Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #phasers, 2010-06-08

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Time Nick Message
05:38 eternaleye joined #phasers
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19:01 colomon o/
19:01 moritz_ \o
19:02 PerlJam greetings
19:02 jnthn o/
19:03 jnthn We're a few more than last week, it seems. :-)
19:03 * moritz_ is more than last time
19:03 jnthn :-)
19:03 * PerlJam is here and not-distracted for a change
19:03 jnthn Let's go alphabetically rather than randomly. :-)
19:03 * TimToady lurks harder
19:04 colomon I am sitting in my office rather than running around a lighthouse hundreds of miles from here.
19:04 PerlJam TimToady: lurk smarter, not harder.
19:04 colomon Is that alphabetically counting initial symbols?
19:04 jnthn colomon: I guess the lighthouse sounded like a bright idea at the time.
19:04 masak joined #phasers
19:05 moritz_ colomon: I guess that's "you first"
19:05 jnthn I guess so too. :-)
19:05 colomon okay.
19:05 colomon I did a batch of Numeric work the last few days.
19:06 colomon particularly making sure the Cool versions of things were reasonably consistent.
19:06 colomon And added infix:<mod>, and significantly changed infix:<div>.
19:07 colomon Made the single-arg closure Orderings work for min, max, and minmax.
19:07 colomon and did a bunch of work on hash and nested hash hypers.
19:08 colomon I've been planning on doing my best to finish up the Numeric work this week and trying to clean up Range.
19:09 _ilbot2 joined #phasers
19:09 Topic for #phasersis now weekly Rakudo status meetings with phase transitions: Tue 19:00 UTC | IR clogs at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/phasers/today
19:10 colomon .eor
19:10 moritz_ colomon++
19:10 jnthn colomon++
19:10 PerlJam colomon++ indeed
19:10 masak colomon++
19:10 moritz_ I think jnthn is next in alphabetic order
19:10 jnthn I fear so.
19:10 colomon admittedly, getting sidetracked is pretty common for me.  ;)
19:10 jnthn Mostly dealt with RT tickets with my Rakudo tuits.
19:11 jnthn More backtrace improvements.
19:11 jnthn Warnings get line numbers now.
19:11 jnthn (though not a backtrace)
19:11 jnthn Got attribute introspection mostly fixed up.
19:11 jnthn Discovered a $*MULTINES leak (STD has the same issue - or had...maybe fixed now)
19:12 jnthn Also finally got around to sorting out chomp on Windows
19:12 jnthn That cleared up a couple of test fails for me (and probably other Windows folk)
19:12 jnthn Started preparing for Kiev; giving a talk on signatures and a talk on R*.
19:13 jnthn Want to try and make some vaguely useful-ish thingy in Perl 6 as an example to show off and discuss.
19:13 jnthn There's a hackathon in Kiev on the Saturday too.
19:13 colomon that's this Saturday?
19:13 jnthn Yes.
19:13 jnthn General one, not just Rakudo
19:14 jnthn But "Rakudo with Jonathanom" is mentioned in the schedule. :-)
19:14 jnthn I'll help any interested folks with whatever they like - either getting a first Rakudo build, writing Perl 6 programs or hacking on Rakudo itself.
19:14 jnthn If nobody wants that, I guess I get a day of hacking time. ;-)
19:14 PerlJam "jonathanom"?  sounds like you're the main course.
19:15 jnthn I'm open to suggestions of what to focus on.
19:16 jnthn PerlJam: heh, I'd never seen the instrumental case in such a tasty light.
19:16 jnthn .eor
19:16 jnthn masak next, I think?
19:16 masak not much to report. GSoC grant progressing as planned. wrapping up the Web.pm grant. submitting bugs, one a day on average.
19:17 masak .eor
19:17 jnthn mberends?
19:17 PerlJam masak: :( I was semi-hoping for something more exciting
19:17 jnthn Yeah, like 10 bugs a day
19:17 jnthn ;-)
19:18 moritz_ like, what does "progressing as planned" mean?
19:18 masak that there's a plan, and I'm not deviating.
19:18 masak much.
19:19 PerlJam masak: "I'm now so far ahead of schedule that I've decided to implement something else too"  :)
19:19 jnthn masak: Planning "decode" for this week?
19:19 masak jnthn: yes, among other things.
19:19 jnthn OK, sounds good.
19:19 pmichaud <-- here
19:20 jnthn \o/
19:20 masak will make sure Bufs generally behave as arrays and as strings.
19:20 jnthn mberends: feel free to jump in at any point you're here :-)
19:20 jnthn moritz_: you next :-)
19:20 * moritz_ worked on a few challenges since last meeting, and now tries to incorporate MAIN sub into rakudo that patricaks++ has been preparing
19:20 masak my main focus will be on Web.pm this week, though. it seems to me there are certain advantages to have that ready for R*.
19:20 jnthn masak: Agree.
