Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-12-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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Time Nick Message
00:12 tyil KotlinFan: on my machines
00:12 Zoffix joined #perl6
00:13 Zoffix KotlinFan: I use it for onelines all the time. Our dev bots are all in Perl 6. Also contemplating rewriting our large internal web app at work in Perl 6, though not sure when I'll get a chance to do so. Gonna use Cro. I hear it's popular: http://mi.cro.services
00:13 Hotkeys I use it in codegolf and my advent of code solutions :)
00:15 Zoffix Oh, cool. Edument has a course "Perl 6 for Programmers": https://edument.se/en/coursedetail/Perl-6-for-Programmers
00:16 KotlinFan but Perl 5 still exists
00:16 Zoffix KotlinFan: yeah, it's a different language. Sorta like C and C++
00:18 KotlinFan you know Kotlin language  : http://kotlinlang.org/ ?
00:18 Zoffix First time hearing of it
00:19 Slayerk KotlinFan is an obvious troll
00:20 Slayerk wow didn't realise it's been more than 1 hour since his last post
00:20 Zoffix What makes trolls obvious?
00:21 KotlinFan just  comparing the hyped Kotlin language with Pearl 6
00:21 Slayerk It's like that former US Supreme Court Judge once said
00:21 Slayerk "I can't describe it, but when I see it I know it"
00:21 Zoffix KotlinFan: looks nice. Too bad parens on function calls appear to be mandatory. I hate parens :D
00:22 Hotkeys Zoffix++
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00:23 Zoffix This is neat: https://try.kotlinlang.org/#/Examples/Delegated%20properties/Observable%20property/Observable%20property.kt
00:23 Zoffix We sorta have it in the form of a Proxy.
00:23 Zoffix oorrrr..
00:24 Zoffix eco: Proxee
00:24 buggable Zoffix, Proxee 'A more usable Proxy with bells': https://github.com/zoffixznet/perl6-Proxee
00:24 Zoffix ^_^
00:24 KotlinFan thanks Zoffix...I will have a look
00:25 Zoffix KotlinFan: yeah, flipping through those examples I see a bunch of similarities with what Perl 6 offers. So if you're a Kotlin Fan, you might enjoy Perl 6 too :)
00:26 KotlinFan ok nice...I will really have a look on Pearl 6
00:26 Zoffix \o/
00:43 Zoffix [Coke]: this ever happen to you? Ran spelling test twice without making any changes, first time pass, second time fail: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet/0883e2850ef93389456d4035e15203c1  And another run didn't show one misspelled word on first run; only did on others
00:51 Zoffix m: sub z($i) { await |$i }([(start {sleep 2;}, start { sleep 4; }), (start {sleep 2;}, start { sleep 3; })]); say now - INIT now
00:51 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «0.004645␤»
00:52 Zoffix ah, nm
00:52 Zoffix Thought maybe there's a race somewhere in the Procs that I see missing spell words
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00:55 Slayerk Night all
00:56 Zoffix Or maybe that is it. Why doesn't this wait 4 seconds?
00:56 Zoffix m: sub z($i) { await |$i }; [(start {sleep 2;}, start { sleep 4; }), (start {sleep 2;}, start { sleep 3; })].map: { z $_ }; say now - INIT now
00:56 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «0.0046257␤»
00:56 Zoffix Night
00:56 Zoffix Slayer
00:57 Zoffix m: sub z($i) { await |$i }; [(start {sleep 2;}, start { sleep 4; }), (start {sleep 2;}, start { sleep 3; })]».<>.flat.map: { z $_ }; say now - INIT now
00:57 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «4.0170170␤»
00:57 Zoffix This waits. Somethings offcolour with the await sub
01:01 mspo off color remarks you say
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01:02 mspo to pieces you say
01:02 mspo to shreds you say
01:04 Geth ¦ doc: b71dffa07b | (Zoffix Znet)++ | xt/aspell.t
01:04 Geth ¦ doc: Fix incorrect awaition of results
01:04 Geth ¦ doc:
01:04 Geth ¦ doc: Fixes flops on spelling tests
01:04 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b71dffa07b
01:04 Zoffix [Coke]: nm, it was just a bug in the test: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b71dffa07b
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01:11 Zoffix Ah, it's actually an eagerness bug(?) in one of await() candidates
01:11 Zoffix m: multi sub z(Iterable:D $i) { $i.eager.map: { z $_ } }; multi sub z(*@z) { say "there" }; z ([<a b c>], [<a b c>]),
01:11 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «»
01:11 Zoffix oh wait, nm
01:11 Zoffix ZofBot: never you mind!
