Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-10-25

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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01:00 Geth ¦ doc: 2222abea69 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6
01:00 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/IO/Socket/Async
01:00 Geth ¦ doc: Remove useless `use v6.c`
01:00 Geth ¦ doc:
01:00 Geth ¦ doc: 6.d is around the corner and no point in having 6.c there as I can see
01:00 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2222abea69
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01:56 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
01:58 pilne i wonder if a game that duplicated the graphics level of the original quake could be run in something like perl6 these days given the advancements in hardware....
01:59 pilne i am trying to consolidate my obsessions >.< lol (:
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03:08 wander how about delegation? I found little doc of `delegate` itself, only `handles trait` in dir typesystem, is that all of it?
03:08 wander https://docs.perl6.org/language/typesystem#trait_handles
03:10 wander and should we doc delegation in dir object orient?
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03:50 Herby_ I'm learning OO
03:51 Herby_ How do I implement a Class counter?  If I have a class Robot, and I create a bunch of Robot objects, how do I keep track of how many robots I have created?
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03:54 ugexe m: class Robot { my @robots; submethod TWEAK(|) { push @robots, self; }; method hive-mind { @robots } }; Robot.new; Robot.new; say Robot.new.hive-mind.perl
03:54 camelia rakudo-moar eb1febd56: OUTPUT: «[Robot.new, Robot.new, Robot.new]␤»
03:55 Herby_ hmmm
03:56 ugexe note it is a `my`, not a `has` like you might be expecting in a class
03:58 Herby_ i havent seen that submethod TWEAK(|) before
03:58 Herby_ i'll have to look at that
03:58 Herby_ thanks
03:58 ugexe it could be inside a BUILD or new, anything called with the constructor
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06:25 moritz .tell raiph thanks, answered
06:25 yoleaux 24 Oct 2017 23:44Z <raiph> moritz: comment for you at https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46897895/how-to-make-perl-6-grammar-produce-more-than-one-match-like-ex-and-ov/46920109?noredirect=1#comment80788171_46920109 thanks
06:25 yoleaux moritz: I'll pass your message to raiph.
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06:27 sena_kun o/
06:28 sena_kun m: .parse-base(16).say for ('A'..'Z');
06:28 camelia rakudo-moar ce7e5444a: OUTPUT: «10␤Cannot convert string to number: malformed base-16 number in '3⏏5G' (indicated by ⏏)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤11␤12␤13␤14␤15␤»
06:29 sena_kun ah.
06:29 sena_kun I've got it.
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07:05 wander surprisingly,  just now I read "rakudo" in Japlish way and found it mean 楽土
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08:53 wander m: grammar G { rule TOP { <.ws> <external-define>* }; rule external-define { 'int main' }; }; say G.parse("  int main int main");
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar ce7e5444a: OUTPUT: «「  int main int main」␤ external-define => 「int main 」␤ external-define => 「int main」␤»
08:53 wander m: grammar G { rule TOP { <external-define>* }; rule external-define { 'int main' }; }; say G.parse("  int main int main");
08:53 camelia rakudo-moar ce7e5444a: OUTPUT: «Nil␤»
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08:54 wander why not add <.ws> at the beginning of rules automatically?
08:55 wander it's what people want it to do, i think
08:55 moritz no
08:55 moritz <.ws> terminates LTM
08:55 moritz which is why it tends to be a bad idea to parse it at the start
08:56 moritz so the common wisdom is to parse whitespace at the end of each rule
08:56 moritz and add a single <.ws> call inside TOP
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08:58 wander how it terminates LTM?
08:59 moritz the default ws uses ||, which is sequential
08:59 moritz https://design.perl6.org/S05.html#Longest-token_matching
08:59 timotimo also default ws has a <ww> in it, doesn't it?
08:59 timotimo no, not ww
08:59 timotimo a look-around assertion
09:00 moritz <!ww> \s*
09:00 moritz and ww uses ||, iirc
09:00 wander bbl
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09:25 moritz https://www.reddit.com/r/perl/comments/78lx3g/perl6_should_be_renamed_perl/ has the first naming suggestion for Perl 6 that I kinda like
09:25 moritz "viper", where "vi" is roman for 6, and "per" is 75% of "perl" :-)
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09:30 lizmat fwiw, I also like it snakiness  :-)
09:30 lizmat *its
09:31 lizmat but I also think the ship has sailed, now with so many Perl 6 books out there
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09:40 moritz aye, at most something like a nickname for the language
09:41 jast so many nicknames to choose from...
