc:
04:29 Geth ¦ doc: Closes #1477 by making "Rat" searchable again.
04:29 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/71f40b4457
04:31 [Coke] gfldex: searching for "Rat" now shows Rat & RatStr (and other stuff)
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05:10 Geth ¦ doc: 1437b0ee22 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | util/trigger-rebuild.txt
05:10 Geth ¦ doc: trigger rebuild
05:10 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/1437b0ee22
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06:59 gfldex [Coke]: nice
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07:05 BenGoldberg So if you add space to, and remove space from, that file, does the doc build happen in reverse? ;)
07:05 gfldex BenGoldberg: no, if you add space the universe gets bigger
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07:48 smls bisectable6: say <a b>.any ~~ m/a/;
07:48 bisectable6 smls, On both starting points (old=2015.12 new=e3e29c5) the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
07:48 bisectable6 smls, Output on both points: «False»
07:54 zorin-os is it possible to compile only perl's -Pe function into a C program so that its regex can be used in C programs (instead of using c regex libs and h's that ADD regex to ur application but dont actually SUPPORT using its syntax inside of the .c itself (eg using s/hello/bo/ in a .c file)
08:01 BooK I was wondering, are there any authoring tools for Perl6 modules at the moment?
08:02 timotimo there's mi6 and ddt
08:02 timotimo i haven't tried either of those yet
08:02 timotimo there's also miroku
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08:03 timotimo buggable: eco Ddt
08:03 buggable timotimo, Ddt 'Distribution Development Tool similar to mi6': https://github.com/kalkin/Ddt 2 other matching results: https://modules.perl6.org/s/Ddt
08:03 timotimo 1) why is Ddt in there twice, 2) why does it say "2 other results" when it already showed one of the two?
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08:31 BooK I have a "unit module" with defines a sub and a class (so that the class can use the sub internally)
08:32 BooK can I access the sub from the outside?
08:32 BooK and if so, under what name?
08:34 ufobat BooK, https://docs.perl6.org/type/Sub#index-entry-our_%28Sub%29
08:34 ufobat is this what you're looking for?
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08:37 BooK I guess
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08:40 ufobat git status
08:40 ufobat oups sorry
08:42 BooK ufobat: so with our sub foo, the sub becomes accessible, but is not exported. what under what name can I call it?
08:42 timotimo ClassName::foo
08:42 timotimo m: class MyClass { our sub foo { say "this is foo!" } }; MyClass::foo()
08:42 camelia rakudo-moar e3e29c: OUTPUT: «this is foo!?»
08:42 BooK doesn't seem to work for me, I guess my definition is wrong
08:43 ufobat m: module Foo { my sub a {say "a"}; our sub b {say "b"}}; Foo::b(); Foo::a()
08:43 camelia rakudo-moar e3e29c: OUTPUT: «b?Could not find symbol '&a'?  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1??»
08:44 BooK unit module Git::Version; our sub normalize {} ; class Git::Version is Version; # the relevant bits (I think)
08:44 ufobat is "module" like a "namespace" for subs and stuff which is usually not used in combination with classes?
08:44 timotimo oh, i thought you put the sub inside the class
08:44 BooK maybe my useI didn't really know what I was doing then
08:45 BooK (bad network connection: I'm in a train)
08:45 ufobat isn't it now Git::Version::normalize() ?
08:46 BooK $ perl6 -Ilib -MGit::Version -e 'say Git::Version::normalize(@*ARGS.shift)' 1.0.2
08:46 BooK Could not find symbol '&normalize'
08:47 ufobat m: module Foo { my sub a {say "a"}; our sub b {say "b"}; class Foo {has $.a}}; Foo::b(); say Foo::Foo.new()
08:47 camelia rakudo-moar e3e29c: OUTPUT: «b?Foo::Foo.new(a => Any)?»
08:47 ufobat looks like your class Git::Version in the module Git::Version is now having the name Git::Version::Git::Version from the outside
08:49 BooK ufobat: yeah, I've seen messages with that name
08:49 BooK so, what did I do wrong?
08:51 ufobat dont know, it works for me
08:51 ufobat https://nopaste.me/view/3b787bd7
09:00 BooK ok, thanks. I'll keep exploring/learning
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09:27 Skarsnik Hello
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10:18 leont .tell Zoffix I managed to fix the other Test.pm bug, will PR soon
10:18 yoleaux leont: I'll pass your message to Zoffix.
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10:27 Xliff_ Does Perl 6 support reloading code?
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10:33 Skarsnik Not really
10:37 lizmat Xliff: you can mix in roles at runtime, which is almost as good ?
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10:47 leont If I have a file descriptor to a pipe, how can I create an IO::Pipe for it?
10:51 lizmat leont: the attribute is called $!on-native-descriptor;
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10:54 leont How do I use that?
