Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-10-18

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:22 pilne am i wrong in my feeling that perl6 is probably the easiest way to code if you want/must glue together other languages due to grammars?
00:23 pilne like... if i don't care right now about performance, but for some reason i want to/need to mix say... c, ruby, python, and perl5 code....
00:23 pilne perl6 would probably be the most natural way to do that (as compared to anything else, except maybe doing it "bottom up" with c?)
00:23 pilne like if perl5 is glue, perl6 is superglue :D
00:24 raschipi I don't see the relation to Grammars, though...
00:25 pilne aren't grammars what allow the interop to be kept perl6 based?
00:25 pilne in terms of syntax? or is my brain finally just melting down a little?
00:26 raschipi No, it's the foreign function interface
00:27 raschipi i.e. NativeCall
00:27 raschipi Rakudo uses NativeCall to call into other languages.
00:28 raschipi But Perl6 was built from the start to be able to do these things, so it's not just NativeCall.
00:28 pilne fair enough
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01:19 Geth ¦ doc: f7eefbd890 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files
01:19 Geth ¦ doc: Document behaviour with degenerate cue intevals
01:19 Geth ¦ doc:
01:19 Geth ¦ doc: - Could use less stilted language
01:19 Geth ¦ doc:
01:19 Geth ¦ doc: Impl: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/df01ad97e5
01:19 Geth ¦ doc: Spec: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/baa8ccbb30
01:19 Geth ¦ doc: Extra tests: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/031f8cf77c
01:19 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f7eefbd890
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01:23 raschipi u: —
01:23 unicodable6 raschipi, U+2014 EM DASH [Pd] (—)
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01:54 Herby_ o/
01:55 ilbot3 joined #perl6
01:55 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:56 HoboWithAShotgun m: my %h = gather { take p => 1) }; %h.say
01:56 camelia rakudo-moar 4c3700729: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my %h = gather { take p => 17⏏5) }; %h.say␤    expecting any of:␤        postfix␤        statement end␤        statement modifier␤        statement …»
01:56 HoboWithAShotgun m: my %h = gather { take p => 1 }; %h.say
01:56 camelia rakudo-moar 4c3700729: OUTPUT: «Unexpected named argument 'p' passed␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
01:56 HoboWithAShotgun bummer
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01:58 Zoffix HoboWithAShotgun: you're passing it as named arg to &take. Pass it as a positional instead
01:58 Zoffix m: my %h = gather { take "p" => 1 }; %h.say
01:58 camelia rakudo-moar 4c3700729: OUTPUT: «{p => 1}␤»
01:59 Zoffix m: my %h = gather { take "p" => 1;   take :42z.Pair;   :100y.take }; %h.say
01:59 camelia rakudo-moar 4c3700729: OUTPUT: «{p => 1, y => 100, z => 42}␤»
01:59 Zoffix I think it's described in detail here: https://docs.perl6.org/language/traps#Named_Parameters
02:00 * Zoffix .put-into: $bed
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02:02 HoboWithAShotgun m: say (y => 1) == ('y' => 1)
02:02 camelia rakudo-moar 4c3700729: OUTPUT: «Cannot resolve caller Numeric(Pair: ); none of these signatures match:␤    (Mu:U \v: *%_)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
02:04 HoboWithAShotgun good night
02:04 HoboWithAShotgun me too
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02:09 ugexe m: my %h = gather { take $(:p(1)) }; %h.say
02:09 camelia rakudo-moar 4c3700729: OUTPUT: «{p => 1}␤»
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02:31 Herby_ question
02:31 Herby_ disclaimer: I'm new to Linux
02:31 Herby_ in the terminal, if I type "zef", i get the options for zef
02:31 Herby_ if I type "sudo zef", it says command not found
02:32 Herby_ what gives
02:36 raschipi do you have sudo installed?
02:36 Herby_ yep
02:36 geekosaur root often has a restricted $PATH
02:37 Herby_ Should I need sudo to: zef install HTTP::UserAgent ?
02:37 raschipi Yep, sudo will clean up the environment before running commands.
02:37 geekosaur sudo is usually configured to clean its environment and install a sanitized $PATH by default; see /etc/sudoers and the doucmenttion thereto
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02:38 raschipi And it's better to leave it that way. Instead use the complete path to the zef executable.
