Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #phasers, 2010-06-01

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:44 masak joined #phasers
12:44 mberends joined #phasers
12:45 colomon joined #phasers
12:46 colomon pre-report, as I intend to be touring a lighthouse during today's report.
12:46 colomon mostly vacationed this week
12:48 colomon merged in Prakash Kailasa's nested hyper patch, and went on to implement hash hypers.
12:48 colomon in the process, we broke 33,000 passing tests.
12:49 colomon just conferred with the #perl6 brain trust and decided to extend nested hypers to handle hashes as well.
12:49 colomon .eor
12:49 jnthn There's more than one way to read, "in the process, we broke 33,000 passing tests" ;-)
12:49 masak with high probability, I won't make it to tonight's meeting, so here's a pre-report of sorts:
12:49 masak * I've gotten rolling with my GSoC work. here's the report from week 1: http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40369 -- weekly blog reports are probably what I'll end up doing.
12:49 masak * correct Buf.decode behaviour is currently blocking on Parrot implementing some bytes->string mechanism.
12:49 masak * but it struck me that in the meantime, one possible workaround is to implement bytes->chars decoding in the PIR code of the Buf.decode method. may or may not be worth the trouble.
12:50 masak * if someone wants inspiration for what to hack on before Rakudo Star, the "Regressions" list in http://use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40371 contains good candidates.
12:50 masak .eor
12:53 moritz_ I'll miss the meeting too
12:54 moritz_ * with a kick-start from pmichaud++ I managed to get mostly sane Match object behaviour back
12:55 moritz_ * got two good submissions for the MAIN routine supporting thing... now I still don't know how to plug it into Rakudo. Plans and ideas are very welcome.
12:55 moritz_ * for the current challenge there's already one good-enough submission for Str.trans - will put that into rakudo in the next few days (or next week)
12:56 moritz_ * plan to get JSON::Tiny working again (already running all the test files again), then backport into the book
12:56 moritz_ $report.eof
12:57 * masak had his $report in a given block :)
12:58 moritz_ .oreally?
12:58 masak colomon, too :)
13:52 masak joined #phasers
17:51 PerlJam joined #phasers
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18:47 Util joined #phasers
18:48 cognominal joined #phasers
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19:03 jnthn oh hai
19:03 jnthn Anyone about?
19:04 cognominal howdy
19:04 cognominal just a lurker here...
19:04 jnthn :-)
19:04 jnthn Anyone about with anything to report/ask/say? :-)
19:04 jnthn If not, this is probably going to be very short.
19:05 jnthn moritz_++, masak++ and colomon++ pasted reports earlier.
19:05 * mberends has a few items
19:05 TimToady I'm just going through a phase.
19:05 diakopter I, urm, made progress on a potential new backend for rakudo. dunno how relevant that is.
19:06 jnthn On my part this week, I got backtraces working, the bracketed infixes working, and a few minor bits.
19:06 jnthn mberends: Go ahead. :-)
19:07 mberends you're probably aware of FakeDBI becoming reality, the most positive thing to me is recruiting Su-Shee++ as an eager assistant
19:07 jnthn \o/
19:07 * jnthn is very happy to see this.
19:08 mberends the other matter is that proto will need more testing and polishing before R *, please test it occasionally and give feedback
19:08 mberends .eor
19:08 bkeeler My $job load is trending up, so I'm back in lurker mode for a little while
19:09 TimToady maybe proto should be renamte P*
19:09 TimToady *renamed
19:09 TimToady or Comet :)
19:10 TimToady Snowman would be the PAUSE equiv...
19:10 TimToady .oO(where you put your modules on ice)
19:10 mberends :-)
19:10 jnthn mberends: Will try and give proto and FakeDBI a spin this week. :-)
19:11 TimToady just seems to me we're coming up on the last chance to rename proto...
19:11 jnthn Aye, and it's...a bit less of a prototype now than it once was.