10:55 leont (and actually, I want a supply for the pipe, and thought IO::Pipe.Supply was the obvious way)
10:56 leont that attribute looks useful for native-descriptor(), but I want to use it in the opposite direction
10:58 lizmat perhaps Zoffix has an idea
10:59 andreoss m:  macro infix:<foo>($a, $b) { quasi {{{{$b}}}}} ; say (1 foo 2);
10:59 camelia rakudo-moar 34295c: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Use of macros is experimental; please 'use experimental :macros'?at <tmp>:1?------> 3macro7?5 infix:<foo>($a, $b) { quasi {{{{$b}}}}}?»
10:59 andreoss m:  use experimental :macros; macro infix:<foo>($a, $b) { quasi {{{{$b}}}}} ; say (1 foo 2);
10:59 camelia rakudo-moar 34295c: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:?Useless use of constant integer 1 in sink context (line 1)?Useless use of constant integer 2 in sink context (line 1)?2?»
10:59 andreoss are infix macros NYI?
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11:07 leont I have a suspicion the answer is "it's NYI"
11:08 leont Both for the synchronous and the asynchronous case
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11:11 leont I think it would require inventing IO::Pipe::Async, as well as adding a few small functions to nqp::async*
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11:12 jnthn leont: What do you want to do, take a descriptor and use it as stdin for a process or some such?
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11:13 jnthn (or stdout, or stderr)
11:13 leont Pretty sure how to do the former, less so about the latter
11:13 jnthn We could just add multi candidates taking an int to https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/nom/src/core/Proc/Async.pm#L228 and similar
11:14 jnthn Since all it does is extract the integer descriptor anyway
11:14 leont I get a file descriptor in an environmental variable, and want to react on every byte I can read (for implementing gnu make job server protocol)
11:14 jnthn s/descriptor/handle/
11:15 jnthn Oh, so you don't even want anything to do with processes.
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11:15 jnthn There's not yet a way to do that yet, but it should be relatively easy to add.
11:16 jnthn I've considered using it for $io-handle.Supply to make it actually start an async reader or some such
11:17 leont What I think I need is for NQP to expose a few uv_pipe functions (mainly uv_pipe_open, but init, connect and bind sound useful too), building an IO::Pipe::Async on top of that should be fairly straightforward given IO::Socket::Async
11:17 leont And an IO::Pipe on top of that should also be straightforward
11:18 jnthn Yeah, IO::Socket::Async and the way it does its VM binding would be probably a good thing to copy
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11:35 leont Seems my moarvm checkout is 4 years out of date, time flies :-D
11:37 Geth ¦ ecosystem: dcad25b9d3 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | META.list
11:37 Geth ¦ ecosystem: New module Grammar::ErrorReporting
11:37 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/dcad25b9d3
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12:02 smls Is there a way to have a role add an attribute that is initialized on object cnstruction, i.e.  `has $.a = ...;`  but allow a class which composes the role to override that initialization expression?
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12:04 smls Attributes cannot be overridden, so simply writing  `my $.a = NEW-EXPRESSION`  in the class is out.
12:07 smls Doing the initialization in TWEAK and then overriding that also does not work, because the class doesn't have access to `$!a`, only to `$.a`... and virtual method calls are not allowed in TWEAK.
12:10 leont Doing this well would probably require a refactor so the socket and pipe systems can share most of their implementations
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12:11 Skarsnik m: use nqp; say nqp::can(num.HOW, "nativesize") && num.^nativesize == 0
12:11 camelia rakudo-moar ccf6da: OUTPUT: «Cannot resolve caller infix:<==>(NQPMu, Int); none of these signatures match:?    ($?)?    (\a, \b)?    (Real \a, Real \b)?    (Int:D \a, Int:D \b)?    (int $a, int $b)?    (Num:D \a, Num:D \b --> Bool)?    (num $a, num $b --> Bool)?    (…»
12:11 leont Suspect this is over my head for now
12:11 Skarsnik hm someone tell me how to fix this with nqp, but I don't remember how x)
12:12 leont It seems no one is running the spectest without having an installed perl6. It's failing on a plain checkout
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12:19 smls Oh, `self.foo` calls *do* work inside TWEAK... only `$.foo` calls fail ("Virtual method call $.foo may not be used on partially constructed object")...
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12:19 smls Is that a bug?
12:22 moritz no
12:24 smls What's the difference between those method call syntaxes?
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12:34 smls It doesn't seem to matter if `foo` is an auto-accessor or a manually declared method... `self.foo` works in TWEAK, but `$.foo` doesn't.
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12:36 smls p6doc doesn't seem to describe any intentional difference between the syntaxes. It claims "Within methods, $.origin works the same as self.origin": https://docs.perl6.org/language/objects#self
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: 4a2bc0eaba | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/testing.pod6
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: Document Test.pm is not thread safe and likely won't be
12:37 Geth ¦ doc:
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: There are plans to make Testo.pm thread safe, but the module is
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: still in alpha stage; just mention "ecosystem modules" as a possible
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: solution for threadiness for now.