02:38 Herby_ hmmm
02:39 geekosaur and you should only need to sudo if you have rakudo installed in a system directory. be cautious in that case if it got there by a package manager
02:39 Herby_ i'm clueless linux rookie... i used checkinstall to install rakudo
02:40 raschipi can you give us the result of `which perl6`?
02:41 Herby_ '/home/chrx/rakudo/rakudo-star-2017.07/install/bin//perl6
02:42 raschipi hum, doesn't seem like you'd need to use sudo to install modules
02:42 Herby_ when I try:  zef install HTTP::UserAgent
02:42 Herby_ I get a wordy error, but the gist is "permission denied"
02:43 Herby_ Failed to open file /home/chrx/.zef/store/MANIFEST.zef: Permission denied
02:44 geekosaur sounds like you used sudo a previous time and now you have root-owned files under $HOME
02:44 Herby_ definitely possible...
02:45 raschipi yeah, I would do `chown -R chrx:chrx /home/chrx/.zef`?
02:45 geekosaur (this might even break zef, I think it assumes something installed under $HOME is guaranteed writable and it can re-precomp or etc.)
02:45 geekosaur or maybe CURLI makes the assumption
02:45 geekosaur the chown needs to be done via sudo though
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02:46 raschipi right, you'll need sudo
02:46 Herby_ so I should:   sudo chown -R chrx:chrx /home/chrx/.zef
02:46 geekosaur yes
02:47 raschipi have a look at this: https://explainshell.com/explain?cmd=sudo+chown+-R+chrx%3Achrx+%2Fhome%2Fchrx%2F.zef
02:50 Herby_ progress. got further in the install then got this: CompUnit::Repository install target is not writeable/installable: /home/chrx/auto
02:50 Herby_ Need a valid installation target to continue
02:50 geekosaur same issue, sounds like. but why is zef creating a dir there?
02:50 raschipi you have the same problem on that path probably
02:54 raschipi Anyway, it should be safe to execute the same command in that path: `sudo chown -R chrx:chrx /home/chrx/auto`
02:55 Herby_ chown: cannot access '/home/chrx/auto': No such file or directory
02:55 raschipi try `mkdir ~/auto`
02:56 geekosaur now I think something else is wrong
02:56 geekosaur like, I didn't think it should be writing there to begin with. wrong path in zef's CUR somehow?
02:57 geekosaur or maybe it's a bug in the package
02:57 geekosaur I would be rather annoyed if installing a random package started putting stuff in random dirs outside the CUR playground
02:57 geekosaur much as I would be if apt-get dropped something in $HOME (a debian no-no)
03:02 Herby_ i think my install is all jacked
03:02 Herby_ I was able to install http::useragent
03:03 Herby_ but when I run a simple script
03:03 Herby_ Could not find HTTP::UserAgent at line 2 in:
03:03 Herby_ /home/chrx/.perl6
03:03 Herby_ /home/chrx/rakudo/rakudo-star-2017.07/install/share/perl6/site
03:03 Herby_ /home/chrx/rakudo/rakudo-star-2017.07/install/share/perl6/vendor
03:03 Herby_ /home/chrx/rakudo/rakudo-star-2017.07/install/share/perl6
03:03 Herby_ CompUnit::Repository::AbsolutePath<77908064>
03:03 Herby_ CompUnit::Repository::NQP<59934952>
03:03 Herby_ CompUnit::Repository::Perl5<59934992>
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03:13 ugexe its all configurable. https://github.com/ugexe/zef/blob/master/resources/config.json
03:15 HoboWithAShotgun Color::Named - Because colors are people too. Do you think that could be somehow politically incorrect? i'm super bad at judging such things
03:16 raschipi One thing that comes to my mind is that there are people that don't have names.
03:17 HoboWithAShotgun i mean it as a reference to "aliens are people too"
03:17 HoboWithAShotgun meh, better not before somebody calls me racist or something
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03:27 geekosaur its possible. 'colored' was at one point a racial epithet
03:27 geekosaur in the US at least
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04:31 AlexDaniel` .seen azawawi
04:31 yoleaux I saw azawawi 12 Oct 2017 03:47Z in #perl6: <azawawi> https://github.com/Microsoft/language-server-protocol/blob/master/protocol.md   # Seems like the direction Atom is taking with future language integrations (autocomplete, find definitions, warning/error diagnostics, ..etc)
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06:07 AlexDaniel` so Imlib2 is too bitrotten, MagickWand is too incomplete, and Image::PNG::Portable is too slow
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06:10 AlexDaniel` maybe Image::Magick:from<Perl5> ? Hmm
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07:10 jonas1 http://test.rg.avisita.com/admin/agenda/
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07:41 wander Can we add a precedence info of proto-regexes?