09:41 jast viperl6lang++
09:41 jast oh, actually I guess that's a mark against the '++', it will create bogus IRC karma :)
09:42 * moritz hates perl++ as a name
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10:14 * ilmari can't help but mentally pronounce 6lang as glang
10:15 ilmari бlang
10:19 jast δlang... close enough
10:21 Ulti moritz: how about Perl#
10:21 Ulti >:3
10:21 jast that's nice... and search-friendly
10:21 jast I can do one better, though: Perl##
10:24 Ulti the framework instead of .net can be another top level domain like .fun
10:24 Ulti Perl#.fun
10:25 AlexDaniel` /o\
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10:28 Ulti what, people wanted something they can sell to their managers that sounds really corporate
10:28 pmurias perl# sounds like a .net backend
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10:32 wander moritz, <.ws> goes puzzling in this case
10:32 wander https://gist.github.com/W4anD0eR96/c06463373b2605663efe988b618630f3
10:32 wander if I remove <.ws> here, the sentence will not be matched
10:32 wander it's too strange to me
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10:47 wander ok
10:48 wander my example is not the little exam
10:48 wander *example
10:48 wander it is wrong, i have another rule | <.ws><identifier> '=' <assignment-expression> before it
10:49 wander the because the backtrack strategy, it fails
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10:51 wander emmmm..I am reorganizing it, problem still be there
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12:44 HoboWithAShotgun does Perl 6 support tail-call optimization?
12:45 lizmat not in the traditional sense, afaik
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12:49 HoboWithAShotgun m: sub fact($n) { return $n == 1 ?? 1 !! $n * fact( $n - 1 ); }; say fact(1000);
12:49 camelia rakudo-moar 794235a38: OUTPUT: «40238726007709377354370243392300398571937486421071463254379991042993851239862902059204420848696940480047998861019719605863166687299480855890132382966994459099742450408707375991882362772718873251977950595099527612087497546249704360141827809464649629105…»
12:50 moritz just don't do that with fib()
12:50 HoboWithAShotgun well, that didn't blow the stack
12:50 HoboWithAShotgun why not?
12:52 HoboWithAShotgun m: multi sub fact(1) { 1; }; multi sub fact($n) { return $n * fact( $n - 1 ); }; say fact(10);
12:52 camelia rakudo-moar 794235a38: OUTPUT: «3628800␤»
12:52 HoboWithAShotgun i love this language :)
12:55 jast probably because fib can't be tail call optimized :)
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12:55 jast at least not easily. a Sufficiently Smart Compiler (tm) can, of course, add memoization
12:56 jast but then you don't really need TCO anymore
12:58 * HoboWithAShotgun adds the WP page for Memoization to the "to read, some day" list
12:59 raschipi there's "is memoized" and there's also "is pure".
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13:00 raschipi is pure memoizes but at compile time
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13:06 moritz no
13:06 raschipi what does it do, then?
13:06 moritz it gives the optimizer a hint that it's allowed to compile-time-evaluate it if the arguments are known at compile time too
13:06 raschipi right
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13:07 raschipi thanks
13:07 moritz but there is no hard promise that an "is pure" will always inline, or that indeed that is the only semantics attached to it
13:08 HoboWithAShotgun i just benchmarked the fact function above with compile time known arguments with and without pure
13:09 HoboWithAShotgun no difference
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13:22 [Coke] there isn't a memoized in p6, I don't think. (just cached)
13:23 HoboWithAShotgun ok so apparently is cached and recursion don't like each other. https://hastebin.com/gemeviqiba.pl
13:23 HoboWithAShotgun also, in that code, when i replace cached by pure, the pure version is reproducably 30% slower
13:25 perlpilot that makes some sense at least.   You've lied to the compiler and in believing you, it does extra work  :)
13:26 HoboWithAShotgun why lie? the sub has no side effects so it is "pure"
13:27 HoboWithAShotgun oh, "always produce the same output" not "always produce the same output (per given input"
13:28 raschipi no, it's for the same input, but the input has to be known at compile time
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13:31 HoboWithAShotgun mmh, so an iterative solution should be faster here, because then the compiler could see the 20 and optimize, rather than recurse down to 2
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13:36 perlpilot HoboWithAShotgun: "is cached" is almost specifically for recursion.   I think it's that "is cached" and multi subs don't get along.