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/4a2bc0eaba
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: 72cb637a05 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/testing.pod6
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: s/that/the/;
12:37 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/72cb637a05
12:39 smls Then again, that p6doc section also claims that `self` is a type object inside BUILD, which isn't the case:
12:39 smls m:  class A { submethod BUILD { say self.defined } };  A.new;
12:39 camelia rakudo-moar ccf6da: OUTPUT: «True?»
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12:44 smls moritz: Should't I RT that discrepancy between the `$.method` and `self.method` syntaxes?
12:44 jnthn smls: It's by design.
12:45 jnthn (self.foo is an escape hatch for when you're sure you know you want to make a virtual call)
12:45 smls Why wouldn't one want to make a virtual call?
12:46 moritz because the BUILD of subclasses hasn't run yet
12:46 moritz so the object isn't fully initialized
12:47 moritz and methods from child classes might not work yet
12:47 smls Ah.
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12:56 smls And TWEAK is just a second round of BUILD? No differenced between them?
12:56 smls i.e:   BUILD (superclass) --> BUILD (subclass) --> TWEAK (superclass) --> TWEAK (subclass)   ?
12:56 smls *differences
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13:07 atroxaper Hello all. Am I right that I can 'use' something only from .pm file but not from .p6? I wanted create .p6 with sub declaration. And .t which imports the sub and tests it.
13:08 leont .pm6
13:09 atroxaper As I understand I have to write NAME.pm file with declaration of NAME module. After that I can import NAME module and it's exports.
13:10 Skarsnik yes
13:10 Skarsnik well prefer .pm6 ^^
13:10 atroxaper Ok. Asked just for sure ^^
13:12 atroxaper And what extension is prefered for scripts? .p6 or .pl6? I see different examples on the github.
13:12 Skarsnik I use p6
13:12 Skarsnik but if it's clear it's not perl 5 it's fine I guess ^^
13:13 atroxaper I will then. Thanks.
13:14 smls I use .p6 for scripts and .pm for modules, because I like 2-letter suffixes... :)
13:14 smls I make sure to add the line `use v6;` at the top of every module though, so no-one thinks it's Perl 5.
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13:22 andreoss is there a way to specify into which class a role will be mixed in?
13:23 andreoss (known as self-type in Scala)
13:24 hahainternet i'm interested in how you could /not/ specify which class, but i don't know enough about p6 to help, intrigued by the problem though
13:27 Skarsnik_ hm
13:28 leont possibly ::?CLASS
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13:30 araraloren smls?actual it is use v6.c;
13:30 smls araraloren: Good point, I should use that instead.
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13:32 araraloren and you can use v6.d.PREVIEW
13:34 andreoss m: class Z {...}; role F { submethod BUILD(::?CLASS:D $self: |c where $self ~~ Z) { } } ; class Z does F {} ; Z.new.say
13:34 camelia rakudo-moar ccf6da: OUTPUT: «Z.new?»
13:36 andreoss is it even possible to know stuff like that at compile time?
13:36 andreoss i.e which class is using this role
13:37 Skarsnik Not really since you can compose at run time
13:38 Skarsnik m: class A {}: role R {}; my A $a; $a does R; say $a ~~ R;
13:38 camelia rakudo-moar ccf6da: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Confused?at <tmp>:1?------> 3class A {}:7?5 role R {}; my A $a; $a does R; say $a ~?    expecting any of:?        colon pair?»
13:39 Skarsnik m: class A {}; role R {}; my A $a; $a does R; say $a ~~ R;
13:39 camelia rakudo-moar ccf6da: OUTPUT: «Cannot use 'does' operator with a type object.?  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1??»
13:39 andreoss m: class A {}; role R {}; my A $a .=new ; $a does R; say $a ~~ R;
13:39 camelia rakudo-moar ccf6da: OUTPUT: «True?»
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13:51 andreoss m: sub infix:«>>»($a, $b) { $a +> $b } ; say (1 >> 2);
13:51 camelia rakudo-moar 26287a: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Unsupported use of >> to do right shift; in Perl 6 please use +> or ~>?at <tmp>:1?------> 3ix:«>>»($a, $b) { $a +> $b } ; say (1 >>7?5 2);?»
13:52 andreoss can i turn it off?
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14:00 Zoffix Is dnmfarrell aka David Farrell here?