07:41 moritz wander: are you talking about grammars in general? or the Perl 6 grammar in Rakudo?
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07:42 wander_ rule expression:sym<+> (precedence => 1) { <expression>+ % <sym>}; rule expression:sym<*> (precedence => 0) { <expression>+ % <sym>};
07:42 wander_ something like these
07:43 moritz no
07:43 wander_ in Rakudo
07:43 moritz there' no operator precedence parser built into the proto mechanism
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07:45 wander_ since I have several operators to handle, I try to find some method to deal with them in similar form
07:45 moritz a good OPP supports quite some features (precedence, different operator types (infix, prefix, postfix, circumfix), different associativies, including non-associative operators)
07:45 moritz and we haven't found a good way yet to structure the API for one
07:46 moritz this is something that could be well experimented with in a module
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07:47 wander_ sadly
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09:05 robertle in perl6 (as oppsosed to perl5), can I create circular structures and they get garbage collected? or do I need to do some sort of reference weakening?
09:06 jnthn Yeah, circular structures are no problem
09:06 jnthn GC is based on reachability
09:07 robertle cool, thanks!
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09:21 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 16a8a777be | (Alexey Melezhik)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
09:21 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Move Sparrowdo::RemoteFile to CPAN
09:21 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/16a8a777be
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09:31 buggable New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-RemoteFile-0.0.1.tar.gz by MELEZHIK https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/M/ME/MELEZHIK/Perl6/Sparrowdo-RemoteFile-0.0.1.tar.gz
09:32 melezhik buggable
09:33 melezhik sorry, last line has been printed occassionally , never mind it :))
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09:47 steeznson what would be a good beginners project for someone interested in learning Perl 6's unique functionality? I've written applications in Java and C# before
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09:59 ufobat doing something with grammars?
10:01 steeznson i
10:02 ufobat and i am allways looking for ppl to contribute to Bailador ;)
10:02 steeznson *i'm interested in using unicode co-extensively with functions and exploring rationals
10:02 sena_kun parsing, concurrency, scripting as a good points to start... Basically, I'd better go with a software you want/need, not the one Perl 6 makes(does it?) you to write, I guess.
10:03 steeznson thanks, i'll mull it over. I'm taking more of an academic interest in perl for a grad school project.
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10:07 vijayanat say hello
10:08 sena_kun m: say "Hello";
10:08 camelia rakudo-moar 2580a0a6f: OUTPUT: «Hello␤»
10:10 sena_kun oh, new hyper/race is merged. \0/ jnthn++
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12:08 sproctor So I've found a YAML parser that doesn't explode when I give it a swagger file. Next up cro include and I've got all I need (I think) to make a CRO swagger plugin. :D
12:09 sproctor (Sorry OpenAPI)
12:09 jnthn Nice
12:09 jnthn sproctor: By "cro include" do you mean the include feature in the router?
12:09 sproctor That's the bunny yes.
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12:10 jnthn Nice timing, I implemneted it last weekend :)
12:11 sproctor Cool. I've been thinking about it for a while. The idea being you should be able to decorate the OpenAPi with OperationId's that match controller methods and the just do an include $plugin->parse_file( "path/to/file" )
12:12 sproctor It'll generate all the routes and also validation sub types based on the spec. So you just need to create the controllers... That's my thinking anyway.
12:12 sproctor Similar to the Mojo plugin.
12:13 sproctor I prefer that way of working to the auto generation thing in most cases. As it means you can update your spec file later and not have to regenerate all your system. Anyway I'll keep an eye on things and play about with this over the weekend.
12:14 sproctor (Note to self. Finish slides for LPW)
12:15 DrForr Ack, I have to finish my abstract :/
12:15 yoleaux 16 Oct 2017 09:39Z <HoboWithAShotgun> DrForr: On the site for Perl6Tidy (https://github.com/drforr/perl6-Perl6-Tidy) you claim it could be installed by zef, but it isn't in the eco system (https://modules.perl6.org/search/?q=tidy).