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13:42 HoboWithAShotgun yes, iterative fibonacci with pure works, 10000 iterations without 2 seconds and with 0.0002 seconds. but that's not quite zero :)
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13:47 HoboWithAShotgun perlpilot: indeed, i replaced the multi with a regular one and now :cached works as expected
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13:50 perlpilot Maybe we should  throw a NYI error like we do for methods, but I don't know off the top of my head how to determine if a routine is a multi or not.
13:51 perlpilot (Or maybe, if someone is looking for something to do, they could actually implement these things so that they are no longer NYI  :-)
13:51 gfldex .candidates > 1
13:51 perlpilot gfldex: oh, of course
13:52 perlpilot for some reason that word just wasn't coming to my brain.
13:53 gfldex maybe you suffered a traumatic election :->
13:53 perlpilot heh
13:54 perlpilot nah, I need to focus on work and get some stuff done rather than divide my brain amongst all of the random ways we have to distract ourselves.
13:54 HoboWithAShotgun what do you think is currently missed most in the ecosytem? name your top 3 please :)
13:55 perlpilot See?  HoboWithAShotgun just teases my brain a little more :)
13:55 perlpilot HoboWithAShotgun: there's a most-wanted list somewhere.  Are you intending to update it?
13:55 HoboWithAShotgun more like taking one point off
13:56 HoboWithAShotgun it
13:59 raschipi My top three are three additional unicode operators.
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14:01 HoboWithAShotgun perlpilot: when a server reboots and nobody is around, does the speaker beep?
14:01 HoboWithAShotgun yeah well, what operators?
14:02 raschipi take your pick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_syntax_and_symbols
14:03 DrForr Oh good god, please don't mention that again :)
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14:05 jdv79 wow, the async bug eludes all that have tried.  crazy.
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14:07 raschipi Is it really crazy? I think it's the typical experience with async...
14:08 jdv79 i guess considering the subject its less crazy
14:09 jdv79 it is really cool when it works though
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14:10 AlexDaniel` http://vanilla-js.com/
14:10 HoboWithAShotgun i think if you really want to be able to write X←4 5⍴⍳20, the solution would better be a mini language than shoehoring that many operators into Perl itself
14:11 raschipi HoboWithAShotgun: Sure, I said that in jest.
14:11 jdv79 im not a fan of that name - its pretty confusing
14:14 HoboWithAShotgun jest?
14:15 eater samcv: you needed me?
14:18 jast HoboWithAShotgun: =~= not serious
14:19 raschipi jest, not jast
14:22 HoboWithAShotgun no, i mean , what's "jest"?
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14:24 huf joke
14:24 mspo what a jester does
14:24 huf it was jest a just, bro
14:25 jast I guess my explanation was too golfed
14:28 HoboWithAShotgun I think I'll go for implementing Lisp::Format from the most wanted list
14:28 DrForr *cough*
14:29 HoboWithAShotgun Looks like a good opportunity to get my hands wet with grammars
14:29 DrForr https://github.com/drforr/perl6-Format-Lisp
14:29 DrForr Not trying to dissuade you though.
14:30 HoboWithAShotgun lol. no biggie. then someone *cough* should take that off the list
14:30 DrForr Heh.
14:31 pmurias AlexDaniel`: that page really seems old looking at the frameworks they are comparing vanilla js too
14:32 HoboWithAShotgun i see you used a grammar as well
14:36 DrForr Yep. I haven't looked at error recovery.
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15:01 jdv79 there's no bytes method on Str?
15:02 [Coke] which bytes would you expect?
15:03 sena_kun .encode('utf-8') you want
15:03 jdv79 the bytes it currently has
15:03 jdv79 i want the real size
15:04 jdv79 ok
15:05 raschipi doesn't make sense to talk about bytes without specifying the encoding.
15:05 [Coke] .NFC, .NFD might also be of interest.