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14:01 Zoffix andreoss: not at the moment
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14:07 AlexDaniel .seen dnmfarrell
14:07 yoleaux I saw dnmfarrell 16 Nov 2016 21:47Z in #perl6: <dnmfarrell> hey folks, thought you might like to know there is a new kickstarter project for "Learning Perl 6" written by brian d foy and  published by O'Reilly https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1422827986/learning-perl-6
14:13 Zoffix But anyway: the problem is dnmfarrell silently deleted 4 modules off github; we just wanted to know how to proceed. Currently gonna recover from forks and copies and store them in perl6-community-modules
14:24 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 5bde1116ee | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META.list
14:24 Geth ¦ ecosystem: System::Passwd is gone, move to perl6-community-modules
14:24 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/5bde1116ee
14:25 AlexDaniel here's one
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14:43 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 0f6fc54807 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META.list
14:43 Geth ¦ ecosystem: URI::Encode is gone, move to perl6-community-modules
14:43 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/0f6fc54807
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14:49 lucasb I have no idea what atomicint is for, just saw the name... Wasn't there bikeshed to name it something shorter like "aint" ?
14:51 Zoffix lucasb: atomicint is an int of size that can be safely operated on atomically
14:51 Zoffix using new atomic ops
14:52 Zoffix m: my atomicint $x = 42; say $x?++; say $x
14:52 camelia rakudo-moar 26287a: OUTPUT: «42?43?»
14:52 lucasb Zoffix: right, thanks. I was just wondering about the huffmanization of the name, but I guess "atomicint" is ok
14:52 Zoffix As for "aint"... other than a chuckle about its similarity to the slang for "am not", it's a terrible name.
14:53 lucasb I guess you are right :)
15:02 jnthn Also atomicuint isn't an unreasonable future request, and I don't think we want auint :P
15:03 jnthn I think in terms of Perl 6 users who will actually use this feature, we're talking a fraction of a percent, so the huffman argument for aint ain't existent :)
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15:15 pmurias why is it atomicint rather than atomic-int?
15:16 jnthn *sigh*
15:17 jnthn Why is it uint rather than u-int? Why is it FatRat rather than Fat-Rat?
15:17 jnthn Because we consistently don't hyphen type names.
15:19 pmurias ok, seems like a decent reason ;)
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16:14 moritz I need some idea for my module
16:14 moritz I've published https://github.com/moritz/Grammar-ErrorReporting earlier today
16:15 moritz it's basically a role that produce an "error" method, much like rakudo's "panic", which does some fancy error formating etc.
16:15 moritz and also a FAILGOAL method
16:16 moritz now I'm considering how to optionally use the high-water mark method as illustrated in https://gist.github.com/moritz/9c8e1a5f48f3f61355dfd245a999a66c
16:16 moritz and still have it fit into a mostly unobstrusive interface
16:16 moritz should it be a separate role? or
16:17 moritz or only the option to use those dynamic variables in error reporting, and force people to write their own methods for setting the dynamic variables?
16:26 smls moritz: I don't suppose it can be made so that name of the nearest parent rule that would have become part of the AST, is printed to the user?
16:27 smls e.g. if `TOP` calls `<foo>` which calls <.bar>, and an error happens in rule `bar`, it would print "error in rule foo"
16:27 smls Because `bar` was called with the dot that excludes it from the AST.
16:30 moritz smls: I don't know how to do that
16:30 moritz smls: but what's in the gist works pretty well
16:31 moritz it's the name of the last rule that advanced the parse and called ws
16:35 smls How about a trait that can be applied to user-facing rules (i.e. ones whose names should be printed in that way)?
16:37 moritz that could work
16:37 moritz callframe(1).code gives access to the code object
16:38 moritz and a trait could mix in a role that we can check
16:38 smls And you could walk the callstack and find the next-highest one that has the trait, right?
16:39 moritz yes, though that might get expensive
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16:40 smls Can you merely store a reference to the call stack in $*LASTRULE, and do the walking once an actual error has occured?
16:40 khw joined #perl6
16:42 moritz no, at that point the stack frames don't exist anymore
16:43 MasterDuke moritz: it would be nice to see the error output in the example given in README.md for https://github.com/moritz/Grammar-ErrorReporting
16:44 smls moritz: Approached from the other direction: Maybe the trait initialization code could hack the $*HIGHWATER and $*LASTRULE modification code directly into the rules it's applied to, thus not making the precudure dependent on `ws`?
16:45 moritz smls: don't know if that's possible, but probably worth investigating
16:45 moritz MasterDuke: done
16:46 MasterDuke cool
16:46 smls indeed :)
16:47 [Coke] If no one is looking at docs.perl6.org right now, I'll get back on that.
16:47 andrzejku joined #perl6
16:48 Zoffix I don't think anyone is. There was some unicode problem in MoarVM, so samcv didn't have time.
16:50 [Coke] ok. I am going to skip apt-get and do it the hard way.
16:50 [Coke] Zoffix++ for getting it as far as it did get.
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 24f489f949 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META.list
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem: These modules simply no longer exist
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Nothing depends on them, so we are not going to
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem: restore them in perl6-community-modules.
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Those who are interested should feel free to fork.