12:18 DrForr .tell HoboWithAShotgun I'll probably add it over the weekend. I was thinking it should do something less trivial than bracing, but braces are good enough for now, I suppose.
12:18 yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to HoboWithAShotgun.
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13:34 [Coke]_ (JSON::Fast) did you look at any of the other JSON modules, btw?
13:35 timotimo is there something wrong with JSON::Fast?
13:35 timotimo i'll probably merge the "allow sorting hashes by key" thing soon
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13:47 * [Coke] again finds the irc logs needing a verrrry wide display to be read.
13:48 jdv79 the web version?  sometimes it doesn't fit.  looks like an html fail.
13:48 timotimo it's pretty bad, yeah
13:50 raschipi What about the raw text version in the colabti.org logs?
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14:11 buggable New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-RemoteFile-0.0.2.tar.gz by MELEZHIK https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/M/ME/MELEZHIK/Perl6/Sparrowdo-RemoteFile-0.0.2.tar.gz
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14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem: c2fda9a172 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Add Reminders.pm6 to ecosystem
14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem: "Reminders: Class for managing reminders about task and events"
14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem: See: https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Reminders
14:15 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/c2fda9a172
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14:48 [Coke] zoffix, testing out a modified update-rakudo that reinstalls all my modules.
14:48 [Coke] (might be too much, may end up with just adding a bunch of installs of the stuff I know I use daily so that experimental stuff isn't resurrected.)
14:49 timotimo you're only reinstalling stuff to get the tests to run again, right?
14:50 timotimo or to get newer versions i guess
14:51 [Coke] reinstalling because my normal upgrade process wipes out all the installed modules.
14:51 timotimo ah ok
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15:04 [Coke] is HyperIterable on nom yet, or still in a branch?
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15:14 timotimo the hyper work has landed in nom
15:15 timotimo not sure if HyperIterable is an actaul thing
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15:16 ilmari no, that got _deleted_
15:17 ilmari it's HyperSeq now
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15:18 ilmari (and RaceSeq)
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15:23 jnthn HyperIterable was part of the old internals of the now-discarded hyper/race implementation
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15:23 jnthn Well, the original idea was to make those "internals" API
15:24 jnthn But (a) the design didn't work so well, and (b) the new one seems to work better, but I'd like freedom to change it in the future
15:24 [Coke] HyperIterable is in the docs, failing an example build.
15:24 [Coke] line 150, doc/Type/Any.pod6
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15:26 timotimo ah, because there's a map method on HyperIterable
15:28 jnthn Huh, that sounds confused
15:30 [Coke] https://docs.perl6.org/type/Any#method_map
15:33 jnthn oh, right
15:33 jnthn No, it ain't going to work that way any more
15:33 jnthn The map method is on HyperSeq and RaceSeq now
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16:42 haxmeister https://paste.pound-python.org/show/5qzOIR8EFv00Kj0qtaEg/
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16:49 timotimo haxmeister: can you debug PowerShell?
16:50 timotimo in this case powershell syntax
16:51 haxmeister not much of a power user on windows
16:51 haxmeister anything specific I might look at?
16:52 timotimo the thing that's exploding here is the sha256 implementation that uses the powershell so it doesn't have to pull in any dlls or slow perl6 code
16:52 timotimo all of this is just for downloading and verifying the dlls we have on the gtk-dlls.p6c.org site
16:53 timotimo you can manually git clone the gtk simple source repository, put the DLLs into the resources/ folder (and check the sha256 signatures manually) and then just throw out the Build.pm file
16:53 timotimo then "zef install ." inside the code directory
16:53 haxmeister kk
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17:04 ugexe zef install . --/build
17:04 timotimo oh i did not know about that
17:04 timotimo nice.
17:04 ilmari --/?
17:05 timotimo maybe i should reach out to the twittersphere and find somebody to fix the sha256 thing
17:05 ugexe false
17:05 ugexe --/ = Bool::False, -- = Bool::True (when applied to a boolean type anyway)
17:06 ilmari what happened to the traditional --foo/--no-foo?
17:06 ugexe personally i don't like that convention, which means writing both params in your &MAIN
17:07 ugexe sub MAIN(Bool:D :$foo, Bool:D, :$no-foo) { }
17:07 ilmari why couldn't --no-foo set Bool:D :$foo to False?