01:11 ZofBot Zoffix, I recently also found that not HLLizing yourself, makes code faster
01:12 Zoffix Oh wait, yeaj
01:12 Zoffix m: multi sub z(Iterable:D $i) { say "here"; $i.map: { z $_ } }; multi sub z(*@z) { say "there" }; z ([<a b c>], [<a b c>]),
01:12 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «here␤here␤here␤»
01:12 Zoffix m: multi sub z(Iterable:D $i) { say "here"; eager $i.map: { z $_ } }; multi sub z(*@z) { say "there" }; z ([<a b c>], [<a b c>]),
01:12 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «here␤here␤there␤there␤there␤here␤there␤there␤there␤»
01:12 Zoffix a bug with .map sinkage prolly actually
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01:19 Zoffix nm, no bug (well, one in &await(Iterable:D)`
01:19 Zoffix A trap really:
01:19 Zoffix m: <foo bar ber>.map: *.say
01:19 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «foo␤bar␤ber␤»
01:19 Zoffix m: <foo bar ber>.map: *.comb.map: *.say
01:19 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «»
01:22 Zoffix Filed D##1718
01:22 Zoffix Filed D#1718
01:22 synopsebot D#1718 [open]: https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1718 [LHF] Traps candidate? Sinkage of maps
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01:39 lookatme o/
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02:34 tbrowder hi, lookatme!
02:35 lookatme hi
02:35 adu hi
02:36 Hotkeys hi
02:37 adu is anyone going to say anything else?
02:38 tyil hi
02:38 adu lol
02:38 tyil the advent post is late today :(
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02:57 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
03:06 [Coke] Zoffix: nope, haven't that particular spelling failure mode. :(
03:06 [Coke] Zoffix++
03:07 [Coke] I am working on the code for my post now.
03:08 lookatme why day-20-advancements-in-macrotechnologies is under 2017/12/19
03:10 [Coke] Style comments welcome: https://gist.github.com/coke/2ceeca4f480800512fb14b565bbae6fd (incomplete)
03:10 Zoffix FWIW all the warnings from compilation makes it hard to find where proper errors are at: https://temp.perl6.party/snapshot2.png
03:11 Zoffix lookatme: fixed https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2017/12/20/day-20-advancements-in-macrotechnologies/
03:12 Zoffix It might be a glitch with WP 'cause I'm still in timezone that's in 19th. Published date showed 23:00 of 19th
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03:13 [Coke] Cube::Three.new().R.U2.Rʼ.Uʼ.R.Uʼ.Rʼ.Lʼ.U2.L.U.Lʼ.U.L leaves the cube in the correct config, yay.
03:13 Geth ¦ doc: f49cadb3d5 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 3 files
03:13 Geth ¦ doc: Fix typos
03:13 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/f49cadb3d5
03:13 lookatme oh
03:13 mspo WP has gmtime and the blog's local time
03:14 mspo I don't think it talks about *your* tz at all?
03:14 Zoffix IME it's UI uses GMT in some places and local TZ in other places.
03:14 Zoffix *its
03:17 Zoffix releasable6: release
03:17 releasable6 Zoffix, Next release will happen when it's ready. No blockers. 0 out of 133 commits logged
03:17 releasable6 Zoffix, Details: https://gist.github.com/53f53659173238574a8b13bac11ad6ce
03:17 Zoffix m: "/tmp/foo".IO.spurt: "abc"; with "/tmp/foo".IO.open { .seek: 3, SeekFromBeginning; .read(3).say; .read(3).say; .eof.say }
03:17 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «Buf[uint8]:0x<>␤Buf[uint8]:0x<>␤True␤»
03:17 Zoffix m: "/tmp/foo".IO.spurt: "abc"; with "/tmp/foo".IO.open { .seek: 4, SeekFromBeginning; .read(3).say; .read(3).say; .eof.say }
03:17 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «Buf[uint8]:0x<>␤Buf[uint8]:0x<>␤False␤»
03:17 Zoffix fun :)
03:19 Zoffix See the fix, but gonna keep it in my head. In syncfile.c -> mvm_eof the check is statbuf.st_size == seek_pos but should be statbuf.st_size <= seek_pos, for cases where we seeked past end
03:19 Zoffix *keep until past release I meant
03:20 Zoffix Ad after that's fixed the check for zero-size chunks can go away here: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/dc800d893349540b8d9a79e5c48e49ce8a11f6ae#diff-3c4e4507ba92d2e8db72990d1d4aa83dR240
03:20 Zoffix wc
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03:27 Morfent so rakudo 2016.10 installs fine on openbsd ignoring the difficulty with getting java installed
03:28 Morfent but it has the same problem with dns resolution as freebsd has
03:30 Morfent nqp itself installs fine, it's just the jdk that's awkward to install
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03:44 Morfent i'm thinking there might be a difference between gnu and bsd's implementations of getdomainname that might be screwing things up
03:45 Morfent that's more a moarvm thing though
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04:28 Herby_ o/
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04:33 Herby_ \o
04:39 Geth ¦ doc: da5a52a6ba | (Zoffix Znet)++ | 2 files
04:39 Geth ¦ doc: Fix nbsp xtest issues
04:39 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/da5a52a6ba
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07:12 nine m: say <what>
07:12 evalable6 nine, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «what␤»
07:13 nine moritz: was probably some network issue?