16:57 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/24f489f949
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17:08 moritz btw I've started Grammar::ErrorReporting with ddt, https://github.com/kalkin/Ddt
17:09 moritz nice user experience so far
17:14 mst Grammar::ErrorReporting ? something to give useful responses on failed parses?
17:14 pmurias moritz: Grammar::ErrorReporting is GPL licenced? :/
17:14 moritz mst: yes, that's the plan
17:14 moritz pmurias: what would you prefer?
17:15 moritz pmurias: if you want something more liberal, send a PR :-)
17:15 mst that would be excellent
17:16 moritz it has annoyed me for quite some time that Perl 6 has all that awesome stuff, but doesn't expose it to the user
17:17 moritz and now I want something that I can use in examples in my book :-)
17:17 moritz and it seems that TimToady++ has started going down that road too, with exposing highwater stuff in failed matches
17:18 mst :D
17:18 mst I found it a little disappointing too, but didn't have time to learn enough to figure out if I could help (sorry)
17:19 moritz no worries
17:19 moritz I was much deeper entrenched, and hadn't bothered earlier
17:23 [Coke] looks like we also had a doc build going for 24h or so. I *think* I have cleared the blockage, will know in 10s of minutes.
17:26 tyil[m] pmurias: whats wrong with being gpl licensed?
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17:48 bonf hello, can someone help me out with NativeCall? I'm trying to figure out how to define a fixed size array in a CStruct.
17:54 [Coke] looks like docs has been updated.
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18:01 Geth ¦ doc: 75bb88a139 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | CONTRIBUTING.md
18:01 Geth ¦ doc: note npm dep
18:01 Geth ¦ doc:
18:01 Geth ¦ doc: Closes #1457
18:01 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/75bb88a139
18:09 Skarsnik_ bonf, you can't
18:09 Skarsnik I mean you can put the size
18:09 Skarsnik *can't
18:09 Skarsnik it will just be a CArray[mytype]
18:09 Geth ¦ doc: f1ae818e9e | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | template/footer.html
18:09 Geth ¦ doc: bust browser cache
18:09 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f1ae818e9e
18:10 bonf my current solution is having a CArray[uint8] instead of the entire struct :/
18:11 Skarsnik ?
18:12 Skarsnik You can have class A is repr('CStruct') { has CArray[uint8] $foo}
18:12 bonf I mean, let's say my c struct is something like {char str[10]; int n;}
18:13 Skarsnik I should do a gptable bot x)
18:15 Skarsnik well it will be class A { has Pointer[int8] $.str; has int32 $.n};
18:15 Skarsnik *CArray
18:15 Skarsnik not Pointer
18:16 bonf let me check again, but I couldn't get it to work this way
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18:18 Skarsnik huggable, module App::GPTrixie
18:18 huggable Skarsnik, nothing found
18:19 Skarsnik huggable, help
18:19 huggable Skarsnik, nothing found
18:19 AlexDaniel buggable, eco App::GPTrixie
18:20 buggable AlexDaniel, App::GPTrixie 'Generate NativeCall code from C headers file': https://github.com/Skarsnik/gptrixie
18:20 Skarsnik thx :)
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18:25 Geth ¦ doc: 5a07da9d19 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | xt/words.pws
18:25 Geth ¦ doc: add words, sort
18:25 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5a07da9d19
18:25 Geth ¦ doc: 187290e984 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
18:25 Geth ¦ doc: Link to the community page.
18:25 Geth ¦ doc:
18:25 Geth ¦ doc: Closes #1001
18:25 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/187290e984
18:27 bonf Skarsnik, doesn't work, I get random garbage in my string. It does work if I define 10 "has uint8 $.char1; has uint8 $.char2 ..." instead of the CArray.
18:27 Skarsnik this should not work, since it's a pointer
18:27 Skarsnik hm try using HAS ?
18:28 Skarsnik nvm
18:28 Skarsnik what is your original struct?
18:29 bonf {char str[10]; int n;}
18:29 bonf it's a dummy struct, the actual one has a larger buffer
18:29 Skarsnik this is weird. can you to a sizeof() the struct?
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18:31 bonf 16 :O
18:31 bonf alignment issue I guess?
18:32 leont Yeah, that is sensible alignment
18:33 bonf well nativecall was smart enough to figure it out when I had 10 separate uint8s
18:34 Skarsnik you can do a nativesizeof to compare in perl6 code
18:35 [Coke] ffn
18:36 bonf well nativesizeof is 16 but that doesn't change if I change the array size
18:37 bonf is it important when I init the CArray?
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18:39 [Coke] docs not quite right yet; working from shell, but not cron.
18:40 Skarsnik I am confused x)
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18:41 Skarsnik bonf, I am confused, Did C really inlined all the content of the array in the struct?