17:08 ugexe because then MAIN is parsing its params fairly different than other subs
17:08 ugexe what happens if i have an actual :$no-foo for instance
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17:14 b2gills --no-foo could be added as an option that you can turn on
17:15 ugexe well sure, but any GetOpt thing could technically be added as an option.
17:22 haxmeister timotimo: ok I cloned gtk-simple.. now what DLLs do I need to move, and where is this resources folder?
17:22 timotimo you'll find all the URLs in Build.pm
17:22 timotimo https://github.com/perl6/gtk-simple/blob/master/Build.pm
17:23 timotimo it turns out gtk-simple's Build.pm will try to load libgtk-3-0.dll and if it succeeds won't try to download anything or verify hashes
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17:35 haxmeister man that's kind of a nuisance for windows users
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17:39 nine Yep, it'll be good when Build.pm is finally gone
17:41 timotimo weird. it looks like all you have to do to get a hash is Get-FileHash /foo/bar -Algorithm SHA256 | select Hash | Format-List
17:41 timotimo why is our code so much longer?
17:41 timotimo function get-sha256 { param($file);[system.bitconverter]::tostring([System.Security.Cryptography.sha256]::create().computehash([system.io.file]::openread((resolve-path $file)))) -replace \"-\",\"\" }
17:41 timotimo for comparison
17:42 timotimo "this should work all the way back to powershell v1" that's why, of course
17:43 timotimo the ms docs for powershell only have it since 5.1
17:47 haxmeister v1 is an awfully long time ago
17:47 timotimo cool, you can PowerShell.exe -Version 2
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17:49 timotimo i have a powershell version 4.0 here but it has Get-FileHash for some reason
17:49 timotimo oh
17:50 timotimo what the docs page means with "the closest version" is apparently "two versions further away from the closest version"
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17:51 haxmeister /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libgmodule-2.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libgobject-2.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libgtk-3-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libiconv-2.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libpango-1.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libpangocairo-1.0-0.dll
17:51 haxmeister /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libpangoft2-1.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libpangowin32-1.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libpixman-1-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libpng15-15.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libxml2-2.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libatk-1.0-0.dll
17:51 haxmeister /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libcairo-gobject-2.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libffi-6.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libfontconfig-1.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libfreetype-6.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libgdk-3-0.dll
17:51 haxmeister /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libgio-2.0-0.dll /cygdrive/c/Users/jday/AppData/Local/Temp/libglib-2.0-0.dll
17:51 haxmeister oh sorry
17:51 haxmeister have no idea why it did that
17:51 haxmeister windows :/
17:51 haxmeister liblzma-5.dll is missing?
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17:54 patrickz Hey! I'm currently trying to get buttons on the raspberry pi working using interrupts.
17:55 patrickz Using NativeCall + the wiringPi library doesn't work, because wiringPi spawns a thead and thus causes a MVM panic when the interrupt hits.
17:56 patrickz Has somebody already done interrupt stuff with perl6 and can point into a direction?
17:56 timotimo oh, interrupts? like, posix signals?
17:56 patrickz think so
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17:57 patrickz if I looked it up correctly wiringPi uses ioctl + poll on a filehandle internally
17:57 patrickz but there is no IO::Handle.poll in p6...
17:57 timotimo an strace would perhaps be enlightening
17:59 mst is it not possible to create a callback that can be passed via NCI and transfers back to the MVM thread first?
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18:00 timotimo we do have something for cross-thread callbacks; at least there's a test that has some of those words in its filename
18:01 timotimo what does this mvm panic look like, patrickz?
18:01 haxmeister timotimo: thanks for the help.. zef completed with no errors.. will try some code here shortly
18:03 timotimo maybe all that's needed is to remove the \ in front of the " signs in the hash function?
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18:16 patrickz timotimo: MoarVM panic: native callback ran on thread unknown to MoarVM
18:17 timotimo yes, that makes sense. you might have to use some other ipc mechanism
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18:19 patrickz I thought about replicating the ioctl + poll thing in p6 land.
18:21 patrickz No idea if those functions are already available in p6. A quick grep on the source only yielded stuff in libuv :-/
18:23 patrickz stuff in libuv/src/unix/poll.c is not called in moarvm. I guess p6 has no native poll support.
