Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-12-23

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:25 AlexDaniel err that didn't go live did it
00:26 AlexDaniel fxd
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00:39 timotimo there it is!
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00:46 kilobyte Hi! (Not even a perl6 user yet, messing with fonts); I just learned perl6 uses 「」 in its preferred syntax.  Are there other such characters that are unlikely to be found in minimal fonts?
00:48 AlexDaniel kilobyte: everything that is listed here basically: https://docs.perl6.org/language/unicode_ascii
00:48 AlexDaniel huggable: uni
00:48 huggable AlexDaniel, «»×÷−∘≅πτ𝑒∞…‘’‚“”„「」⁺⁻¯⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹∅∈∉∋∌⊆⊈⊂⊄⊇⊉⊃⊅≼≽∪∩∖⊖⊍⊎⁇‼≤≥≠$¢⚛
00:48 kilobyte AlexDaniel: thanks!
00:48 AlexDaniel huggable: uni :is: «»×÷−∘≅πτ𝑒∞…‘’‚“”„「」⁺⁻¯⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹∅∈∉∋∌⊆⊈⊂⊄⊇⊉⊃⊅≼≽∪∩∖⊖⊍⊎≤≥≠$¢⚛
00:48 huggable AlexDaniel, Added uni as «»×÷−∘≅πτ𝑒∞…‘’‚“”„「」⁺⁻¯⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹∅∈∉∋∌⊆⊈⊂⊄⊇⊉⊃⊅≼≽∪∩∖⊖⊍⊎≤≥≠$¢⚛
00:51 kilobyte I mean, stuff that's not merely allowed (like 𐌲𐍉𐌸𐌹c identifiers in perl5 with "use utf8"), just ones that are likely to be found in real non-fancy code
00:52 * kilobyte cares about codepoint-starved environments, such as vt (256/512 glyphs available, taken mostly by letters)
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01:03 AlexDaniel kilobyte: that sounds very sad :)
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01:05 kilobyte AlexDaniel: default glyph set for the console on Debian looks like it has been last visited in the previous millenium, it could use a refresh
01:05 kilobyte AlexDaniel: also, x terminal font authors need to be told which glyphs to prioritize
01:06 kilobyte I mean, in my current font 「」 look nice when borrowed from other fonts, ⚛ spills over taking almost two positions
01:07 geekosaur X11 stuff defers that to your .fontconfig
01:07 geekosaur and terminals intrinsically have no good way to deal with character widths
01:07 kilobyte I can set this up on my personal machine, yeah -- but 99.99% of users don't know how
01:09 kilobyte geekosaur: right, I asked for clarification, which resulted in the yellow text on https://www.unicode.org/reports/tr11/tr11-34.html (will need another iteration to request a table which _is_ intended for use)
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01:28 buggable New CPAN upload: PDF-Font-Loader-0.1.6.tar.gz by WARRINGD https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/W/WA/WARRINGD/Perl6/PDF-Font-Loader-0.1.6.tar.gz
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02:12 manchicken So, if it's not "CPAN," what are we calling it? Just "modules.perl6.org"? That's so boring.
02:14 dylanwh mp6o
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02:17 TEttinger ogduu
02:18 TEttinger mp6o upside down
02:18 manchicken hah
02:18 manchicken 6PAN?
02:19 manchicken DPAN?
02:19 geekosaur CPAN is CPAN. CPAN supports both perl 5 and perl 6. CPAN is not modules.perl6.org. I think modules.perl6.org is transitional and you'd use metacpan.org or similar instead eventually
02:19 manchicken Oh, really? That's cool.
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02:56 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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03:15 Zoffix It's not quite the plan any more. The metacpan fork was limping all along and last time I got the update about it it was "stalled but not yet dead", which is why CPAN support was added to mp6o. My crystal ball says mp6o's featureset will slightly develop further for ~2 years, then there'll be move to write proper Rakudo version of the site. Perl 5 version just isn't working out, the way I see it.