18:42 bonf yes
18:42 bonf because it's a char[] and not a char*
18:43 pmurias tyil[m]: most of the Perl 6 ecosystem thus far is Artistic 2
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18:43 tyil pmurias: thats not an argument against gpl
18:44 tyil I dont see why "but its not what everything else is" is bad tbhh
18:44 tyil unless "everything else" is an actual standard thats being followed
18:45 pmurias tyil: the argument is that gpl for a library is potential trouble for someone that will try to use it from a closed source app that he distributes
18:45 Skarsnik bonf, oh right. I think it's something NYI
18:45 ijneb joined #perl6
18:45 pmurias tyil: everyone using the same license is a benefit as we have less things to worry about
18:45 ijneb What would you guys recommend as a graphics library for writing a raytracer with?
18:46 ijneb So far I've found Cairo to be the fastest
18:46 tyil I personally dislike closed source very much, so I dont see that as anything bad
18:46 bonf Skarsnik, I see
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18:46 tyil if the author dislikes people (ab)using their software for proprietary use, why should they not use the gpl
18:47 moritz in this case, I'm fine with a more liberal license. PRs will be accepted.
18:47 tyil moritz: to me its more of a moral point
18:48 bonf Skarsnik, thanks for the help anyway
18:48 tyil if you want to (ab)use software for personal gain only, you can always make it yourself if you hate the community so much
18:50 Skarsnik bonf, a workaround could be to create a type that has a nativesize of the array
18:54 pmurias tyil: hating the community? you know that you can contribute to an open source library while using it in a closed source project or even in somethin straight up evil?
18:55 tyil yes, and you are assured of that using gpl
18:55 [Coke] as someone who just went through this on the c ommercial side, the gpl is a non-starter. If that's your goal, then sure, GPL.
18:55 tyil the only thing a "more liberal" license would do here is enabling the bad aspects
18:57 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall::Types; foo     is Int is ctype("long")     is repr("P6int") is nativesize(128){ }; my foo $a; say $a.nativesize();
18:57 camelia rakudo-moar fcf61f: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?Two terms in a row?at <tmp>:1?------> 3use NativeCall::Types; foo     is Int7?5 is ctype("long")     is repr("P6int") i?    expecting any of:?        infix?        infix stopper?        p…»
18:57 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall::Types; my native foo is Int is ctype("long")     is repr("P6int") is nativesize(128){ }; my foo $a; say $a.nativesize();
18:57 camelia rakudo-moar fcf61f: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?MVMP6int: Unsupported int size (128bit)?at <tmp>:1?»
18:58 Skarsnik damn
18:58 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall::Types; my native foo is repr("P6int") is nativesize(128){ }; my foo $a; say $a.nativesize();
18:58 camelia rakudo-moar fcf61f: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?MVMP6int: Unsupported int size (128bit)?at <tmp>:1?»
18:58 ugexe a more liberal license enables more potential usage
18:59 Skarsnik m: use NativeCall::Types; my native foo is nativesize(128){ }; my foo $a; say $a.nativesize();
18:59 camelia rakudo-moar fcf61f: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>?P6opaque: missing attribute protocol in compose of foo?at <tmp>:1?»
18:59 Skarsnik whatever xD
19:00 [Coke] battery about to die here; I'll at least run the doc build manually this evening again if needed, getting it to run in cron again should be doable.
19:02 b2gills m: sub bar(UInt:D @nums) {...}; my UInt:D @nums = (1, 2); bar @nums # https://stackoverflow.com/q/45774740
19:02 camelia rakudo-moar fcf61f: OUTPUT: «Constraint type check failed in binding to parameter '@nums'; expected UInt but got Array[UInt:D] (Array[UInt:D].new(1, 2))?  in sub bar at <tmp> line 1?  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1??»
19:04 pmurias tyil: you can still use gpl code in closed source apps provided you don't distribute your application
19:05 pmurias tyil: and in say Perl 5 I would guess most apps aren't distributed as they run on the backend size
19:05 pmurias s/size/side
19:06 MasterDuke b2gills: looks like https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=131381 is related
19:06 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 3f8cce4753 | (Moritz Lenz)++ | server/updatelist.pl
19:06 Geth ¦ ecosystem: use JSON::MaybeXS; closes #362
19:06 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/3f8cce4753
19:06 tyil pmurias: then why not keep it gpl
19:06 tyil so the community can benefit from improvements by guarantee of the license
19:07 Skarsnik I think only the gplv3 has close for stuff run on vm/interpreter?
19:08 bonf Skarsnik, I'm not sure how to pull off what you're suggesting there, but I just use one big CArray instead of the struct for now
19:08 pmurias tyil: the gpl doesn't guarantee that it just a random annoyance for the people who will want to have say a closed source Perl 6 *desktop app* or whose legal departament doesn't like GPL
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19:10 b2gills MasterDuke: Thanks, I added a comment pointing to it on https://stackoverflow.com/q/45774740
19:10 raschipi But the point tyil is making is that this is his exact objective, pmurias.