07:15 moritz nine: possibly. I'm restarting camelia now, and hope she re-joins
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07:19 piojo I found something wrong with the way perl6 executes subprocesses on windows.
07:19 piojo Almost every command I've tried is failing. For example, this gives no output: perl6 -e "shell 'python -c \"print(4)\"'"
07:21 piojo And simple stuff like shell('perl -e "use v5.18;"') gives a bad exit code.
07:22 piojo (Actually, that one fails with a different error--"Can't find string terminator '"' anywhere before EOF at -e line 1."
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07:22 piojo ). I think rakudo must be trying to do Bash shell quoting in CMD
07:23 nine piojo: do those examples work when you put them into scripts or execute them from the REPL?
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07:23 piojo nine: I believe they also fail in scripts, because I noticed this due to Perl5::Inline having a related build failure
07:24 piojo And these commands work when typed on the command line without being invoked by rakudo.
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07:25 piojo But the "Can't find string terminator" error is exactly what happens if I try to run a command with 'an argument' instead of "an argument"
07:27 piojo so I'm pretty sure illegal quoting is the problem, or at least part of it. I think this worked a few months ago
07:27 piojo any idea what logic handles shell quoting?
07:27 nine I know Inline::Perl5's installation worked on Windows at one time at least.
07:30 piojo qx fails the same way
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08:44 lookatme piojo, the string terminator is CMD's problem, I think
08:44 piojo lookatme: that's taking "not my problem" to a whole new level :P
08:45 piojo "not a bug, just use bash"
08:46 lookatme Is Perl6 has a shortcut start Perl6 REPL like Python ??
08:46 jast just run 'perl6'
08:46 lookatme :) No, user don't want open a cmd, just want click it
08:47 jast then make a shortcut that runs perl6
08:47 lookatme This is Windows logical :)
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09:11 riceandbeans what's the difference between rakudo and perl6?
09:12 riceandbeans I thought rakudo was just a jvm implementation of it and now I'm reading you can have a backend that is C based and that one was written specifically for rakudo perl6 so I'm wondering what differs
09:12 lookatme Perl6 is a language, like Python
09:13 lookatme rakudo like CPython
09:13 lookatme or other Python
09:13 riceandbeans OK, but then where do you fit in MoarVM
09:13 riceandbeans :(
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09:40 * masak just found the concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muntzing which is similar in spirit to bug golfing
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09:45 pmurias riceandbeans: rakudo can target both JVM and MoarVM
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09:46 El_Che pmurias: add js to the moarvm mix :)
09:46 riceandbeans When was non jvm support added, but still how does rakudo differ from whatever perl6 guideline
09:46 riceandbeans I don't remember the term used, but I remember reading a perl6 has to do this and that and anything that does this and that is a perl6
09:47 El_Che spec tests?
09:47 El_Che test suite?
09:47 riceandbeans maybe I'm not making sense
09:48 pmurias riceandbeans: Perl 6 is the language, Rakudo is the implementation
09:48 riceandbeans how does the rakudo implementation of perl6 differ from any others
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09:48 pmurias riceandbeans: other implemantations are as far as I know mostly not actively developed
09:49 pmurias riceandbeans: Perl6 is Python, Rakudo is  CPython and Jython
09:49 Ven` o/
09:49 riceandbeans right right it's just weird because of the varied backends and it being the only one
09:49 Ven` Zoffix: very sorry about that. Since I had set a "release at", I thought "publish" would instead publish it immediately... Oops.
09:50 pmurias riceandbeans: it makes sense to reuse the frontend
09:50 riceandbeans why not just call it perl6?
09:51 riceandbeans Maybe I'm just dumb, I think it's confusing
09:52 riceandbeans Like with Ruby when I had to figure out what happened when they had MRI and merged YARV with it
09:53 Ven` riceandbeans: because when you say "I'm using Ruby" you can't really know if it's MRI, MRB, JRuby, Rubinius, ...
09:54 El_Che riceandbeans: the idea is to leave to door open for alternative implementations
09:55 riceandbeans what was the last attempt at one?
09:56 masak Ven++ # https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/2017/12/20/day-20-advancements-in-macrotechnologies/
09:57 masak current status about infix:<ff> -- it sits in a branch, and it's "one failing test from being merged"
09:57 masak but behind that test is an unexpected host of conceptual challenges that I'm currently grappling with
09:58 El_Che riceandbeans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6#Historical_implementations
09:58 masak I have a solution, but I feel a bit like the pirate chief who enters a deal with higher powers without fully understanding the consequences
09:59 masak Ven`: in order to address lizmat++'s (and possibly others') confusion in the backlog, maybe add `# 007 code` at the top of the top code snippet?
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10:03 Ven` Fair enough :-).