19:11 mberends it's a pity masak++ cannot attend, it's his babby
19:12 diakopter "masak's babby"
19:12 [particle] perhaps an email to p6c can sort it out?
19:12 [particle] or wait for user backscroll
19:12 jnthn [particle]: No, that'd probably just get more people involved than need to be.
19:12 jnthn IMO, it's up to those who are working on it at the end of the day.
19:13 jnthn I think it's worth giving a less "this is just a throwaway" sounding name though.
19:13 TimToady or move from proto to plasm
19:14 mberends TimToady: nice :)
19:15 jnthn :-)
19:15 TimToady free associations "Я" us
19:17 diakopter if anyone has time (I'm intentionally not looking at you jnthn since you're on a critical path or 12) I'm glad to discuss planning post-R* ideas for Rakudo targetting a different backend
19:18 bkeeler Such as DCLR?
19:18 diakopter DCLR?
19:18 bkeeler or whatever the dynamic CLR is called
19:18 diakopter there's the DLR, but no, that's not what I mean
19:18 TimToady DLR
19:18 bkeeler Sorry
19:19 diakopter bkeeler: i've been blogging about it on diakopter.blogspot.com
19:19 bkeeler I'll add that to my reader...
19:19 diakopter it's on the planetsix :)
19:20 bkeeler Ah yes, then I've been reading it
19:20 bkeeler Riiight, I remember now
19:20 diakopter I guess I forgot to announce it, but I fixed contextuals so they work
19:20 jnthn mberends: I guess proto naming is something to discuss when masak++ is around, anyways.
19:20 bkeeler I thought perlesque was a completely seperate thing?
19:21 [particle] let's call it shirley.
19:21 TimToady in any case, such a retargeting is for the post R* phase
19:21 mberends diakopter: I personally would prefer to postpone extra backend discussion until July, assuming R* is completed in June
19:22 diakopter Damian said he would be using it in his oscon talks
19:22 diakopter oh, that's july
19:23 * diakopter pauses perlesque discussion until jnthn is done with the meeting; I thought a 2min pause was it..
19:23 diakopter sorry for interrupting the meeting; I thought I waited long enough
19:24 mberends no problem, I'd like to ask if this page is still useful to plan the "Distribution" ? http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/rakudo/whats-going-into-rakudo
19:25 jnthn mberends: It's still the only place we really have that I know of for doing so.
19:25 jnthn mberends: So yes, please do ammend/update it.
19:25 jnthn (that goes for anyone)
19:25 jnthn diakopter: No worries, it *is* interesting stuff for post-R*. :-)
19:26 mberends I'd like to ask what form the "Distribution" will take. An installable archive full of utilities?
19:29 mberends The reason for the question is that I would like to soon begin producing alpha versions of what this deliverable is going to be.
19:30 jnthn mberends: Good question. It would be good to hear pmichaud's thoughts exactly, but I'm thinking essentially it'll be something that you can install easily, and afterwards you've got a working perl6 executable, a configured proto so you can install update modules, and the bundled modules installed (if proto can handle installing off a location on disk rather than a git checkout, I guess that we can delegate all those parts of the installation to proto).
19:30 diakopter note, the windows distribution on sourceforge does much of that...
19:31 mberends let's also put random thoughts about the packaging into that wiki page, we can always refine it as we learn more.
19:33 mberends jnthn: proto almost gets there, but only if you give the right commands. It could get a meta-command to put all the pieces together.
19:34 jnthn mberends: I was thinking we could have some "install script" of some kind that would just call proto with the right commands to do the installation of each of those.
19:34 jnthn diakopter: Yes, that'd make a good base.
19:34 jnthn diakopter: Better than re-inventing the wheel. :-)
19:34 mberends jnthn: I'll work on a file: source as alternative to git: and svn:
19:35 jnthn mberends: +1, that sounds sane.
19:36 jnthn mberends: Though...I wonder if we want that?
