Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6book, 2009-10-07

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Time Nick Message
14:23 ilbot2 joined #perl6book
14:23 Topic for #perl6bookis now brainstorming lists: http://gist.github.com/203173 http://paste.lisp.org/display/88288
14:23 masak I think public logs would be a boon.
14:23 moritz_ here they are, at the usual location.
14:24 * masak hugs ilbot2
14:25 hugme joined #perl6book
14:25 moritz_ better :-)
14:25 masak hugme: hug ilbot2
14:25 * hugme hugs ilbot2
14:40 pmichaud joined #perl6book
15:07 [particle] joined #perl6book
15:36 FOAD joined #perl6book
16:09 mberends joined #perl6book
17:50 chromatic joined #perl6book
17:51 moritz_ wow, we have attracted quite a crowd so far ;-)
17:52 PerlJam book people and bots
17:52 moritz_ just two bots
17:54 * masak is a bot
17:54 moritz_ not bot enough to get a /voice ;-)
17:55 masak p'haps not :)
17:55 diakopter joined #perl6book
17:56 parduncia joined #perl6book
17:56 TimToady joined #perl6book
17:58 * diakopter is new here
17:58 PerlJam we're all new here :)
17:58 masak :)
17:58 mberends here is new too :)
17:58 masak mberends: I was going to type that! :)
17:59 * masak re-reads the script
17:59 masak it says in here that we're supposed to have a gathering of some kind in a minute or so.
18:00 masak and that it'll be fun and exciting!
18:00 TimToady what will we say?
18:00 diakopter that!
18:00 moritz_ if we knew that, we wouldn't be here
18:00 moritz_ anyway, let's get started
18:00 masak guys, you're freaking me out! stop saying everything that's in here!
18:01 moritz_ did jnthn want to come?
18:01 masak yes, but I don't know if he's un-busy yet.
18:01 PerlJam don't let jnthn in here!  It'll distract him from implementing stuff :)
18:01 jnthn joined #perl6book
18:02 last joined #perl6book
18:02 moritz_ great
18:02 moritz_ so
18:02 masak meeting.
18:02 moritz_ we want a Perl 6 book
18:02 masak to the point where we're willing to write it.
18:02 moritz_ we want it to be done by the time we release rakudo *, at least roughly
18:02 masak and we have a few loose ideas already.
18:02 moritz_ masak and I have gathered some brainstorming notices, see /topiic
18:03 moritz_ (those were gathered independently)
18:03 masak ooh, moritz_++
18:03 moritz_ also, this channel is publicly logged at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6book/today
18:03 mberends "Six Chapters" is really catchy!
18:04 PerlJam all we need is another 6 from somewhere and we've got the number of the beast
18:04 diakopter start with the 6th edition? Volume 6?
18:05 PerlJam bad company had an album entitled 10 from 6,  we could do 6 from 10 :)
18:05 masak "Six Ways To Perl 6"
18:05 moritz_ how do we want to proceed? got through the list of proposals, discuss them along the way?
18:05 TimToady I've decided we should rename Perl 6 to Perl 7 since it's really a different language from Perl 5
18:05 TimToady :)
18:06 PerlJam How much should the book be about Perl 6 vs. how much should it be about Rakudo?
18:06 masak the scary thing is that I didn't know whether TimToady meant it or not.
18:06 moritz_ PerlJam: it should be about the part of Perl 6 that rakudo implements by then
18:06 masak PerlJam: I figger Rakudo is the medium, but Perl 6 is the focus.
18:06 moritz_ right.
18:06 jnthn Agree.
18:06 PerlJam But what to do about the bits that rakudo *doesn't* implement?
18:06 jnthn It's about the subset of Perl 6 that Rakudo * happens to support.
18:06 PerlJam Just don't mention them?
18:06 PerlJam or lots of sidebars?
18:07 moritz_ PerlJam: there's always room for appendices ;-)
18:07 masak PerlJam: mention them (a la sidebar/footnote) if it's deemed worthwhile.
18:07 chromatic That depends on how practical the book should be.