15:05 jdv79 yeah, just utf8
15:05 ilmari jdv79: it can be represented internally in several different forms, which you don't care about
15:05 [Coke] m: say "ü".NFC ; say "ü".NFD
15:05 camelia rakudo-moar 97b11edd6: OUTPUT: «NFC:0x<00fc>␤NFD:0x<0075 0308>␤»
15:09 jdv79 thanks
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15:22 raschipi m: say "ü".NFC.encode('utf-8').bytes ; say "ü".NFD.encode('utf-8').bytes
15:22 camelia rakudo-moar 97b11edd6: OUTPUT: «No such method 'encode' for invocant of type 'NFC'␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
15:23 raschipi Is this NIY or is there a problem with encoding one specific normalization?
15:25 Geth ¦ doc: 7ojo++ created pull request #1628: Fixed server and client examples for IO::Socket::Async
15:25 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1628
15:28 [Coke] if you just want the # of bytes, you can use "elems" on the Uni (NFC, NFD), I think.
15:28 [Coke] m: say "ü".NFD.elems
15:28 camelia rakudo-moar 97b11edd6: OUTPUT: «2␤»
15:28 [Coke] you could also make a Buf out of that list of bytes.
15:29 ilmari m: say "ü".encode('utf-8').bytes
15:29 camelia rakudo-moar 97b11edd6: OUTPUT: «2␤»
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15:29 ilmari NFD is a list of codepoints, not bytes in any encoding
15:30 ilmari m: say my $ø = "ø\c[COMBINING DIAERESIS]"; say $ø.encode('utf-8').bytes; say $ø.NFD.elems
15:30 camelia rakudo-moar 97b11edd6: OUTPUT: «ø̈␤4␤2␤»
15:31 [Coke] ah, right, sorry.
15:32 ilmari but yes, they should have .encode methods too
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16:03 raschipi thanks
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16:53 Geth ¦ doc: 99407a4c94 | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | htmlify.p6
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: Remove commented out code, stale comments
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/99407a4c94
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: bedf84ac6b | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | htmlify.p6
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: Remove old TODO comment that has ticket.
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bedf84ac6b
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: c46c96b77b | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | htmlify.p6
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: Remove no-proc-async option
16:53 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c46c96b77b
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17:15 Geth ¦ doc: 2c3f82f65b | (Will "Coke" Coleda)++ | type-graph.txt
17:15 Geth ¦ doc: Correct X::Temporal type graph
17:15 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/2c3f82f65b
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17:39 Geth ¦ doc/W4anD0eR96-patch-1: 0eaa8a8e2f | (Alex Chen)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/BagHash.pod6
17:39 Geth ¦ doc/W4anD0eR96-patch-1: Improve BagHash.new examples(Close #1629)
17:39 Geth ¦ doc/W4anD0eR96-patch-1:
17:39 Geth ¦ doc/W4anD0eR96-patch-1: #1629
17:39 Geth ¦ doc/W4anD0eR96-patch-1: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0eaa8a8e2f
17:40 Geth ¦ doc: W4anD0eR96++ created pull request #1630: Improve BagHash.new examples(Close #1629)
17:40 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1630
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18:05 travis-ci Doc build passed. Alex Chen 'Improve BagHash.new examples(Close #1629)
18:05 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/292738013 https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/0eaa8a8e2f99
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18:06 Geth ¦ doc: 5ed8953017 | (Alex Chen)++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | doc/Type/BagHash.pod6
18:06 Geth ¦ doc: Improve BagHash.new examples(Close #1629) (#1630)
18:06 Geth ¦ doc:
18:06 Geth ¦ doc: #1629
18:06 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/5ed8953017
18:06 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/BagHash
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19:04 Geth ¦ doc: 7679a0cef1 | (Jarkko Haapalainen)++ (committed by Zoffix Znet) | doc/Type/IO/Socket/Async.pod6
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: Fixed server and client examples for IO::Socket::Async (#1628)
19:04 Geth ¦ doc:
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: * IO::Socket::Async server example using heredoc
19:04 Geth ¦ doc:
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: and maybe more clearer for newcomers
19:04 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/IO/Socket/Async
19:04 Geth ¦ doc:
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: * IO::Socket::Async client example tweaks
19:04 Geth ¦ doc:
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: Couple of tweaks:
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: - There are issues with libuv when it defaults ipv6 when using localhost name. We can workaround that just using 127.0.0.1 instead of localhost name.