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10:09 masak oh, I meant as a *comment* *in* the code snippet
10:09 masak sorry, backseat editing is Hard™
10:10 Ven` I know you did, but I think it's fine that way, isn't it?
10:10 El_Che masak: you're doing fine :)
10:10 masak on the hypothesis that people skim sometimes, and the eye seeks out the first non-para thing
10:10 masak at least mine do
10:11 masak by the way, I realized far too late in 007's trajectory that the examples/ directory shouldn't be filled with fluff like fizzbuzz.007 :P
10:11 moritz masak: git rm or git mv can help :-)
10:12 masak it's one of those growth effects. the fizzbuzz example was impressive in 2016, when we were still fleshing out the basic language. less so in late 2017, when we're racing towards full macro capability.
10:12 masak moritz: aye; the plan is to phase out the old examples gradually as we land real macro examples
10:12 riceandbeans well, let's see if rakudo compiles for me
10:12 El_Che git mv examples fluff; mkdir example
10:13 masak hah
10:13 masak we're pretty good at testing the examples -- and those tests are very usefull because they exercise the language
10:13 masak I've decided that the old examples get to survive as such tests
10:13 masak but yes, maybe renamed as "fluff" or similar
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11:01 piojo masak: IMO we don't test examples in modules nearly enough
11:02 piojo I mean external files. Not necessarily modules.
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11:15 Zoffix nine: camelia is still not back. Note that when you ran `m: say <what>` it was the backup evalable6 bot that responded, not camelia
11:19 sjn .u 
11:19 yoleaux No characters found
11:19 sjn huh
11:19 Zoffix piojo: "that's taking "not my problem" to a whole new level :P"   it's more of taking a hard problem that doesn't seem to have a single solution: https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/twistylittlepassagesallalike/2011/04/23/everyone-quotes-command-line-arguments-the-wrong-way/
11:20 Zoffix piojo: it even affects run() with $*EXECUTABLE on windows, because it's a .bat file that uses cmd.exe and so needs cmd.exe's special quoting: RT#132258
11:20 synopsebot RT#132258 [new]: https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=132258 [SECURITY][WINDOWS] `run "perl6" ...` can be made to execute shell commands
11:21 piojo Zoffix: thanks, that will be an interesting read. BTW, I just bisected it and reported it: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1325
11:22 piojo Zoffix: I use cygwin, and I completely bypass perl6.bat, because frankly it's rubbish
11:22 piojo (It might not be its fault--I shouldn't judge)
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11:23 Zoffix There was also this R#1306
11:23 synopsebot R#1306 [closed]: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1306 [RFC] [RFC] add Proc/Proc::Async arg quoting modifiers
11:23 piojo but a cygwin rakudo wrapper can handle any type of arguments, whereas the included perl6.bat can't
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11:27 nine Zoffix: looks like packages from the outside don't make it back to virbr0, so the VM never gets them
11:27 Zoffix piojo: so you're using Cygwin with the R#1325? May be worth mentioning. Also, mention the Rakudo version you're using
11:27 synopsebot R#1325 [open]: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1325 Shell quoting is wrong on Windows
11:28 riceandbeans my rakudo-test failed :\
11:28 piojo Zoffix: I reproduced using CMD, for cleanest results
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11:31 Zoffix riceandbeans: what OS are you using? Also, what are you building?
11:31 Zoffix piojo: but you'd need proper quoting for CMD.exe, wouldn't you?
11:33 Zoffix piojo: I get the same sort of issues when I put qx/perl -e "say 42"/ in a script and run it with perl 5
11:33 piojo Zoffix: I meant my comment about the "perl6.bat" argument handling in relation to one of the other links you mentioned. that seems like a windows batch programming bug, not a perl issue at all
11:35 piojo Zoffix: It works for me. It should be: print qx/perl -E "say 42"/
11:36 Zoffix Ah
11:37 Zoffix Yeah, works for me too
11:43 riceandbeans Zoffix: DragonFly BSD
11:44 riceandbeans Zoffix: just followed the steps on building
11:47 piojo Zoffix: the least wrong solution is to let the user decide how to quote, and pass the string verbatim to CMD
11:47 piojo i.e., apply no additional substitution or logic.
11:48 piojo I think we can do better, but that's the easy correct solution. Unless I'm missing a detail of how CMD is invoked.
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11:50 Zoffix riceandbeans: I don't think we have any volunteers currently actively ensuring builds work on BSDs, but you could report your issue, along with full output of failures, so someone could take a look: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/new
11:56 El_Che it builds on osx, so other bsd flavours should work, no?