03:15 Zoffix manchicken, CPAN is CPAN. It has support for both Pumpkin Perl 5 and Rakudo Perl 6 modules. It's one of our ecosystems, with the other being GitHub/GitLab based, called "p6c". The modules.perl6.org ("mp6o") is the front-end for both of those ecosystems
03:16 manchicken Aww... I like metacpan.
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03:17 geekosaur so do I, and I didn't realize it was moribund :(
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03:18 Zoffix I imagine plugging in multiple ecosystem + multiple auths into it could be complicated (never seen its code tho).
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03:19 Zoffix + it's in Perl 5, so limited contributor force, if you consider the pool of Perl 6 programmers. I know Perl 5, but even then, it's just unfun to code in and feels like "work"
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03:28 manchicken I still love Perl 5.
03:30 Zoffix manchicken: great :) Maybe you could kill a couple of mp6o's issues: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues
03:30 Zoffix manchicken: this one in particular is in high demand: https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues/81
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03:32 manchicken So much to do.
03:33 manchicken Was going to implement Fcntl in p6.
03:33 manchicken Trying to determine approach. Thinking that I'd make a C program to print the constants to a module that can be pulled in by the Perl 6 module.
03:34 manchicken I could use NativeCall, but it seems silly.
03:34 manchicken But do we think that the mp6o's stuff is higher priority?
03:35 Zoffix briefly glancing at Fcntl's perldoc, doesn't look like something I'd ever need. there's .lock and .seek on IO::Handle. Dunno what else Fcntl does
03:36 Zoffix https://github.com/perl6/modules.perl6.org/issues/81 is kinda high priority in that P6Weekly used to always include new module releases, but now it doesn't because we got to ecosystem and whatnot and the Recent Modules page would be handy for Weekly and whatnot.
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03:38 manchicken Fcntl gives you your standard C constants.
03:38 Zoffix Ah, I don't know C
03:38 manchicken Modules like open2/open3 use it.
03:38 manchicken It's a foundational module.
03:41 manchicken A bunch of the modules on the wishlist—at least in their P5 implementation—use Fcntl.
03:43 Zoffix \o
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03:44 teatime AlexDaniel: still around?
03:44 AlexDaniel a bit
03:44 teatime I'm still looking at your sleep graph.  Curious how you handle the inevitability of forgetting to record a day's data.
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04:01 Hotkeys never forget
04:09 AlexDaniel teatime: yeah, I just hit a button on my laptop whenever I wake up or go to bed. Really not that hard
04:09 AlexDaniel given that I check email anyway right when I wake up
04:09 teatime gotcha
04:11 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: manchicken++ created pull request #41: Starting work at Fcntl.
04:11 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/pull/41
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04:22 manchicken Anybody know if we have a P6 equivalent of https://metacpan.org/source/NWCLARK/ExtUtils-Constant-0.24/lib/ExtUtils/Constant.pm ?
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07:27 manchicken OK, I'm going to bed. Enough Perling for one day.
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07:39 titsuki_ Yesterday, I questioned how to call wikipedia recent change API. But happy to say I found a quick and dirty solution: https://gist.github.com/titsuki/6d99620463857a071309ed4764b6b543
07:39 titsuki_ so disregard my question :)
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07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: e1486bb9a6 | (Michael D. Stemle, Jr)++ | most-wanted/modules.md
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: Starting work at Fcntl.
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/commit/e1486bb9a6
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: 156cac8306 | (Michael D. Stemle, Jr)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | most-wanted/modules.md
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: Merge pull request #41 from manchicken/master
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted:
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: Starting work at Fcntl.