18:07 PerlJam chromatic: ueber practical would be my betn
18:07 PerlJam s/betn/bent/
18:07 mberends the readers want runnable code as well as explanations
18:07 jnthn I'd hope Rakudo * will be at the point where we can write a book describing a bunch of features that work together, without having to constanting note "but don't do X"
18:07 moritz_ well, I made the experience that NYI features are very much subject to change
18:07 PerlJam jnthn: indeed
18:08 jnthn *constantly
18:08 moritz_ so if we write about macros without having them implemented, 80% will turn out not to work by the time they are implemented
18:08 masak as far as I'm concerned, there's only one decision of import to be made today. (others might disagree, of course): what should the first chapter be about?
18:08 jnthn Right.
18:08 chromatic Write the first chapter last.
18:08 pmichaud as an overall guideline, I expect the number of "very useful but nyi" things in Rakudo to be dramatically smaller than today
18:08 PerlJam also ... is the book meant to be publishable in the O'Reilly sense or just as a continual work in progress?
18:08 masak well, the chapter we're to write first, then.
18:09 moritz_ PerlJam: both ;-)
18:09 pmichaud PerlJam: I'd aim for publishable work
18:09 jnthn I think we need to step back from that a bit first and ponder how the book may be organized.
18:09 pmichaud but also work in progress
18:09 moritz_ what jnthn said
18:09 masak jnthn: nod.
18:09 chromatic Assume you have a publisher willing to make yearly revisions.  Possibly bi-annual.
18:09 jnthn Will we have a chapter that focuses on OO, for example? One on subs/sigs? One on basic constructs?
18:10 jnthn Because if we're in a multi-author environment, there may not be a "chapter to write first".
18:10 pmichaud "a book that allows a junior programmer to learn a useful subset of Perl 6"
18:10 masak chromatic: bi-annual = half-yearly or with two-year gaps?
18:10 mberends assume the reader is not a beginner, so go straight for classes and objects first
18:10 pmichaud I wouldn't assume the reader is P5, though
18:10 chromatic half yearly
18:10 jnthn It may be that different people take on being the "leader" (for want of a better word) for a particular chapter.
18:11 masak jnthn: yes, I had that thought as well.
18:11 moritz_ mberends: I disagree. We shouldn't assume perl knowledge, so we should explain some lexical conventions, sigiled variables etc. first
18:11 PerlJam jnthn: collaboration is as collaboration does :)
18:11 masak jnthn: might be good to pick some chapters to captain already.
18:11 masak moritz_, mberends: I think we need to both assume and not assume Perl knowledge at the same time.
18:11 jnthn PerlJam: Oh, I'd very much want to encourage everyone involved in the effort to feel free to review / edit / hack on any chapter,.
18:11 colomon joined #perl6book
18:12 moritz_ let's try to come up with a minimal set of features we want to cover, shall we?
18:12 pmichaud +1
18:12 masak aye.
18:12 moritz_ I want:
18:12 moritz_ lexical conventions, variables, scoping, basic syntax
18:12 moritz_ subroutines, signatures
18:13 moritz_ OO, types
18:13 moritz_ grammars
18:13 TimToady might be easier to list what you want to leave out :)
18:13 jnthn multi-dispatch probably fits in amongst the above too.
18:13 PerlJam moritz_: are these particularly ordered or just thought-first order?
18:13 moritz_ PerlJam: thought-first
18:13 moritz_ aye, multi dispatch
18:13 moritz_ but for example my first line can be covered rather quickly
18:14 moritz_ every sane programmer knows block scoping, to some extend
18:14 pmichaud .oO( Is Perl 6 suitable for sane programmers...? )
18:14 diakopter Implementing Your Own Capture
18:14 PerlJam the first chapter we should write should be the preface that explains the audience for the book and gives a general lay-of-the-land :)
18:15 masak for some reason, I've come to think of the book as being similar in structure to the Exigeses, in that it starts with a whole example script, and elucidates wrt that example.
18:15 moritz_ masak: agreed
18:15 masak now, that might or might not be a good i... ok :)
18:15 moritz_ luckily that doesn't conflict with what I wrote so far ;-)
18:15 chromatic What's the goal of the book?
18:16 TimToady don't ask good questions!!!
18:16 moritz_ chromatic: enable programmers to get started with (and a bit deeper into) Perl 6 (first rough vision statement)
18:16 masak chromatic: to show Perl 6 to people in a way that makes them say "well, ok, I want this. now."
18:16 chromatic What should they be able to do after reading the book?
18:16 PerlJam given rakudo and the book, a intermediate programmer should be able to ...