11:56 riceandbeans it's not quite like linux where the 'flavours' are related
11:57 riceandbeans with linux it's the same kernel, just different versions and different userland tools on top
11:57 El_Che darwin was based on freebsd, I thought
11:57 riceandbeans with the BSDs the kernels are different in each one, the userlands are different in each, and nothing is inherently compatible from one to the other, they share common ancestry
11:58 Zoffix AlexDaniel`: "<AlexDaniel> fwiw branches are cheap so this shouldn't be stopping anyone from committing (not to master tho)". On personal experience, it ain't that cheap. It's branches on 4 different repos + you either can't ver bump or have to suffer through merge conflicts. Currently, I can't be arsed to go through this. My 2 cents.
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11:58 lizmat Ven`: looks like some <ff> are missing from your blogpost ?
11:59 riceandbeans darwin took parts from various BSDs at various versions over time, a fair amount from freebsd, but it is its own kernel
11:59 lizmat Ven` : shouldn't "macro infix:(lhs, rhs)" be "macro infix:<ff>(lhs, rhs)" ???
11:59 AlexDaniel` Zoffix: ok point taken. Sorry for the delay :)
11:59 riceandbeans osx binaries aren't abi compatible with freebsd
12:00 Ven` lizmat: fixed
12:00 parv riceandbeans, 1 test has been failing consistently on FreeBSD 11. I had filed a bug report on Github.
12:00 riceandbeans anyway, I'm kind of passing out it's like 4am here I'll file an issue later
12:00 Ven` seems like the MD converter kept that as <ff>, and wp removed it...
12:00 riceandbeans parv: I'll look intoi t more when I'm more awake
12:00 parv ok. for ref: https://rt.perl.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=131237
12:01 parv ok filed not on Github but on RT
12:01 riceandbeans well, before I lay down parv , t/05-messages/02-errors.t ................... Failed 1/1 subtests
12:02 parv riceandbeans, that's different than mine (t/04-nativecall/02-simple-args.t line 62)
12:02 Zoffix AlexDaniel`: it might be fairly easy if the dev just keeps master HEAD of all rakudo/nqp/MoarVM like timotimo does and builds stuff separately but I don't know how to do this :o
12:02 piojo Zoffix: I'm now thinking we shouldn't quote/escape/modify shell() args at all, because it's convoluted. First we would need to parse it into individual arguments, then re-package them as a properly formatted string. But that goes against the whole point of what shell() claims to do.
12:03 piojo shell() is supposed to let the shell do all the parsing.
12:03 Zoffix piojo: would be good to have comments on the ticket so others could read them too :)
12:03 piojo good point, thanks
12:04 parv rest, riceandbeans. I am going to too
12:06 * Zoffix &
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12:11 AlexDaniel` sjn: use u: instead of .u :)
12:11 AlexDaniel` u: 
12:11 unicodable6 AlexDaniel`, U+E0FF <Private Use-E0FF> [Co] ()
12:31 stmuk parv: I thought I'd seen a full PASS on FreeBSD since Apr but will check
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12:45 perlawhi1l hrm
12:45 perlawhi1l hi perlers
12:45 perlawhi1l can I do sets of lists?
12:45 perlawhi1l m: say Set((0, 1), (1, 1), (1, 2)) (|) Set((1, 1), (2, 1), (2, 2))
12:45 evalable6 perlawhi1l, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «set(0 1 2)␤»
12:46 perlawhi1l setops (eg. ∪ ) seem to work fine with typed Hashes (ie. %set{List})... can I Type my sets?
12:50 perlawhi1l scratch that... typed Hashes ain't working. So... how can i do List Sets?
12:51 perlawhi1l I guess... I can... stringify my Lists for the keys :/
12:53 moritz lists are not value types (they are lazy), so they make terrible hash or set keys
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12:57 perlawhi1l hmm, yeah... i just found some relevant discussion
12:57 perlawhi1l https://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2016-09-23#i_13260617
12:57 perlawhi1l seems theres also the issue of how List's are compared
12:58 perlawhi1l so... looks like stringifying my keys is the best option so far. perhaps we need a new 'FrozenList' type, lol
12:59 perlawhi1l or is that ImmutableArray (an oxymoron in Perl 6 :D)
13:00 moritz we might need a tupel type
13:00 moritz we used to have Parcel that kinda, somewhat fit that niche
13:00 moritz but it's been removed during the Great List Refactoring
13:01 perlawhi1l as long as we as a community agree to saying it "tupple" and not "toople", i'm down
13:01 perlawhi1l actually yeah! resurrecting Parcel would be a cool thing
13:03 moritz it's tupper ware for memory!
13:06 lizmat moritz: I have a patch for making Lists that consist of decontainerized values be a value type
13:06 perlawhi1l oooooh
13:06 lizmat but it has a few issues and it will be definitely post 2017.12
13:06 perlawhi1l lizmat++
13:06 Ven` lizmat++
13:06 perlawhi1l that's cool... nice to know it's in the works
13:06 Ven` having tooples sounds cool :D.
13:07 perlawhi1l damnit Ven!