18:24 mst patrickz: poll() is just one way to determine if a filehandle is readable
18:24 mst patrickz: libuv has multiple backend implementations to do that, of which poll is one.
18:25 raschipi Probably because they develop to the lcd of linux and windows
18:25 mst patrickz: it would make no sense for moarvm to call that directly
18:25 timotimo shouldn't it be enough to have a thread that read()s in a loop?
18:25 steeznson Sorry to go a little off topic: Could someone briefly elaborate a little on grammars here? Am I correct in thinking they just function as classes of regexes?
18:25 mst raschipi: poll() is often not the best backend on linux anyway
18:27 raschipi you prefer real time signals?
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18:27 timotimo grammars are actually just a kind of class, and regexes/tokens/rules in them are just a kind of method
18:28 steeznson @timotimo thanks that clears things up a little
18:29 timotimo being able to derive from and mix into grammars is super useful
18:30 patrickz timotimo: just looked at the strace of my little test script failing with wiringPi. It looks like the C poll() just does read() in a loop :-P
18:31 timotimo well, that's at least easy to replicate in pure perl6 code
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18:31 steeznson great, looking forward to playing with grammars while exploring more of perl's functionality
18:32 raschipi At least now Linux hackers are working on making aio_read() actually non-blocking.
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18:40 wander how to write rules to get the precedence expected?
18:40 wander rule mul { | <id> '*' <mul> | <id> '/' <mul> | <id> '%' <mul> | <id> }
18:40 wander I write down this and find multiplicative-expression assoc<right>
18:41 wander while expected is left
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18:42 wander oh, it has nothing to do with precedence, but associativity
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18:48 tyil https://travis-ci.org/scriptkitties/perl6-SemVer/jobs/289455352 does anyone know why zef throws these errors?
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18:55 ugexe probably because you are using stuff in your depends you should not be using
18:56 tyil I took it from the META6 spec, but thats out of date then
18:57 tyil is there an up to date page with the full META6 spec
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18:58 tyil the docs refer to https://design.perl6.org/S22.html#META6.json
18:58 tyil which has the depends that I based that META6.json on
18:59 tyil so I guess according to the docs, zef doesnt support stuff it should be supporting
19:00 ugexe those arent "the docs"
19:00 tyil ttps://docs.perl6.org/language/modules#index-entry-META6.json-META6.json refers to it
19:00 tyil if docs.perl6.org isnt "the docs", what is?
19:02 ugexe what does that url, which is different than the previous url, point at that zef does not support?
19:02 tyil "See the full META specification for more details as well as further options available for use in META6.json files."
19:02 tyil that "full META specification" is the S22.html
19:03 tyil so the docs quite clearly state that S22.html contain the full spec, and the docs.perl6.org page is just a sample
19:03 ugexe well S22.html at the top clearly states its not the spec
19:03 tyil "clearly" in a bit overblown
19:04 ugexe its a bright red header
19:04 tyil since it says on S22.html it "may" be out of date
19:04 tyil and the docs.perl6.org points to the "full META spec", to S22.html
19:04 ugexe "for specs, see the official test suite"
19:05 tyil which is not actually linked it
19:05 tyil to
19:05 ugexe ok, anyways, you know why it doesnt work now.
19:05 tyil regardless, zef and the docs are out of sync, and the error message could certainly get some improvement
19:05 ugexe go for it
19:06 tyil well, I can guess why it doesnt work now, but I still dont have a clear link to the actual spec that zef supposedly supports
19:06 ugexe its supposedly in the code and CUR/rakudo
19:07 tyil if you have a real pointer I'd gladly check it out later today, but I'm getting a strong vibe that you're annoyed that I want better docs and zef to adhere to it
19:08 wander seems Perl 6 grammar use LL() grammar, how to build rules with left-associativity
19:08 tyil so I'll just leave it at "zef and the docs arent in sync", and let it rest for a bit
19:09 moritz or do something about it
19:09 tyil moritz: hence I asked for a clear link to the actual spec ;)
19:09 tyil then I can update the docs with the correct link, write it out if I have more time
19:10 tyil "its supposedly here and there" doesn't really help me
19:10 tyil or saying "the docs are wrong", that doesn't really help anyone either
19:10 tyil if he doesn't want to help me find out where the correct info is, I can't help to correct the docs
19:11 ugexe part of your responses are in part to how you framed your questions
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19:12 tyil and because you seem pretty bent on not providing me with the simple answer to my simple question I wanted to let off some steam on both sides
19:12 tyil because all I get from this is that you're annoyed that I found a possible issue with zef
19:12 tyil and I'm getting annoyed at you evading trying to actually help me
19:12 tyil and this is helping nobody so far
19:13 raschipi if the answer was easy, it would have been provided to you already
19:14 tyil my question right now is, where can I find the META6.json spec directly
19:14 raschipi https://docs.perl6.org/language/modules#index-entry-META6.json-META6.json
19:15 moritz tyil: there's stuff on docs.perl6.org and in the synopsis
19:15 tyil which refers to the "full spec" which is either incorrect or not cerroctly implemented
19:15 moritz they are out of sync, and out of sync with the implementation
19:15 moritz hence, the need for improvement which you mentioned
19:15 tyil yes, but I cant improve it if nobody wants to link me the full spec
19:15 ugexe again with the framing... maybe not-yet-implemented would have been a better choice
19:15 raschipi There's a note in the spec that says it's known to be incomplete.