18:17 pmichaud junior programmer
18:17 mberends I'd like it to complement the Rakudo Star release, acting as its introductory tutorial
18:17 moritz_ chromatic: answer the beginners question on perlmonks with runniing Perl 6 code
18:17 moritz_ and a bit more, hopefully
18:17 moritz_ (if others disagree, please step forward)
18:18 PerlJam silence is assent
18:18 * diakopter watches everyone else take a step back
18:18 chromatic What's its relationship to Rakduo *?  (See also mberends's question.)
18:18 * TimToady reserves the right do disagree later by writing a different book :)
18:18 moritz_ what mberends said. For some value of "introductory".
18:18 TimToady *to
18:18 PerlJam TimToady: please do! :)
18:19 moritz_ TimToady: no, henceforwards you're forbidden to write any Perl 6 related book! ;-)
18:19 pmichaud I want the book to complement the release in the sense that a software product really wants to have supporting documentation
18:19 pmichaud so that when someone says "okay, how do I use this", we can say "here's a book"  :)
18:19 colomon Is the primary focus to be the teaching or the examples?
18:19 masak colomon: what's the difference?
18:20 moritz_ colomon: teaching by examples and explanation
18:20 chromatic Is it a tutorial or a reference?
18:20 moritz_ it's really NOT a reference
18:20 colomon For instance, would you go for the best implementation of the example, or the one that covered the topics you wanted to teach in a chapter?
18:20 masak I hope to make u4x the reference for April.
18:21 colomon (I guess in my mind I had been picturing it being "This is why Perl 6 is cool" as much as "here is how you learn Perl 6".)
18:21 mberends colomon: cover the topics
18:21 moritz_ colomon: we'd want to pick an example which is the best implementation of that problem and shows the topics we want to cover
18:21 moritz_ which is why it will be very hard to chose a good example
18:21 pmichaud I have trouble with "best implementation", fwiw :)
18:21 mberends +1
18:21 pmichaud tmtowtdi
18:21 moritz_ pmichaud: s/best/a very good/
18:21 colomon pmichaud: for sure.
18:21 mberends the perl5 perlfaq docs are impressive for breadth and depth, it would be great to be able to answer even half of those questions for Perl 6. eg How do I...?
18:22 chromatic That sounds more like a recipe book, mberends.
18:22 masak Cookbook-like.
18:22 moritz_ I think that's a different book
18:22 PerlJam Also many of the perlfaq answers are: look at such-and-such module on CPAN
18:22 PerlJam definitely a different book
18:22 moritz_ I want our readers to be able to come up with most of the answers themselves
18:22 mberends ok, ok :)
18:22 jnthn (good examples) To me I think it's like, "does this feel like a natural way to solve the problem in Perl 6?"
18:23 PerlJam so, getting them used to the Perl 6 "culture" or "style" or "vibe"
18:23 moritz_ jnthn: that's certainly an important criterion, yes
18:23 jnthn That is, the example may not be the only way, but it doesn't feel like it was concoted either.
18:24 moritz_ well, for sure we'll try to write idiomatic code
18:24 chromatic Let's try a different approach to this question.
18:24 masak if there are several ways, one could mention the other ways, and point out pros and cons.
18:24 pmichaud I have a different tack to offer
18:24 chromatic diakopter suggested "What is this book *not*?"
18:24 pmichaud we know that we want to cover some fairly advanced stuff
18:24 pmichaud grammars, multimethod dispatch, object system
18:24 moritz_ it will be not a reference
18:25 pmichaud perhaps we should come up with those examples first
18:25 masak aye.
18:25 moritz_ pmichaud: those are the hardest part of the whole book
18:25 pmichaud then, once we have them, we write the parts that "you need to know to get to those examples"
18:25 mberends masak: the long outstanding code review of Druid could be a chapter about games, structure, good practices
18:26 moritz_ back to the question of what it's not...
18:26 moritz_ I fear it can't be too comprehensive (missing time)
18:26 masak mberends: I'd love to see a game in the book. probably not Druid, though.
18:26 colomon not a cookbook (even thought cookbooks are awesome)
18:26 moritz_ right
18:26 masak mberends: it's too weird a game, and that would detract from the topic. :)
18:27 PerlJam but is it tutorial in nature?