19:11 MasterDuke b2gills++
19:11 tyil I despise closed source software on moral grounds, you can make a desktop app with open source just fine
19:11 tyil and gpl licensed software seems very able to become popular as well
19:12 pmurias raschipi: if you want to annoy people you don't like then I agree that GPL has a benefit
19:12 tyil theyre choosing to be annoyed by it, chosing a license isnt done with the intent to annoy
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19:12 tyil they are annoyed by it due to a faulty moral compass imo
19:13 tyil but the fact is they are the ones deciding to be annoyed by it, not me or whoever else set the license
19:15 raschipi In my opinion, the entire fault lies on the copyright system itself, it only purpose is to annoy. Anyway, you have a problem with someone who witholds some rights but not with people that hithhold all of them, pmurias?
19:17 tyil raschipi: the copyright system is faulty at its core, yes. the gpl is a way to get to a situation thats better by playing with the rules that have been set
19:17 b2gills I think BSD software has a larger ability to improve all of software, because it can be used in closed source software.
19:17 b2gills I also like GPL because it makes it harder for companies to “abuse” the freedom like the can with BSD.
19:17 b2gills Basically I try not to think about it or my neural net might fuse ^w^w^w^w I mean it might give me a headache.
19:18 pmurias raschipi: I dislike closed source libraries a lot more and I wouldn't develop any closed source stuff for free
19:18 pmurias raschipi: and I would hesitate in even using a closed source library a lot
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19:19 ugexe programmers can be annoyed at the stuff their overlords make them use
19:20 tyil they can be annoyed at my choice to use tabs for indentation (its objectively the only choice after all), but that doesnt mean I should not use it
19:21 ugexe you said they are choosing it despite being annoyed by it. im saying they are not choosing it in most cases
19:23 ugexe additional mind share at the cost of software morality. and the software morality bit only really holds if you have the backing to pursue enforcement
19:23 b2gills If programmers aren't allowed to use GPL code. They might dislike it being GPL, because that makes it so they have to use a worse closed-source version
19:24 raschipi If people care about software freedom at all, they certainly should avoid improving software working against it.
19:26 raschipi If they are writing closed source software, they are annoying me an tyil, how do you guys suggest we fix that?
19:26 ugexe one gives you the freedom to do what you want, the other gives you the freedom but only under certain circumstances
19:27 raschipi There's other type that doesn't give any freedoms, so we're working against it.
19:28 ugexe the answer to no freedom isn't total freedom, but partial freedom?
19:29 pmurias raschipi: do you think hurting closed source software at the expense of open source software is a benefit?
19:29 tyil its a freedom that disallows you taking away freedom from others
19:29 dmaestro I prefer to help good people do the right thing, even if it helps "bad" people do the wrong thing. The latter will usually find a way anyway, and we need to encourage the former.
19:29 tyil pmurias: you're not hurting closed source software in my opinion, but it is still a benefit even if it were to me
19:30 ugexe so is the react license
19:30 dmaestro So I'm for letting the author decide, and not judge too harshly.
19:31 raschipi Yes, each author has to make their own mind.
19:31 tyil dmaestro: the gpl is allowing good people to do the right thing without helping the bad people doing the wrong thing
19:31 tyil sounds like a win/win to me
19:31 ugexe because you are ignoring the price the programmes who DONT get a choice pay
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19:32 dmaestro tyil: pmurias already spoke to that.
19:32 tyil they'll get paid more by having to implement an alternative because their boss wanted to be a jerk, ugexe?
19:33 ugexe i dont know, im not the boss of every company
19:33 pmurias tyil: as someone who is writing Artistic 2 stuff, GPL licenses on libraries are an annoyance to me
19:33 ugexe i dont find punishing programmer is worth it just to punish the company
19:34 tyil as someone who wants to work to make a better place, libraries being used in proprietary software are an annoyance to me with a total disrespect for the community of the library
19:34 tyil and end-users
19:35 dmaestro Anyone know the status of the 'xor' op? It's mentioned in operators, and seems to work fine, but not documented along with its neighbors 'or' and 'orelse' ...
19:35 tyil ugexe: if they cant use any libs because of gpl fear and find that making everything themselves is too costy they might consider going along with playing nice
19:36 ugexe or they will just use your gpl lib anyway because i doubt you have the means to enforce it
19:36 pmurias tyil: if say a contributor to my project can't use the library we are writing together in his closed project because I have used a GPL dependency it's a loss to me
19:36 tyil how so?
19:36 tyil what are you losing?
19:37 tyil ugexe: thats a flaw of the judicial system then, not of the license chosen
19:37 pmurias tyil: he will stop contribute less because he can't use what he helps create
19:37 tyil pmurias: or he will reconsider and play nice
19:37 pmurias * he will contribute
19:37 raschipi ugexe: The Free Software Conservancy will enforce licenses for free software developers, you don't need to worry about that.