07:56 Geth ¦ perl6-most-wanted: review: https://github.com/perl6/perl6-most-wanted/commit/156cac8306
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08:41 Geth ¦ doc: 9c40dc9c39 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Language/testing.pod6
08:41 Geth ¦ doc: Document `cmp-ok` can't take meta ops as Str
08:41 Geth ¦ doc:
08:41 Geth ¦ doc: Addresses https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/1333
08:41 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/9c40dc9c39
08:41 synopsebot Link: https://doc.perl6.org/language/testing
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10:16 bioexpress Hello, is there a way to use a variable as the key of a named parameter?  https://gist.github.com/anonymous/87d71b864e7e076f8c42308c2ea80105
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10:27 Hotkeys m: sub foo (:$a = 1) { say $a }; foo("a" => 2).say
10:27 evalable6 Hotkeys, rakudo-moar a04c61647: OUTPUT: «(exit code 1) Too many positionals passed; expected 0 arguments but got 1␤  in sub foo at /tmp/OcA7Ro_FaS line 1␤  in block <unit> at /tmp/OcA7Ro_FaS line 1␤␤»
10:34 Hotkeys m: sub foo (:$a = 1) { say $a }; my $key = "a"; foo(|($key => 2))
10:34 evalable6 Hotkeys, rakudo-moar a04c61647: OUTPUT: «2␤»
10:34 Hotkeys bioexpress: ^^
10:34 Hotkeys Stick the pair in a slip and it works fine
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11:10 bioexpress Hotkeys: thx, I'll try that.
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11:59 nine moritz: finally! Must have been some kernel bug or something. After going through the configuration and debugging for 2 hours, I just installed this week's updates, rebooted and everything works again.
12:01 AlexDaniel somebody did 12 days of Christmas in 335 characters XD
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12:02 AlexDaniel tyil: why no xpost to r/perl? I'd love to see more perl5 solutions :)
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12:11 titsuki_ bisectable: say "兆".unival; say 兆;
12:11 bisectable6 titsuki_, On both starting points (old=2015.12 new=a04c616) the exit code is 1 and the output is identical as well
12:11 bisectable6 titsuki_, Output on both points: «===SORRY!=== Error while compiling /tmp/ZEG46HarnL␤Undeclared routine:␤    兆 used at line 1␤␤»
12:12 nine m: say "really here"
12:12 camelia rakudo-moar a04c61647: OUTPUT: «really here␤»
12:12 titsuki_ bisectable: say "㊿".unival; say ㊿;
12:12 bisectable6 titsuki_, On both starting points (old=2015.12 new=a04c616) the exit code is 0 and the output is identical as well
12:12 bisectable6 titsuki_, Output on both points: «50␤50␤»
12:13 AlexDaniel titsuki_: :S interesting
12:14 titsuki_ AlexDaniel: What is the difference between 兆 and ㊿?
12:14 AlexDaniel m: say 𖭡
12:14 camelia rakudo-moar a04c61647: OUTPUT: «1000000000000␤»
12:14 AlexDaniel u: 兆㊿
12:14 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+5146 <CJK Ideograph-5146> [Lo] (兆)
12:14 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, U+32BF CIRCLED NUMBER FIFTY [No] (㊿)
12:15 AlexDaniel propdump: 兆㊿
12:15 unicodable6 AlexDaniel, https://gist.github.com/e7890be099dee89f4d4d2a5f82ad3e38
12:15 AlexDaniel titsuki_: one is Lo and another one is No
12:16 AlexDaniel titsuki_: so one is a letter and another one is a number. This matters because letters are valid identifiers, so it thinks that it's a sub name
12:16 AlexDaniel titsuki_: ok I changed it to 𖭡. Thanks
12:17 titsuki_ AlexDaniel: I see thanks!
12:19 AlexDaniel .tell samcv TIL, maybe you're interested to know this too. 兆 has a unival of 1000000000000 but you can't use it in the source code because its general category is Lo (so it thinks that it's an identifier)
12:19 yoleaux AlexDaniel: I'll pass your message to samcv.
12:23 tyil AlexDaniel: the bot autoposts perl 6 advent stuff to /perl, so I only post to /perl6
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12:26 geekosaur not sure that's something that's really addressable. does M get a numeric value of 1000? does א get a numeric value of 1?