18:27 chromatic Not a comprehensive reference.
18:27 PerlJam Not *a* tutorial but a series of them.
18:27 masak six tutorials.
18:27 moritz_ I don't want to focus on that number too soon
18:27 masak possibly with dependencies, as pmichaud mentioned.
18:27 masak $N tutorials.
18:27 diakopter other options might be 'getting started with perl 6', 'the complete perl 6 reference', 'learn to program by learning perl 6 on rakudo *', 'learn rakudo * perl 6'
18:27 moritz_ I like the idea, but I think it's a fairly limiting restrictions
18:28 pmichaud in some sense I want us to be able to show the power and expressiveness of the language
18:28 pmichaud (1)  "Wow, you can do that?"
18:28 moritz_ +1
18:28 pmichaud (2)  "Oh, that's so easy!"
18:28 moritz_ +1
18:28 pmichaud an obvious "Wow, you can do that"  is grammars and regexes
18:28 moritz_ sure
18:28 PerlJam pmichaud: the slide you have with the deck of cards example is shiny in both of those ways
18:28 colomon PerlJam++
18:29 pmichaud pj:  yes, it is
18:29 pmichaud I've been meaning to write that up as an article
18:29 pmichaud I was thinking of writing it up for TPJ, but it could go here instead
18:29 diakopter 'what's new in perl 6'  'what's cool about perl 6'
18:29 pmichaud *TPR
18:29 mberends cool solutions to generally known challenges, where P6 out-golfs the rest
18:30 PerlJam hmm
18:30 PerlJam not golf
18:30 TimToady mberends: that sounds more wiki-ish
18:30 diakopter 'using perl 6 gives you wings'
18:30 pmichaud anyway, so I'm thinking that we focus on a few "Wow you can do that" sorts of examples for the "later" chapters, and then start filling in details of whatyou need to know in the earlier chapters
18:30 pmichaud so, come up with good examples to demo regexes and grammars
18:30 pmichaud good examples for objects and methods and multidispatch
18:31 pmichaud and types
18:31 pmichaud and I think if we just have those items, that pretty much dictates the rest of the first edition
18:31 diakopter 'perl 6 overview (and coolness!)'
18:31 moritz_ in some sense I like the JSON::Tiny module as an example (I don't imply we'll use it, though). Here's why:
18:31 moritz_ it solves a problem completely
18:31 moritz_ in a few lines really, they fit into a book easily
18:32 moritz_ it's a real-world problem
18:32 moritz_ it uses some shiny Perl 6 features
18:32 masak moritz_: I like the idea, or that class of ideas.
18:32 pmichaud +1
18:32 moritz_ (grammars, action methods, multi dispatch for creating the JSON)
18:32 masak we should definitely have something like that.
18:32 moritz_ and the code is easy to understand
18:32 PerlJam sounds good to me.
18:32 moritz_ it doesn't show off all the shiny grammar features, but it's still nice
18:32 masak I think of that as our "language/grammar/parsing" example.
18:32 chromatic Is this "Overview of Perl 6 with Rakudo Star"?
18:33 pmichaud "Overview" might be too broad
18:33 diakopter "Skim"
18:33 moritz_ skim plus tutorial, maybe
18:33 PerlJam The title may come later once we're written more of the book.
18:33 moritz_ aye
18:34 PerlJam btw, where is the book to live ?  github?
18:34 moritz_ I don't think chromatic meant the title, though
18:34 diakopter the title connotes much about the audience and structure
18:34 moritz_ more the idea
18:34 pmichaud well, without worrying about title, we still want to have a coherent vision
18:34 moritz_ github: +1
18:34 pmichaud perl6 repo?
18:34 pmichaud er, perl6 account?
18:34 masak aye.
18:34 moritz_ wfm
18:34 PerlJam yes
18:35 pmichaud let me know what it's to be called and I'll create the repo :)
18:35 PerlJam who is the "I" that strongly prefers LaTeX?
18:35 moritz_ let's think a bit more about the vision and "what it's not" in private, and focus on technical things
18:35 moritz_ PerlJam: that's masak
18:35 PerlJam pmichaud: perl6-book  :)
18:35 moritz_ pmichaud: just call it "book" for now
18:35 diakopter "tree-killer"
18:35 moritz_ or perl6-book, fine by me too
18:35 moritz_ what about license?