13:07 perlawhi1l I bet you say "jif", too
13:07 lizmat fwiw, I do think Lists and Arrays are a bit too conflated atm
13:07 stmuk parv: roast has PASS but you are right t/04-nativecall/02-simple-args.t from moar tests has been failing on FreeBSD obviousily for some time
13:08 Ven` perlawhi1l: I actually alternate between both pronunciations :P
13:08 Ven` just to confuse people
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13:08 lizmat .oO( you say tomato )
13:09 Ven` it's a-boot time.
13:10 perlawhi1l Parcel has such a perlish vibe to it... though, adding another Positional container isn't going to help the conflation issues lizmat mentioned
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13:12 Zoffix "adding another Positional container isn't going to help the conflation issues".... So put it out into ecosystem as a module.
13:13 Zoffix m: say Set($(0, 1), $(1, 1), $(1, 2)) (|) Set($(1, 1), $(2, 1), $(2, 2))
13:13 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «set((0 1) (1 1) (1 1) (1 2) (2 1) (2 2))␤»
13:13 Zoffix perlawhi1l: ^ they were just being all flattened in a slurpy
13:14 perlawhi1l Zoffix++
13:15 Zoffix m: my $l = (1, 1); say Bag($(0, 1), $l, $l, $(1, 1), $(2, 1), $(2, 2)){$l}
13:15 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «2␤»
13:16 Zoffix There's this problem, but it should be resolved by the patch lizmat++ mentioned
13:16 Zoffix (would then give `3` as result there)
13:27 lizmat hmmm... seems I misplaced the patch...
13:27 lizmat Ah, I realise what the problem was:  from the .WHICH of an object itself you cannot see whether something is a value type or not
13:28 lizmat m: my $a = 42; say $a.WHICH   # disregards container here
13:28 evalable6 lizmat, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «Int|42␤»
13:28 Zoffix Ah
13:29 lizmat m: my $a = (1,2,3); say $a[0].WHICH   # no container
13:29 evalable6 lizmat, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «Int|1␤»
13:29 Zoffix m: use nqp; -> \obj { my \z = nqp::istype(obj, Iterable) ?? obj !! obj.list; dd z }( :foo({:ber(80)}).Pair )
13:29 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(:foo({:ber(80)}),)␤»
13:29 lizmat m: my $a = [1,2,3]; say $a[0].WHICH  # has container, but still disregarded
13:29 evalable6 lizmat, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «Int|1␤»
13:29 Zoffix m: use nqp; -> \obj { my \z = nqp::istype(obj, Iterable) ?? obj !! obj.list; dd z }( (:foo({:ber(80)}),) )
13:29 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(:foo({:ber(80)}),)␤»
13:29 Zoffix Same result, right?
13:30 Zoffix m: dd gather { deepmap {.take}, (:foo{:80ber},) }
13:30 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(:foo({:ber(80)}),).Seq␤»
13:30 Zoffix m: dd gather { deepmap {.take}, (:foo{:80ber}.Pair) }
13:30 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(:ber(80),).Seq␤»
13:31 Zoffix Yet, different result here. It goes through here, so I'd thought based on first code above the result for the second code would be the same :S https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/4fca94743/src/core/Rakudo/Internals.pm#L1447-L1449
13:32 ruschlem_ joined #perl6
13:32 Zoffix Ooh, wait. No it doesn't go through there :P
13:32 Zoffix The .Pair version goes through here: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/4fca94743/src/core/metaops.pm#L652
13:32 lizmat well, the coremap / deepmap / whatever map is still a bit of a hacky area of Rakudo, imo
13:33 Zoffix Gonna try to add a `Pair` candidate, 'cause currently `gather { @meows».take }` breaks up Pairs into values, which is kinda sucky
13:34 Zoffix m: dd gather { %(:42foo, :bar{:_{:_{:40meows}}})».take }
13:34 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(40, 42).Seq␤»
13:34 Zoffix m: dd gather { (:42foo, :bar{:_{:_{:40meows}}})».take }
13:34 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(:foo(42), :bar({:_(${:_(${:meows(40)})})})).Seq␤»
13:35 lizmat yeah, that difference feels wrong
13:35 lizmat a hash should be an iterable of Pairs
13:35 Zoffix mhm
13:35 lizmat not of values
13:36 lizmat m: my %h = a => 42, b => 666; dd $_ for %h
13:36 evalable6 lizmat, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «:a(42)␤:b(666)␤»
13:36 lizmat m: dd $_ for a => 42, b => 66
13:36 evalable6 lizmat, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «:a(42)␤:b(66)␤»
13:37 Zoffix AlexDaniel`: actually, it's 6 repos, not 5 :) nqp + rakudo + MoarVM + roast + docs :)
13:38 AlexDaniel` :)
13:39 Zoffix I mean 5 repos not 4.
13:39 Zoffix ZofBot: counting is hard. Let's go shopping.
13:39 ZofBot Zoffix, But a strong man does need an occasional holiday, and I made up my mind that I would get it
13:39 Zoffix You're having way too many holidays, robot.