12:26 geekosaur systems that reuse letters as numbers are problematic in general
12:27 geekosaur (granting that modern Hebrew uses digits to avoid the problem)
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12:39 AlexDaniel fwiw I'm not saying that it should be addressed :)
12:40 * sunnavy_ sunnavy
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12:45 AlexDaniel squashable6: next
12:45 squashable6 AlexDaniel, Next SQUASHathon in 12 days and ≈21 hours (2018-01-06 UTC-12⌁UTC+14). See https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Monthly-Bug-Squash-Day
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14:28 psychoslave Hi, I'm interesting with Perl6 "slang" facilities that I have heard of, but I don't find introducing documentation. I'm looking at this within a broader research on [programming language internationalization](https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Internationalisation_of_Programming_Languages) I just started. I would like to know if Perl6's slangs could be used for this purpose. Notably, I would like to know if this facility: 1. enable
14:28 psychoslave to modify even reseverved keywords 2. expose the same debugging/profiling features as the native Perl6 language, or if it operate a kind of transpiler work which won't enable to track the additional layer.
14:28 psychoslave Your feedback will be highly appreciated, thank you.
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14:42 timotimo psychoslave: yes, you can change even reserved keywords, though hardly anything in perl6 is really reserved in that sense
14:43 timotimo https://github.com/bduggan/mosdef - here's an example slang that allows you to use "lambda" or λ to declare anonymous subs
14:43 timotimo and "def" to declare methods
14:49 psychoslave thank you timotimo that's an excellent feedback for me
14:50 timotimo search "slang" in modules.perl6.org to find more; v5 is an extremely thorough slang, replacing basically all of perl6 with perl5, but it has bitrotted so you can't run it on a current rakudo
14:52 psychoslave on a side note, I found you nickname doubly [frightening](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/timo#Esperanto) ^^
14:53 timotimo yeah, i believe the original name would have been "timotheus", which means god-fearing
14:53 timotimo "the god-fearing one"
14:53 lizmat .oO( intimodating )
14:54 timotimo this isn't a timo dating community :P
14:56 psychoslave Otherwise, I'm interested with more technical details with how all that is architectured. Is the perl6 default syntax also a slang?
14:57 psychoslave From what I can infer from v5 being a slang, I guess one could possibly integrate any programming language as a slang of perl6, is that so?
14:58 timotimo basically
14:58 timotimo perl6 is parsed with a Grammar and an Actions class (plus the World that holds all definition-like things)
14:58 timotimo you make a slang by either replacing the grammar entirely or mixing in a role into the existing grammar
14:58 lizmat one of the exercises in the rakudo internals course, is an implementation of PHP  :-)
14:58 lizmat and people *have* worked on doing Ruby, afaik
14:58 timotimo you see, Grammar is really class-like, so you can derive from a grammar, and you can mix into a grammar
15:00 psychoslave Very interesting. Is Rakudo coded in C?
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15:01 timotimo no, we have a language called NQP which is "Not Quite Perl6" that we use to bootstrap rakudo
15:01 timotimo nqp already has full perl6 grammars built in
15:02 timotimo a lot of rakudo is written in NQP, but the "core setting", i.e. almost all built-in classes and subs (including operators), are written in perl6
15:02 psychoslave By the way, don't be shy on giving me many links, I will put them on the references of the research of language i18n :)
15:02 timotimo nqp runs on MoarVM, the JVM, and (work ongoing) JavaScript
15:02 psychoslave impressive
15:03 timotimo and MoarVM is written in C
15:13 psychoslave also, there is no "reserved keyword" timotimo, does it mean that `sub` might easily be used as an other keyword or as an identifier in in a slang?
15:14 timotimo m: my \sub = 1; say sub
15:14 camelia rakudo-moar 729caa8f1: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Missing block␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3my \sub = 1; say sub7⏏5<EOL>␤    expecting any of:␤        new name to be defined␤»
15:14 psychoslave I mean, it deals collision with clean namespaced grammar ?