19:37 tyil its not a given that he'll contribute less either
19:37 ugexe my point is you only ever punish the programmer for a theoretical victory
19:38 tyil punishing by rewarding more money due to increased development time?
19:38 raschipi ugexe: Punishing closed-source software developers is exactly the objective.
19:38 ugexe ifyou dont care what you are programming (ever programmer I know does), sure
19:39 tyil raschipi: I dont see it as a punishment unto them at all, they have the choice to use it or not after all, they can talk to their boss if needs be
19:39 tyil if they decide not to use it, thats their choice and the dev in question will be able to rake in more money
19:40 tyil if they do decide to use it, the free software ecosystem gains from it
19:40 ugexe thats certainly one way to get less mindshare
19:40 raschipi Or they can approach you and buy a licese that's aceptable for them.
19:41 tyil or that, then you gain money which you can use to fund further free development, though I'd morally oppose to do that myself :p
19:42 tyil you can license it LGPL to allow unaltered use in closed source as well
19:43 tyil if they improve it, the improvements will at least come through
19:43 tyil maybe that's an acceptable compromise
19:44 dmaestro I agree the LGPL is acceptable, where it applies
19:44 pmurias tyil: I don't buy that increased development time actually helps the developers
19:45 tyil thats how hourly wage works
19:45 pmurias nope?
19:46 tyil you get paid by the hour, you make more hours so you get paid more
19:46 ugexe by the hour... lol
19:46 tyil not much to nope about tha
19:46 dmaestro pmurias++ time is intrinsically valuable (and scarce), and it's a shame to waste it
19:46 tyil dmaestro: indeed, which is where free software shines
19:46 ugexe tyil: you are not from the US I take it?
19:47 tyil luckily not
19:47 ijneb why luckily?
19:47 ugexe I think in the US the hurdles are much greater than elsewhere
19:48 tyil ijneb: I see no benefits in living in the USA
19:48 ijneb Where do you live currently?
19:48 tyil Netherlands
19:48 tyil where net neutrality is a thing that ISPs actually fight for
19:48 ijneb I'm glad I live in the USA as opposed to living in Africa or any 3rd world shithole
19:48 ijneb but yeah, the US has its own problems too
19:48 tyil the USA is no 3rd world shithole?
19:49 tyil thats news to me
19:49 ugexe oh come on
19:49 ijneb The crimerate is drastically lower than everywhere in South America
19:49 tyil from the eyes of people in the first world, the USA is just a laughing stock of stupid decisions but with way too much nukes to actually tell them
19:50 ijneb I'm not, by any means, saying the US is perfect (it's definitely not), but the US is actually a pretty great place to live
19:50 tyil ijneb: and the incarceration rate is higher than anywhere in the world
19:50 tyil people get arrested for having the wrong kinds of plants in their garden
19:50 ugexe its ok to be arrested for plants only if you have more than the alloted amount i guess?
19:50 tyil school shootings are a normal thing
19:51 ijneb School shootings aren't a normal thing lmao
19:51 tyil gun violence is dramatic
19:51 ijneb You're blowing this out of proportion
19:51 raschipi Oh, someone from Europe criticizing the uS for terrorist attacks, that's flame i can get behind...
19:51 jnthn If I kick the lot of you talking about stuff that's not Perl 6 for the last ages, is that out of proportion?
19:52 ijneb meh, I agree
19:52 ijneb this isn't on topic at all
19:52 tyil jnthn: with all due respect, the license part was about a perl 6 module, but I agree we're getting way off topic here, sorry
19:52 jnthn Yeah, fair enough. I'm just cranky today :)
19:53 ijneb tyil: No hard feelings
19:53 tyil <3
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20:09 dmaestro Asking again: Anyone know the status of the 'xor' op? It's mentioned in operators, and seems to work fine, but not documented along with its neighbors 'or' and 'orelse' ...
20:10 moritz dmaestro: if it's not documented, that's an omission that should be fixed
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20:14 dmaestro moritz: Thanks, I'll try fixing that when I get a chance :-)
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21:43 Geth ¦ doc: dmaestro++ created pull request #1460: Add documentation of loose xor operator
21:43 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1460
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23:27 [Coke] dmaestro: thanks for trying to keep the discussion on topic. :)
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23:47 Geth ¦ doc: c285114582 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | util/update-and-sync
23:47 Geth ¦ doc: Allow admins to force a build update.
23:47 Geth ¦ doc:
23:47 Geth ¦ doc: $ touch ~/force-update
23:47 Geth ¦ doc:
23:47 Geth ¦ doc: to make the next crontab run kick off a fresh build, even if there
23:47 Geth ¦ doc: isn't a pending commit.
23:47 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c285114582
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