18:36 pmichaud what license did the Parrot+PIR book use?
18:36 moritz_ in the end I'd love to see it under a very permissive license, but I don't know if that's the right thing to start with
18:36 PerlJam masak: do you edit it by hand or do you have some fancy editor that aids?  (I haven't looked at LaTeX in years)
18:36 moritz_ I have no idea how license affects publishing
18:36 moritz_ chromatic: can you give us some insight on that? are there pitfalls?
18:37 masak PerlJam: I usually write LaTeX by hand. it's one of the nicest markups out there, when it comes to writing by hand.
18:37 moritz_ that's another thing - I love latex, but it's not so well suited for a mixture of normal text and code
18:37 chromatic We didn't mind a permissive license on the PIR book, nor its presence in the Parrot repository.
18:37 chromatic Profits go to PaFo on that.
18:37 masak PerlJam: but I also automate/script a lot of things for book generation.
18:38 masak moritz_: I beg to differ.
18:38 PerlJam moritz_: so, what would you prefer?
18:38 chromatic PseudoPOD worked out well for the PIR book.
18:38 moritz_ for normal text + code I really prefer POD
18:38 PerlJam moritz_: me too
18:38 masak I wouldn't mind POD.
18:38 moritz_ \verb|$foo| is just too clumsy, compared to C<$foo>
18:38 pmichaud heh
18:38 pmichaud I wonder if a pod formatter could be an example in the book :)
18:39 chromatic My $company toolchain is happy with PseudoPOD -> LaTeX -> PDF -> print.
18:39 moritz_ (oh, and I don't want a single 'foo' or 'bar' in the book - OK?)
18:39 PerlJam We could even have an example perl 6 program that parses the POD and generates LaTeX or something :)
18:39 masak moritz_: :)
18:39 masak moritz_: what about 'Austria"?
18:39 mberends pmichaud: that's how I got involved in Perl 6
18:39 moritz_ and neither foobar, baz and Quox
18:39 moritz_ masak: Austria is much better
18:39 pmichaud if you don't allow bars, that might exclude jnthn++ .
18:39 pmichaud :)
18:40 masak *lol*
18:40 moritz_ well, *that* kind of bar is fine ;-)
18:40 pmichaud although I guess he would say "pub" :)
18:40 moritz_ so - license == AL2 ?
18:40 chromatic I'm more comfortable with a CC license.
18:40 PerlJam +1 CC
18:40 pmichaud I'd go with CC, I think
18:41 chromatic I wear my publisher hat for this.
18:41 moritz_ CC wfm
18:41 masak CC is nice.
18:41 chromatic attribution, noncommercial, share alike
18:41 chromatic ?
18:41 pmichaud wfm
18:42 pmichaud "book" or "perl6book" for the repo?
18:42 moritz_ and "commercial" is allowed for the authors?
18:42 masak why noncommercial?
18:42 masak pmichaud: 'book'
18:42 masak less to type. :)
18:42 jnthn CC fine for me too
18:42 PerlJam masak++ ever practical  :)
18:42 diakopter will particular individuals be assigned 'ownership' of certain areas?  (someone to own the table of contents/chapter organization, someone to own each chapter)
18:43 PerlJam diakopter: do you mean ownership as in responsibility or more like copyright?
18:43 jnthn I'd say "stewardship" more than "ownership".
18:43 PerlJam jnthn++ execllent word
18:43 chromatic Commercial is allowed for the authors.
18:43 diakopter own, as in 'responsible for', yeah
18:43 masak diakopter: I think that's inevitable in some sense. but it'd be nice to encourage a policy of 'anyone can improve anything'.
18:43 moritz_ +1
18:43 PerlJam masak: I think it's going to be hard to stop some people from improving everything ;)
18:44 diakopter but also, 'point of communication for'
18:44 pmichaud diakopter: we do that already in the codebase; it somewhat falls out naturally I think
18:44 masak diakopter: as long as that doesn't block people.
18:44 pmichaud i.e.,  moritz tends to be the test captain.  jnthn++ is the oo/signature/multidispatch person.