19:15 samcv so i think the answer is just to not make sub items inside of depends
19:15 samcv and then zef should be able to handle it?
19:16 raschipi I linked it above for you, that's it, all there is.
19:16 moritz tyil: sure you can, if you want to dig in and find out what's actually going on
19:16 ugexe yes
19:16 moritz this is not waterfall, where a Complete Spec[tm] is written, and everything is derived from it
19:16 perlpilot tyil: what samcv said.
19:16 tyil perlpilot: I know thats the solution, we're past that point for quite a while now
19:17 perlpilot tyil: ah, then update the docs to reflect reality  :-)
19:18 tyil "zef does not support the full META6 spec", I can just add that yes
19:18 raschipi tyil: the docs were written as forward-compatible with the new and improved specification you're planning to write.
19:18 raschipi this way you'll won't have to rewrite the docs after writing the specification.
19:19 ugexe we dont know if it supports the full meta spec or not. what is in the SPECULATION documents is not neccesarily the spec
19:20 tyil it clearly says "specification" in the link on docs.perl6, not speculation
19:20 tyil idk why you're making such a big deal out of a simple question
19:21 ugexe uh ok
19:21 tyil I'm willing to update the docs on this to avoid confusion, and if there currently is no actual spec to adhere to outside of the sample on docs.perl6.org, thats fine too
19:22 raschipi the word 'specification' on those documentsz is there because history.
19:23 raschipi perl6 actual specifications are written in the form of tests
19:23 perlpilot tyil: that section where it says "META specification" also talks about the "META.info file" too, so it's nicely out of date.
19:23 tyil perlpilot: yes, and it refers back to perl6.org which is also out of date, which just causes confusion
19:23 tyil which is why I want to update it
19:24 tyil but on this particular issue I can't seem to get a clear and straightforward answer
19:25 masak greetings #perl6
19:25 raschipi heya masak
19:25 raschipi tyil: there's no specification.
19:25 masak I just learned from a Guy Steele talk that the `?` in regexes was probably invented by Alfred Aho back in 1975
19:27 moritz \o masak, long time no see
19:27 masak yeah. I haven't defected or anything, I'm just being "put to good use" at $work :)
19:28 moritz btw, while you were away, I've written two books :-)
19:28 Geth ¦ doc: Tyil++ created pull request #1614: Remove link to outdated META6 spec
19:28 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1614
19:28 masak I noticed! congratulations!
19:28 masak moritz++
19:28 moritz thanks :)
19:29 moritz No. 2 isn't quite published yet
19:29 moritz but the manuscript is submitted, and I keep running into topics that I could have covered
19:30 masak I've *started* on one of my two books, but there's ways to go still
19:30 moritz which one?
19:31 masak the cat theory one
19:32 raschipi about the physical state of cat matter?
19:32 raschipi are cats solid or liquid?