15:14 timotimo okay, it does not like that at least
15:15 lizmat m: my \if = 1; say if  # other cases do work
15:15 camelia rakudo-moar 729caa8f1: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unsupported use of bare "say"; in Perl 6 please use .say if you meant to call it as a method on $_, or use an explicit invocant or argument, or use &say to refer to the function as a noun␤at <tmp>:1…»
15:15 lizmat weird, that works locally ?
15:16 lizmat m: my \if = 1; say if
15:16 camelia rakudo-moar 729caa8f1: OUTPUT: «1␤»
15:16 lizmat looks like the comments handling is interfering
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17:05 b2gills m: my \if = '\if'; m: sub if () { 'if(' ~ if ~ ')' }; say if();
17:05 camelia rakudo-moar ec0021bbd: OUTPUT: «if(\if)␤»
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17:07 lizmat .oO( that looks iffy )
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17:10 moritz nine: thanks for the fix!
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17:55 manchicken Neat! I have Fcntl making a module by simply appending Perl code to the end of a template.
18:09 manchicken OK, I'm confused...
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18:09 manchicken I have this:
18:09 manchicken `use Fcntl <SEEK_SET SEEK_CUR SEEK_END O_DIRECTORY>;`
18:10 manchicken It's complaining about a lack of `EXPORT` function, even though each of those symbols is defined as `constant CONST_NAME is export(:ALL) = VALUE;`
18:10 manchicken I'm clearly misunderstanding something in the documentation.
18:11 manchicken I thought the `is export` trait made it available to be explicitly imported one-at-a-time.
18:16 manchicken _sigh_ What's the point of having the ability to compile code snippets if everybody `:skip-test`s their snippets?
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22:06 manchicken Every time I read the C<Mu> docs, I learn something new.
22:27 manchicken `PackageName::.kv` giving me a full list of constants... my mind is blown.
22:28 manchicken Does anybody have time to look at my Fcntl implementation?
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22:48 manchicken Sweet. To Travis with the module.
22:52 manchicken Has anybody played with nativecall modules in Travis?
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23:11 comborico1611 Hey, anyone here an Emacs user?
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23:17 AlexDaniel comborico1611: yes
23:17 yoleaux 16:14Z <tbrowder> AlexDaniel: i think i have all the pod config hash stuff ready for a PR (after a bit of tidying). i hope all the work i see on value arrays and typing doesn't interfere with it--we'll see--i don't think it will. i have tested all the stuff as it shows currently in the docs (including lists and hashes).
23:18 comborico1611 Do you use standard cursor moving keyboard bindings?
23:20 AlexDaniel comborico1611: hmm… I guess so
23:20 comborico1611 Ctrl: P, N, F B
23:20 AlexDaniel ah these, no.
23:21 comborico1611 I'm just wondering of the merits of that.  Seems like it's more intuitive to use a video game setup that mimics the arrow keys
23:21 comborico1611 Do you use arrow keys or custom?
23:21 AlexDaniel I have a custom keyboard layout where I have arrow keys on altgr+ESDF
23:22 AlexDaniel well actually .oeu because I'm using dvorak
23:22 AlexDaniel and my altgr is on the spacebar so that's rather convenient
23:22 comborico1611 That's sounds like a nice setup!
23:23 comborico1611 Thanks for the input!
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23:23 travis-ci Doc build passed. Zoffix Znet 'Document `cmp-ok` can't take meta ops as Str
23:23 travis-ci https://travis-ci.org/perl6/doc/builds/320805206 https://github.com/perl6/doc/compare/modules-20171223
23:23 travis-ci left #perl6
23:23 AlexDaniel … and if anobody is wondering how do I write space then… I have space on 無変換
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23:48 buggable New CPAN upload: Sparky-Plugin-Notify-Telegram-0.0.1.tar.gz by SPIGELL https://cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/S/SP/SPIGELL/Perl6/Sparky-Plugin-Notify-Telegram-0.0.1.tar.gz
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