18:45 pmichaud we don't have formal assignment, we just know people's general areas of responsibility
18:45 pmichaud (moritz++, btw, didn't mean to imply non-karma)
18:45 moritz_ :-)
18:46 pmichaud perl6/book.git now available
18:46 [particle] you might consider calling it starbook, if there are to be other books on rakudo under the rakudo github account
18:46 moritz_ every mention of my name increases my karm^Wego
18:46 [particle] wait, is this a perl 6 book, or a rakudo star book?
18:46 PerlJam perl 6
18:46 moritz_ both.
18:46 * [particle] arrives from scrollbackland, a little confused
18:46 moritz_ in some sense
18:46 diakopter whichever it is, it needs to be clear in the title
18:46 masak Perl 6 using Rakudo Star.
18:46 PerlJam it's a perl 6 book with an eye towards practicality
18:46 colomon It's a perl 6 book, but it should work with Rakudo Star.
18:47 jnthn [particle]: I'm kinda seeing it as a book about the subset of Perl 6 that you can run on Rakudo *.
18:47 [particle] it needs an installation chapter
18:47 masak "Become a Perl 6 Star!" :)
18:47 PerlJam (i.e., you have to be able to run the code somewhere)
18:47 [particle] how to use proto, etc
18:47 pmichaud how about "STARting with Perl 6"?  :-P
18:47 masak would be nice to have the userakudo web page online at that point...
18:47 moritz_ enough starshedding
18:47 * chromatic agrees with jnthn.
18:47 mberends diakopter: as chromatic++ said, write chapter 1 last. And then write the title last after that ;)
18:47 pmichaud I think the focus is more Perl 6 than Rakudo Star
18:47 PerlJam pmichaud: that's not a half-bad title startshedding aside
18:48 PerlJam s/rts/rs/
18:48 pmichaud Rakudo Star is just a stage we'll be going through.
18:48 [particle] ok, so i really think 'book' is too generic a name for the repo
18:48 moritz_ to late
18:48 pmichaud we can rename it later
18:48 pmichaud renaming is easy on github
18:48 [particle] yep
18:48 moritz_ the repo is just part of an URI
18:48 diakopter mberends: that would be nice, but *something* has to constrain the direction (title or chapter title/semantic fields, or something)
18:48 moritz_ s/repo/repo name/
18:48 [particle] so the codename for the book is 'book' :)
18:49 moritz_ right, because it's a book.
18:49 masak I agree that we still have too few constraints.
18:49 moritz_ what kinds of constraints would you like to add?
18:49 masak I don't know, something that points the way forward.
18:49 PerlJam how about we get an outline going and we can iteratively refine it until it turns into chapters of text.
18:49 TimToady it should not turn into a Camel designed by a Committee
18:49 mberends let's make random submissions into the repo for a week or so, and then meet again
18:50 masak specifically, I'd like it to be clear what to do until the next monthly release.
18:50 pmichaud points the way forward:  first, let's figure out our "release schedule"
18:50 masak +1
18:50 pmichaud i.e., let's pick dates and deadlines now
18:50 PerlJam I volunteer to start a preface btw
18:50 masak PerlJam: the one that's supposed to be written last? :)
18:51 moritz_ arbitrary picking: one day after each rakudo release
18:51 PerlJam the preface it's first, it's zeroth
18:51 pmichaud some scheduling background:  Rakudo #28 will be released on April 22, 2010
18:51 diakopter some words about an even-somewhat-consistent tone: should it be whimsical, serious/professional but with sublime puns, matter-of-fact, acting-ultra-pragmatic, or else
18:51 pmichaud Rakudo Star will therefore be sometime between the 22nd and the 30th
18:51 moritz_ that means we won't have a full chapter up to the first release date, but that's fine IMHO
18:51 masak moritz_: that gives us 16 days until the next release. yes, that might be enough.
18:52 pmichaud I expect that we will do some pre-releases of Rakudo Star in early 2010
18:52 pmichaud i.e., to test things out and see how it's hanging together
18:52 moritz_ any objections to "1 day after the monthly rakudo releases"?
18:52 masak diakopter: I also thought of asking that question. I don't think it's something that can be decided beforehand.
18:53 pmichaud I sometimes like 2 days, but 1 works better I think
18:53 PerlJam moritz_: wfm
18:53 pmichaud i.e., Friday is better than Saturday
18:53 masak diakopter: I would love for it to be seriously whimsical, but the only way to find out is to write it.
18:53 diakopter masak: an even more basic question is whether it should have a bunch a different tones, or an even somewhat consistent one.