19:32 moritz and if it's too much at once, we'll replace it with more theory or less theory :-)
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20:08 callyalater m: my $s = "p" ~ 0x304.chr;
20:08 camelia rakudo-moar 2fba0ba0d: ( no output )
20:09 cdg joined #perl6
20:10 callyalater m: my $s = "p" ~ 0x304.chr; say $s; say $s.samemark("a"); say $s.ords; .say for $s.uninames; say $s.codes; say $s.chars;
20:10 camelia rakudo-moar 2fba0ba0d: OUTPUT: «p̄␤p␤(112 772)␤LATIN SMALL LETTER P␤COMBINING MACRON␤2␤1␤»
20:11 callyalater m: my $s = "p" ~ 0x304.chr; say $s.uninames;
20:11 camelia rakudo-moar 2fba0ba0d: OUTPUT: «(LATIN SMALL LETTER P COMBINING MACRON)␤»
20:11 Zoffix tyil: the clear and straightforward answer is there's no "official" and complete spec for META contents at the moment. So far we're "winging" it with what zef does and what the slightly outdated speculation you saw documents. Making a concrete spec is listed as "would be good" on 6.d agenda https://github.com/perl6/6.d-prep/blob/master/TODO/README.md#see-if-we-can-nail-down-the-meta6json-spec , but I haven't
20:11 Zoffix seen anyone willing to champion that. There's a separate #perl6-toolchain channel for this stuff. I don't sit in it, but it's possible some of the spec was discussed (logs https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6-toolchain/2017-10-18 )
20:12 Zoffix tyil: so for your PR to docs, perhaps it better to clarify it's a work in progress and keep the link rather than removing it
20:12 geekosaur META format still changes every couple weeks, in fact
20:12 geekosaur I'm not sure we're anywhere near the point of having a spec as such
20:12 Zoffix FWIW, it might be best to spec (as roast spec) just the basics, leaving extended stuff as a separate spec
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20:14 Zoffix I'm not surprised. In logs I saw a person interested in the spec getting annoyed at vague responses
20:15 raschipi Well, it would help if someone in the chgannel knew the answer.
20:16 Zoffix :)
20:16 cdg_ joined #perl6
20:18 * Zoffix goes back to the dev cave
20:18 Zoffix left #perl6
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20:33 pmurias if we are going to have a same name multiple authors for a given module which one will be installed when I type 'zef install Foo'?
20:35 tyil ZofBot: thats fine too, but as it stands its only causing confusion, so I want to change that at least
20:36 tyil samcv suggested to change the wording to say that there is a bigger target to work towards, but that it currently is not supported by the existing package managers, so one should stick to the sample on the docs.perl6 page
20:37 tyil .tell zoffix thats fine too, but as it stands its only causing confusion, so I want to change that at least (I highlighted it to your bot by accident)
20:37 yoleaux tyil: I'll pass your message to zoffix.
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20:56 ugexe pmurias: whatever the first repo/mirror in the zef config that reports the highest version
20:59 ugexe if you want a specific auth explicity, then be explicit. if an ecosystem allows itself to make the implicit invocation problematic then user/company policy would likely remove them from the config as a source
21:00 ugexe similar to when you say `use Foo` vs `use Foo:auth<bar>`
21:13 pmurias ugexe: so the plan is that the ecosystem will enforce name ownership?
21:13 ugexe that is up to whatevery ecosystems policy
21:14 ugexe its not enforced in the current p6c ecosystem, but its been able to maintain sanity
21:15 pmurias all the default zef ones must enforce that eventually
21:17 pmurias otherwise people who type zef install DBIish will install DBIsh:auth<evilbitcoinminer>
21:20 ugexe it just mirrors in general
21:23 ugexe you can change the default to true/false in the config for what does exists, or with --/p6c --/cpan etc (commands also pulled from config file). so the tooling to do that exists
21:23 ugexe https://github.com/ugexe/zef/blob/master/resources/config.json#L32-L56
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22:33 HoboWithAShotgun .tell skaji I hacked on mi6, check out https://github.com/skaji/mi6/pull/28
22:33 yoleaux 12:18Z <DrForr> HoboWithAShotgun: I'll probably add it over the weekend. I was thinking it should do something less trivial than bracing, but braces are good enough for now, I suppose.
22:33 yoleaux HoboWithAShotgun: I'll pass your message to skaji.
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23:40 Herby_ o/
23:40 tyil \s
23:40 tyil \o
23:40 tyil *
23:40 Herby_ \o/
23:41 Herby_ Anyone know if there is a plan to put a CSV module in with Rakudo Star?
23:41 tyil I dont know of any such plans, but there might be more knowledgable people around
23:41 cdg joined #perl6
23:42 Herby_ a module for basic CSV reading/writing would definitely be used I think
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