Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6book, 2010-06-17

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Time Nick Message
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05:10 PerlJam Anyone else notice that the =begin screen sections aren't showing up in the PDF version of the book?
05:56 dalek book: 61514b0 | duff++ | src/r (2 files):
05:56 dalek book: [regex] lexicalize free-standing regex
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12:05 lucs PerlJam: They appear to show up in the latest version.
12:06 lucs Which page seems to be lacking for example?
12:32 lucs (The latest version of the latex-tweaking branch, that is.)
13:29 PerlJam ah, so they do.
13:31 lucs Ok.
16:04 lucs PerlJam: Can you try to build the 'page-dimensions' branch I just checked in?
16:04 lucs I'd like your opinion on those dimensions.
16:04 lucs The branch also handles a4/letter better.
16:24 PerlJam er, how do you specify a4 v. letter?  I did  "SIZE=letter make" and I get a book.letter.pdf, but it seems to be the same dimensions as book.a4.pdf
16:24 PerlJam and they both appear to be letter sized
16:26 PerlJam btw, some of the program listings seem to have no vertical whitespace immediately after them (like the first one in the basics chapter) while others seem to have a 1.5 lines of vertical whitespace immediately after them.
16:26 lucs Oh, the text should appear to be exactly the same, but it will be centered differently on the paper.
16:27 lucs Yeah, I saw that spacing problem, it should be fixable.
16:27 lucs The main difference for the page-dimensions branch is that the text is a lot narrower.
16:27 lucs Do you thionk that's better?
16:27 lucs think
16:27 * PerlJam looks again
16:28 PerlJam It's looks fine to me  :)
16:28 lucs I prefer it narrower too.
16:29 lucs Did you have trouble setting up your build environment? (I did, and I'm wondering whether the authors will too.)
16:31 PerlJam Not much trouble.  I needed to apt-get a few things (ubuntu) and I was off and running.
16:31 lucs Cool.
16:32 PerlJam (and I did need to google which things those were as the package names were not obvious from the error messages I got)
16:32 lucs Should we consult with all the authors before we commit all this latex tweaking to master?
16:33 PerlJam I'm the wrong person to ask :)
16:33 lucs Hey, you're one of the authors :)
16:33 PerlJam I generally commit anyway since it's easy enough to undo or change later.
16:33 PerlJam But I don't know what the feel is from the other authors
16:34 lucs I wouldn't want the authors to be stuck with something they can't build, unless they're ok with that.
16:36 PerlJam make it optional in the makefile and I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.
16:36 PerlJam "make tweaked" could take a different path from "make"
16:37 PerlJam document what's needed (of course)
16:37 lucs Actually, it's a lot more than tweaked if you think about it.
16:37 lucs Without these LaTeX modifications, the rendering is a bit awful.
16:38 lucs On the other hand, you're right, maybe there should be a "minimum" type version.
16:38 lucs So the authors could at least get an idea of what it looks like.
16:39 lucs I wonder if there should be a black&white version, for eventual printing...
16:43 PerlJam Every Tuesday there's a meeting of the Perl 6 minds on #phasers @1800 UTC  (I think. I'm always forgetting the time).  Most of the book authors are usually there.  You could show up and ask questions and get some feedback.
16:44 lucs Good idea, thanks.
16:44 lucs What's that channel usually for?
16:45 lucs Ok, I just checked its topic :)
16:47 PerlJam I guess it's at 1900UTC
16:47 lucs Okie doke.
16:48 lucs (With a bit of luck, I'll remember :-)
16:49 PerlJam or you could just hang out on #perl6 and ask the authors as they show up.  Often times we're all there simultaneously.
16:50 lucs You're right, it's not like if there were dozens of you :)
16:50 lucs Hmm... Maybe I should email 'em all.
16:50 PerlJam that'd work too
16:52 lucs Gotta go for now. TTYL.
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19:56 lucs pronik```: Hi.
20:17 pronik``` lucs: hi
20:18 lucs pronik: Please have a look at the page-dimensions branch (a narrower presentation).
20:18 lucs (And it fixes the a4/paper centering thing.)
20:21 pronik lucs: do you know where I can get a proper grammar for perl6 apart from STD.pm?
20:21 lucs Sorry, no :(
20:21 pronik moritz_: ping
20:22 moritz_ pronik: pong
20:22 lucs Until such a grammar is found, I suppose it'll make correct syntax highlighting hard, eh.
20:22 moritz_ perl6.vim is pretty decent
20:22 moritz_ http://github.com/petdance/vim-perl
20:24 pronik moritz_: see, my point is this: since perl6 is explicitely a specification, one could just snap that specification, wherever that is, and build something with it, like a lexer for pygments, so that the one perl6 book in existence actually looks good ;)
20:24 moritz_ pronik: well, STD.pm is part of the spec, and it runs
20:25 pronik and this specification (EBNF, anyone?) is nowhere to be found :(
20:25 moritz_ and it is as close to EBNF as you can get. EBNF itself isn't good enough to parse Perl 6
20:25 moritz_ if you can hook up external programs, getting a syntax hilighter based on STD.pm running is quite possible
20:26 moritz_ in fact, there's one on CPAN already, which emits HTML
20:26 pronik http://pygments.org/docs/lexerdevelopment/
20:26 pronik won't do with an external program :(
20:26 moritz_ :(
20:27 moritz_ so, what's wrong with what we currently have, except for some stray newlines?
20:27 pronik those are not newlines
20:27 moritz_ but?
20:27 pronik look into source, those are legitimate lines which are misparsed by the perl5 parser :(
20:28 pronik same for french quotes -- they even get highlighted as "parsing error"
20:28 moritz_ uh
20:28 pronik can be nicely seen in the operators chapter
20:28 pronik and since pygments is used in a freaking lot of different web application, it might be nice of nice to provide a perl6 lexer
20:29 pronik only one example: trac
20:29 pronik any perl6 projects would certainly appreciate it
20:29 moritz_ no doubt about that
20:30 pronik so how big are the chances that if we write a lexer now that we'd have to change large parts of it later?
20:31 moritz_ the main syntax has stayed rather stable during the last few years
20:31 moritz_ sometimes new quoting constructs get added, which freak out a parser that's not aware of them
20:31 moritz_ but all in all it's more the builtins that change, or some small parts (like signatures)
20:33 pronik looks like perl6.vim could be reused almost completely -- they are using regexps too, like pygments
20:34 moritz_ actually perl6.vim uses a "wrong" approach. A Perl 6 parser needs to be predictive, whereas perl6.vim isn't, but is full (very good) heuristics :-)
20:34 moritz_ but I don't know if pygment supports predictive parsing at all
20:48 pronik it depends, probably can be hacked to do anything
20:48 pronik is pugs any good for studying?
20:49 moritz_ if you like haskell + parsec, sure
20:49 moritz_ you can also study rakudo - after all it parses all of the examples
20:52 pronik I tend to forget that most part of rakudo is written in perl :)
20:55 moritz_ perl 6 even
20:55 moritz_ bootstrapping hilarity :-)
20:56 * moritz_ -> bed
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