19:36 jnthn mberends: I mean, if somebody installs FakeDBI, but then we fix some bug, wouldn't it be nice if we then had it pointed to the repo, so we can say "oh yes, we fixed that, you can get latest by doing XXX".
19:36 mberends jnthn: I'm also thinking about http: sources instead of git: and svn: for non core developers
19:37 mberends jnthn: there is a proto.pl upgrade <ProjectName> command
19:39 mberends (proto already uses Perl 5 LWP for http: downloads to self-bootstrap)
19:39 jnthn mberends: http: sounds nice not just for that, but also because then people have the ability to make "releases" of their module seperate to their git master.
19:39 mberends jnthn: indeed, end users of modules do not need all the developers' files.
19:41 jnthn Quite.
19:42 mberends ok, I'll update the proto roadmap, discuss a rename with masak++, and invite all interested parties to join in the development work
19:42 masak joined #phasers
19:42 jnthn mberends: My point was more though that, if we for example ship FakeDBI in Rakudo *. We'd maybe like to install it but then have the source set to point at a place one can get updates.
19:42 jnthn lolitsmasak!
19:43 * masak is backlogging
19:44 masak I'm all for renaming proto, but only if the new name is at least twice as good.
19:44 diakopter protootorp
19:45 mberends plasm
19:45 masak I'd still much rather see proto sink back into the shadows because something much better takes over. in that case, it doesn't need a rename.
19:45 masak that said, I'm not going to be dogmatic about the fate of proto. :)
19:46 Tene masak: shouldn't that then be "only if the new name is at least twice as bad"?
19:46 masak Tene: that amounts to the same thing :P
19:47 masak 'plasm' sounds like an assembler of some kind. 'shirley', you're not serious?
19:48 [particle] re: shirley... http://en.kendincos.net/video-dpntlnff-sesame-street-the-geefle-and-the-gonk.html
19:48 masak ah. botched a paraphrase. it's supposed to be "'shirley', you're joking?"
19:48 jnthn .oO( Perl6 Library System. We take the acronym. pls install FakeDBI ... pls update Web ;-) )
19:48 mberends the best outcome would be where CPAN assimilates Perl 6 and makes a separate installer redundant.
19:49 [particle] rename proto to pls
19:49 masak jnthn: :)
19:49 mberends jnthn: not bad! :-)
19:49 [particle] heh
19:51 mberends what docs will ship with R*?
19:51 mberends anything written in or for Pod6 ?
19:52 masak jnthn: hm. I find I cannot rule out 'pls' at once. will think about it and try it on different people. :)
19:53 masak of course, it would be pronounced 'pliis' :)
19:53 jnthn That'd be pliising. :-)
19:53 masak :)
19:55 jnthn mberends: I'm not sure we have much in the way of docs written in Pod6.
19:55 jnthn u4x is maybe the closest to the kind of thing you'd want to ship (in that it provides the kinda docs perldoc does).
19:55 jnthn But last I looked it's only got so much content.
19:56 mberends jnthn: the only Pod permissible in P6 source files is Pod6. I'm writing some, just to be able to work with it.
19:58 mberends almost every Perl 6 user is going to try the command 'perl6doc whatever', and we should provide something better than a NYI message for that.
19:59 jnthn mberends: Do you have any ideas of what we could do that (a) can be done on a by R* timescale and (b) would be an improvement on that?
19:59 mberends jnthn: perhaps bundle Damian's P5 based Pod6 tools. grok did that.
20:00 jnthn mberends: Are they up to date with the latest Pod6 spec?
20:01 mberends jnthn: no, but close enough.
20:03 jnthn OK.
20:04 jnthn Anyways, I guess we can wrap up this quiet little #phasers and discuss further bits on #perl6. ;-)
20:04 jnthn *:-)
20:06 mberends ok
20:55 masak left #phasers
21:07 bkeeler left #phasers
23:22 sorear jnthn: the Synopses are written in POD6

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