13:41 pmurias What do robots celebrate? Judgment Day?
13:42 Zoffix Holy Robanukah
13:42 Zoffix http://theinfosphere.org/Robanukah
13:43 moritz Independence Day! :-9
13:47 poohman joined #perl6
13:48 Zoffix Man, &nodemap is document, but it has precisely 1 test for it in the spec: https://github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master/S03-metaops/hyper.t#L425
13:48 Zoffix *documented
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13:50 Zoffix R#370
13:50 synopsebot R#370 [closed]: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/370 Main single positional
13:50 Zoffix S#370
13:50 synopsebot S#370 [open]: https://github.com/perl6/roast/issues/370 `nodemap` is virtually untested
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: c625923d77 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/Any.pod6
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: Make `does` more palatable on a plural
13:54 Geth ¦ doc:
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: Also make other linkable things in paragraph
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: actual links readers could follow
13:54 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Any
13:54 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/c625923d77
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14:42 Thrush You know how:  $string = $string.flip;  can be shortened to:  $string .= flip; ?  Well, what would be the equivalent of a chain, like this:  $string = $string.lc.flip.tc.flip; ?
14:43 Zoffix m: my $string = 'meows'; $string .= lc .= flip .= tc .= flip; say $string
14:43 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «meowS␤»
14:45 Thrush Thanks, Zoffix.  Is there a way for me to look at that so it seems more logical?  I just can't see how replacing all the '.' with '.=' would work.
14:45 Thrush Zoffix:  Or rather, "should" work.
14:46 Zoffix m: my $string = "meows"; $_ = .lc.flip.tc.flip with $string; say $string  # I'd write it like that tho
14:46 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «meowS␤»
14:47 Zoffix Thrush: picture the "." and ".=" as operators between a thing on the left and a method name on the right. If you write it as $string .= lc.flip.tc.flip you're saying "call .lc on $string and put it into $string, then on the result call the rest of the methods and discard that result"
14:47 khw joined #perl6
14:47 Zoffix $string .= lc.flip.tc.flip; is like ($string .= lc).flip.tc.flip
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14:51 geekosaur this belongs in traps. or we should reconsider precedence somehow
14:52 Zoffix Or alternatively: "." means "call method and return result"; ".=" means "call method and assign result back into original thing"; Then, $string .= lc.flip.tc.flip => "call lc and save result into original, then call flip and return result, call lc and return result and call flip and return result"
14:55 Thrush Zoffix:  So what if I were to use:  $string .= lc.flip.=tc.flip ?  How would the mix of '.' and '.=' play out?
14:57 Thrush m: my $string = "meows"; $string .= lc.flip.=tc.flip; say $string;
14:57 evalable6 Thrush, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) Cannot modify an immutable Str (swoem)␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/HWWj9VqldU line 1␤␤»
14:57 Zoffix m: say '$string .= lc.flip.=tc.flip'.trans: [<. .=>] => ['call method and return result', 'call method and assign the value to LHS']
14:57 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «$string call method and assign the value to LHS lccall method and return resultflipcall method and assign the value to LHStccall method and return resultflip␤»
14:57 Zoffix m: say '$string .= lc.flip.=tc.flip'.trans: [<. .=>] => [' (call method and return result) ', ' (call method and assign the value to LHS) ']
14:57 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «$string  (call method and assign the value to LHS)  lc (call method and return result) flip (call method and assign the value to LHS) tc (call method and return result) flip␤»
14:57 Zoffix m: say '$string .= lc.flip.=tc.flip'.trans: [<. .=>] => [' (call method and return result) ', ' (call method and assign the value to LHS and return result) ']
14:58 evalable6 Zoffix, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «$string  (call method and assign the value to LHS and return result)  lc (call method and return result) flip (call method and assign the value to LHS and return result) tc (call method and return result) flip␤»
14:58 Zoffix Thrush: ^ that'd happen :) And the error you saw above is because one of the assignments tries to assign the value into an immutable value returned by one of the methods
14:58 jast joined #perl6
14:58 * Zoffix &
15:00 rindolf joined #perl6
15:01 Thrush Zoffix:  Okay, thank you.  You've been a great help.
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15:22 Zoffix \o/
15:29 pmurias joined #perl6
15:31 Geth ¦ doc: 72e179f57a | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 2 files
15:31 Geth ¦ doc: Document .skip(WhateverCode)
15:31 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/72e179f57a
15:33 * [Coke] realizes that there's no way he's going to finish this entire module by friday and instead concentrates on getting the blog post to a satisfying conclusion with what's available.
15:34 * Zoffix perks up upon hearing that Friday is that close...
15:34 comborico1611 joined #perl6
15:34 lizmat [Coke]: would it help if we would switch slots ?
15:34 lizmat aka 22 <-> 24
15:35 grumble joined #perl6
15:35 [Coke] lizmat: ... crap, that might give me enough time. :|\
15:35 lizmat so is that a yes or a no ?