18:53 pmichaud I'll commit to write a draft of my playing cards example and put it in the book repo.  it's okay if it doesn't make it into the final cut, but it might give us a place to start
18:54 moritz_ pmichaud: great
18:54 masak aye, releases for the book aren't as time-consuming as those for Rakudo. the test suite for the book will not be as big. :)
18:54 PerlJam diakopter: Our fearless editor can help with that  :)
18:54 colomon pmichaud: seems like the start of a chapter?
18:54 masak diakopter: a somewhat consistent tone, at the very least.
18:54 diakopter as in, "haha; whee; isn't this fun?" or "JFDI; here's how"
18:54 pmichaud colomon: I just want to see it published.  I think it might be useful for the book, if only to give people something to react against
18:55 pmichaud where "published" means "available for others to read", not necessarily in book format
18:55 PerlJam pmichaud: it's a good small "killer app" kind of thing.
18:55 pmichaud PerlJam: exactly
18:55 moritz_ it might be too killer app, but that's fine for now
18:55 pmichaud right
18:55 moritz_ so, +1 to submitting it
18:55 pmichaud if it's too killer app, that's okay
18:55 pmichaud it's worth writing in its own right
18:56 pmichaud I'd like to see jnthn's example from NPW written up also, fwiw :)
18:56 masak I'll commit to setting up a Makefile that renders the book in PDF form or similar. so that there's something palpable to comment on.
18:56 pmichaud the one that did the sql stuff using multi dispatch, junctions, etc.
18:56 pmichaud it might also be "too killer app", but it was a great example
18:56 * masak doesn't remember that one
18:56 moritz_ I volunteer to write some summary of what we agreed on (and what not) and put it somewhere in meta/ in the repo
18:57 pmichaud excellent
18:57 diakopter here's a (different) idea:  "Implementing Perl 6 - Hop in; the water's great!"
18:57 masak moritz_: please, no meta/ dirs :)
18:57 jnthn pmichaud: Ooh, that good be an idea.
18:57 pmichaud and, we can potentially always have chapters or useful things in the repo that don't make it into the printed copy :)
18:57 chromatic I have tools for PseudoPOD that make nice LaTeX and some nice stylesheets.
18:57 masak moritz_: plans/ is fine.
18:57 jnthn pmichaud: The paper/scissor/stone multi-dispatch was another one I was pondering.
18:57 moritz_ masak: plans/ is fine
18:57 PerlJam jnthn++
18:57 masak chromatic: great, I'm interested in those.
18:57 jnthn my Can of Beer $staropramen # should not make it in though ;-)
18:57 PerlJam chromatic: put them in the repo
18:58 pmichaud I liked the sql example because it had some practical use
18:58 PerlJam (or otherwise share)
18:58 moritz_ jnthn: yes, that can be go in, but I don't know if it needs to be a leading example for one chapter
18:58 moritz_ s:1st/be /
18:58 pmichaud paper/scissor/stone was already published online somewhere, I think :)
18:58 moritz_ oh, and I'll add perl6/book to hugme
18:58 jnthn I've used it at many talks too.
18:58 moritz_ pmichaud: so what? ;-)
18:58 pmichaud just saying we might be able to steal words instead of rewriting them :)
19:00 moritz_ so
19:00 moritz_ we have a way forward
19:00 moritz_ shall we meet again in a week, same time, same "place"?
19:00 jnthn Works for me.
19:00 PerlJam yes
19:00 mberends ok
19:00 chromatic wfm
19:00 pmichaud just to confirm, we plan to release something on Oct 23 ?
19:01 moritz_ pmichaud: yes
19:01 pmichaud okay
19:01 PerlJam what does "release" mean exactly?
19:01 pmichaud is it possible that we're overloading that week with too many release announcements?
19:01 moritz_ PerlJam: it means we give the public something to talk about ;-)
19:01 pmichaud parrot, rakudo, book ?
19:01 moritz_ pmichaud: good point
19:01 PerlJam pmichaud: I don't think so.
19:01 masak make one release announcement.
19:01 pmichaud for me, iwbni "release" means "we have a pdf/tarball/something that represents that release of the book"
19:01 jnthn We don't need to make a huge thing of it.
19:01 PerlJam moritz_: I guess I'm asking how?