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: - Added newline for print
19:04 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/7679a0cef1
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19:54 Geth ¦ ecosystem: erickjordan++ created pull request #377: Update META.list
19:54 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/pull/377
19:55 HoboWithAShotgun mmh. there's no xml sax parser?
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 6a412635af | erickjordan++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Update META.list
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/6a412635af
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: 5d322c3de5 | (Patrick Spek)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | META.list
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Merge pull request #377 from erickjordan/patch-1
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem:
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: Update META.list
19:56 Geth ¦ ecosystem: review: https://github.com/perl6/ecosystem/commit/5d322c3de5
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20:57 AlexDaniel` m: say <a b c>[1 xx 2] with 1
20:57 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «(b b)␤»
20:57 AlexDaniel` m: say <a b c>[$_ xx 2] with 1
20:57 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤  in block  at <tmp> line 1␤Unable to call postcircumfix [ (Any) ] with a type object␤Indexing requires a defined object␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
20:57 AlexDaniel` how come $_ is Nil?
20:58 geekosaur what would be setting it there?
20:59 geekosaur * would be non-Nil, $_ should be whatever it was originally
20:59 geekosaur m: dd $_
20:59 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «Any $_ = Any␤»
20:59 geekosaur oh, hm
20:59 geekosaur so there is a question there. leak?
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21:00 gfldex m: say <a b c>[Any]
21:00 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «Use of Nil in string context␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤Unable to call postcircumfix [ (Any) ] with a type object␤Indexing requires a defined object␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
21:00 geekosaur ok, that's not even talking abotu $_ then, and $_ is indeed Any
21:00 geekosaur so it's an internals leak of some kind
21:00 gfldex not really
21:01 gfldex any non initialised container in a Positional defaults to Nil
21:02 AlexDaniel` oh, it's talking about string context. This makes no sense then, yeah
21:03 AlexDaniel` I was thinking about this
21:03 AlexDaniel` m: <a b c>[“$_” xx 2] with 1
21:03 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «Use of uninitialized value $_ of type Any in string context.␤Methods .^name, .perl, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.␤  in code  at <tmp> line 1␤Use of uninitialized value $_ of type Any in string context.␤Met…»
21:03 perlpilot m: my $x is default(42);  say <a b c>[$x];    # gfldex I didn't init that container!  ;-)
21:03 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «Nil␤»
21:04 AlexDaniel` so $_ is indeed unitialized, but without stringification it blows differently
21:04 AlexDaniel` is it a null object then or something?
21:06 AlexDaniel` m: my ($x, [$y]) = 24, [40, 50, 60]; say <a b c>[$y]
21:06 camelia rakudo-moar a92950fb4: OUTPUT: «Cannot resolve caller postcircumfix:<[ ]>(List, Mu); none of these signatures match:␤    (\SELF, Any:U $type, |c is raw)␤    (\SELF, int $pos)␤    (\SELF, int $pos, Mu \assignee)␤    (\SELF, int $pos, Mu :$BIND! is raw)␤    (\SELF, int $pos,…»
21:06 * AlexDaniel` shrugs
21:15 AlexDaniel` https://www.google.com/search?q="unititialized"
21:17 AlexDaniel` my favorite is from “The Art of Software Security Assessment: Identifying and Preventing Software Vulnerabilities”
21:17 AlexDaniel` so identifying and preventing software vulnerabilities but forgetting to turn the spell checker on?
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21:23 AlexDaniel` but yeah, I guess making that mistake in a ticket title is not as bad as having it in a book :) https://www.google.com/search?q=%22unititialized%22&amp;tbm=bks
21:24 AlexDaniel` anyway, ticket for the issue mentioned above: GH#1212
21:24 synopsebot GH#1212 [open]: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1212 Unitialized $_ and weird blowage (<a b c>[$_ xx 2] with 1)
21:24 AlexDaniel` wait but… it's wrong
21:24 geekosaur wrong misspelling :p
21:24 AlexDaniel` GH#1212
21:25 AlexDaniel` synopsebot: aw come on! I fixed it! Show the right version!
21:25 geekosaur synopsebot wont repeat quickly any more
21:25 geekosaur it knows it just showed it
21:25 AlexDaniel` I know. Anyway, the last one seems to be much more popular in books!
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23:22 Herby_ \o
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23:37 moritz o/
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