15:35 brakmic joined #perl6
15:35 lizmat :-)
15:36 [Coke] Eh. I think it'll still be fine as is. if you give me more time, I will expand to fill it, and that's not necessarily good; I think we'll end up with a decent post.
15:36 [Coke] I appreciate your kind offer, however.
15:36 lizmat ok, well, let me know if you can't make the deadline anyway... I intend to finish mine tonight or early tomorrow
15:37 [Coke] Roger.
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16:19 scimon Mines all ready to go :) Looking forward to it.
16:21 moritz \o/
16:30 El_Che boom
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17:03 * lizmat notes that Lock::Async is undocumented  :-(
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18:23 Geth ¦ doc: 3afac8fcc2 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/pod.pod6
18:23 Geth ¦ doc: mark formats that are NYI
18:23 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/3afac8fcc2
18:23 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/pod
18:23 lizmat https://tyil.nl/articles/funding-yourself-as-free-software-developer.html   # tyil++
18:24 lizmat *and* at #2 at https://news.ycombinator.com
18:36 * [Coke] wonders if we have any developers using patreon or some other system.
18:36 [Coke] perl in general, not just sixers.
18:37 lizmat gabor maybe?
18:39 [Coke] lizmat: ah, https://www.patreon.com/szabgab
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18:51 Geth ¦ doc: 24fe425d27 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/Lock/Async.pod6
18:51 Geth ¦ doc: First stab at documenting Lock::Async
18:51 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/24fe425d27
18:51 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Lock/Async
18:53 [Coke] lizmat: why is Kept capitalized?
18:54 lizmat m: my $p = Promise.new; $p.keep; say $p.status   # that's why, although it may be a poor reason
18:54 evalable6 lizmat, rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «Kept␤»
18:58 [Coke] m: my $p = Promise.new; $p.keep; say $p.status.^name;
18:58 evalable6 [Coke], rakudo-moar 334b87226: OUTPUT: «PromiseStatus␤»
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19:22 timotimo [Coke]: szabgab just recently posted on his blog about perl and patreon
19:25 tyil [Coke]: yes, me :p
19:26 tyil on the wondering if anyone uses patreon
19:29 [Coke] tyil: URL?
19:30 tyil https://www.tyil.nl/donate.html for the general page (exists since today), https://www.patreon.com/bePatron?c=1401236 for my patreon page
19:31 tyil all feedback would be appreciated tbh
19:34 Geth ¦ doc: b5a8a43e4b | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/Telemetry/Sampler.pod6
19:34 Geth ¦ doc: First stab at documenting Telemetry::Sampler
19:34 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/b5a8a43e4b
19:34 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Telemetry/Sampler
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19:56 masak +1 on lower-casing "kept" when it's used normally in a sentence ;)
20:00 Geth ¦ doc: bce40f1b28 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/Lock/Async.pod6
20:00 Geth ¦ doc: s/Kept/kept/ by popular demand
20:00 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/bce40f1b28
20:00 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Lock/Async
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20:23 Geth ¦ doc: abbd0c9f73 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/atomicint.pod6
20:23 Geth ¦ doc: Document atomic-(inc|dec)-fetch, aka ++⚛  and --⚛
20:23 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/abbd0c9f73
20:23 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/atomicint
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20:57 AlexDaniel should “perl5” be written with nbsp? I thought it's a thing in perl 6 only
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21:00 [Coke] both, so that you never have a dangling Perl.
21:02 armin joined #perl6
21:06 lizmat yup, that's the idea
21:09 lancew joined #perl6
21:11 AlexDaniel well, I usually write it as “Perl5”… :)
21:11 AlexDaniel don't want to offend anyone with unicode nbsp :)
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22:44 Geth ¦ doc: 8efd70fc03 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/Blob.pod6
22:44 Geth ¦ doc: Document Blob.allocate
22:44 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/8efd70fc03
22:44 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Blob
22:55 Geth ¦ doc: a066bb9549 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | doc/Type/Buf.pod6
22:55 Geth ¦ doc: Document Buf.reallocate
22:55 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/a066bb9549
22:55 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Buf
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23:14 [Coke] lizmat++ lotsadocsa.
23:14 lizmat ADD   # Advent Driven Documentation  :-)
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23:53 Geth ¦ doc: 19ecebc1ec | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Array.pod6
23:53 Geth ¦ doc: Revert "Revert "Document Array.gist""
23:53 Geth ¦ doc:
23:53 Geth ¦ doc: This reverts commit 08c0b3656f24961a3df50e41c46fa254a29a87c9.
23:53 Geth ¦ doc:
23:53 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/type/Array
23:53 Geth ¦ doc: Method got brought back:
23:53 Geth ¦ doc: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/08539c43d2
23:53 Geth ¦ doc: https://github.com/perl6/roast/commit/5a0beb5afb
23:53 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/19ecebc1ec
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