19:02 pmichaud well, we know there will be parrot and rakudo announcements
19:02 jnthn Just a point to take stock of what we've achieved.
19:02 [particle] so there'll be a perl 5 release, a parrot release, a rakudo release, and a perl6book release in the same week?
19:02 PerlJam pmichaud: where does this thing live?  Just in the repo for now?
19:02 jnthn [particle]: yeah but Perl is still dead
19:02 jnthn ;-)
19:02 pmichaud PerlJam: I'd like to see us have tools that "make release" for the book
19:02 pmichaud ideally, they'd package things up into a PDF
19:02 pmichaud and perhaps some other files
19:02 [particle] it's dead three weeks every month, at least :P
19:02 pmichaud and build a tarball
19:02 pmichaud that we then put the tarball and/or PDF into the "Downloads" section of GitHub
19:03 pmichaud and that's our "release"
19:03 masak +1
19:03 pmichaud same as what we do for Rakudo
19:03 mberends book release = polished html pdf and other formats
19:03 masak btw, found the SQL example. that's just EVIL. :) jnthn++
19:03 moritz_ masak: URL?
19:03 masak http://jnthn.net/papers/2009-npw-perl6express-slides.pdf
19:03 pmichaud masak: but worth writing up, yes?
19:03 masak pmichaud: very possibly.
19:04 masak moritz_: the slide with a >>~~<< in it.
19:04 jnthn I'd want to explore it a bit more first.
19:04 pmichaud imo, good examples deserve blog postings, at the least.
19:04 pmichaud even if they're "That's totally EVIL" examples
19:04 jnthn It's not *that* evil. :-P
19:04 chromatic Building PDF from LaTeX requires some other tools installed.
19:04 chromatic Building LaTeX from PseudoPOD requires some Perl 5 tools installed too.
19:05 chromatic Just a note, not a warning.
19:05 moritz_ wfm
19:05 pmichaud I don't mind if we say that certain tools (not in the repo) have to be present in order to cut a release
19:05 masak that's to be expected.
19:05 masak a general interested reader won't need those tools anyway.
19:05 pmichaud instead of /plan, I'd suggest docs/, and have a release-guide.pod
19:05 chromatic I can make a list of those tools; I need to do that for the Modern Perl book anyway.
19:05 PerlJam chromatic: please do.
19:05 moritz_ chromatic: great
19:05 pmichaud same as our other projects
19:05 masak +1
19:06 moritz_ so
19:07 moritz_ did we reach a common point on the release date?
19:07 chromatic April 22, 2010?
19:07 moritz_ hugme: add moritz to book
19:07 * hugme hugs moritz. Welcome to book!
19:07 moritz_ chromatic: I meant regular releases
19:07 moritz_ hugme: add masak to book
19:07 * hugme hugs masak. Welcome to book!
19:07 masak moritz_: one-day-after-Rakudo sounds good to me.
19:07 [particle] it's a good start.
19:07 pmichaud let's start with that, we can always change it if it doesn't work out
19:08 moritz_ ok
19:08 moritz_ anything else we need to discuss before we adjurn this meeting?
19:08 pmichaud adjourn +1
19:08 pmichaud anyone going to blog this?  ;-)
19:08 moritz_ pmichaud: that's going to be the first release announcement
19:08 moritz_ I can write that up
19:09 pmichaud +1
19:09 PerlJam pmichaud: good idea.  I've been slacking for ironperl :)
19:09 moritz_ hugme: add jnthn to book
19:09 * hugme hugs jnthn. Welcome to book!
19:09 chromatic Note that my company will need a week and a half to get printed books for the April release.
19:09 jnthn adjorn +1 # my dinner just finished cooking
19:09 moritz_ chromatic: noted
19:10 pmichaud I think we should target having something semi-final for March
19:10 chromatic March would be good.
19:10 pmichaud April is Rakudo *'s release, but I'd like to see everything mostly done by March
19:11 pmichaud (my internal planning deadlines are actually february for many things)
19:11 moritz_ I'll stay here in the channel if we need larger discussions related to the book
19:11 pmichaud channels are cheap :)
19:11 moritz_ apart from that: meeting adjourned. have a great time everyone
19:11 masak moritz_++
19:12 pmichaud (it would be good for someone to update the README file in the book repo)
19:12 moritz_ ok
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