19:21 moritz_ I also got JSON::Tiny up-and-running
19:21 moritz_ there are a few test failures, but they are due to type mismatches, not to real JSON bugs (afaict)
19:21 moritz_ enough to update the book chapter (which I also did)
19:22 moritz_ there are two thiings for which JSON::Tiny needs workarounds right now
19:22 moritz_ 1) backslash escapes in character classes
19:23 moritz_ 2) multis are not exported (I work around this by having an only-sub exported which re-dispatches to the mulit... ugly. Not want that in the book)
19:23 moritz_ apart from that, most time is consumed by $real-world-hassle-with-new-car
19:23 moritz_ .eor
19:23 jnthn moritz_: Haz we a ticket on the multis not exported?
19:23 moritz_ jnthn: don't think so... can do that if it helps you
19:24 jnthn Please do, so it's there to jog my memory
19:24 masak I don't recall a ticket for that.
19:24 moritz_ another good solution would be
19:24 jnthn That's exactly the kind of nasty that I'd rather didn't make it into R*.
19:24 moritz_ proto to-json($x) is export { nextsame }
19:24 moritz_ but that NullPMCA'ed last time I tried
19:24 jnthn :/
19:24 jnthn OK
19:25 jnthn Ticket it, I'll investigate.
19:25 moritz_ will ticket it, and assign to you
19:25 jnthn proto semantics are going to have to change hugely after R* anyway.
19:25 moritz_ who's next?
19:25 moritz_ pmichaud?
19:25 jnthn I think we exhausted the mmmmms.
19:25 pmichaud PerlJam?
19:25 PerlJam Um ... I've done nothing but try to understand stuff.
19:26 PerlJam I'm going to be looking over the book this week though; making sure the examples really work, looking for typoes, grammaros etc,
19:26 jnthn That'd be great.
19:27 PerlJam oh, and I'm about to update the regex chapter to use "my" on them  :)
19:27 moritz_ PerlJam: also feel free to leave # TODO  markers if there's somethiing you find unclear, incomplete or so
19:27 PerlJam (except that I got sidetracked)
19:27 PerlJam I think that's about it.
19:27 PerlJam END OF LINE.
19:28 jnthn pmichaud?
19:28 pmichaud Mainly I worked on details of list implementation.  I'm currently drafting a document of my observations/conclusions for people to react to as I'm implementing the darn thing.
19:28 pmichaud I fixed exit() handling in Parrot, this means that "exit" in the REPL now works properly.
19:29 pmichaud I worked out how to use inversion lists for character classes in regexes.
19:29 pmichaud (mainly how to build them and manpulate them in the regex compiler)
19:30 pmichaud fixed about a half-dozen tickets in RT
19:30 pmichaud refactored the code for curlies as hash constructor --   {; a => $_ }  now dtrt
19:31 pmichaud (as does  {;} and the other variations I could come up with)
19:31 pmichaud found an intermittent bug with parsing of colonpair signatures, fixed that
19:32 pmichaud refactored PAST/NQP so that Parrot's pasm constants (e.g., .CONTROL_LOOP_NEXT) remain symbolic in the generated PIR, instead of becoming integers
19:32 pmichaud applied bacek++'s patch to NQP so that it can now do multies
19:32 pmichaud *multis
19:33 pmichaud fixed the ** range quantifier to better handle <.ws>.  It's still not perfect, but it'll trip up fewer people than it did before.
19:33 moritz_ (it certainly helped me)
19:33 pmichaud fixed underlying issues with .match throwing "Can't substr beyond of string..." exceptions
19:33 pmichaud that's about it for me this week.
19:33 masak \o/
19:34 jnthn pmichaud++
19:34 masak pmichaud++
19:34 pmichaud my plan for today is to work-work-work on lists until I'm done.
19:34 pmichaud that's critical for R*.
19:34 pmichaud After that, I'll fix closures, also critical for R*.
19:34 pmichaud both of these should be in place by the weekend.
19:34 colomon \o/
19:34 pmichaud after that, I plan to just run through RT and try to close more tickets.
19:35 jnthn \o/
19:35 jnthn Excellent.
19:35 masak wow.
19:35 pmichaud (and publish some R* notes)
19:35 jnthn pmichaud: It's *so* nice to have you back hacking on things.
19:35 pmichaud eor for me
19:35 colomon +1
19:36 spinclad \o/
19:36 masak indeed.
19:36 Tene what's the current goal for R*?
19:36 pmichaud Tene: you mean "goal" as in "date"?
19:36 jnthn This month.
19:36 Tene Yeah, that's what I meant.
19:37 colomon Week of the 21st?  (if humanly possible?)
19:37 pmichaud Ideally, sometime in June.  That way we meet our 2Q 2010 goal we set last year.
19:37 pmichaud If we can do it by the 22nd, then we meet the "Spring 2010" goal, at least for the northern hemisphere.
19:37 pmichaud we'd also be able to announce it at YAPC::NA
19:37 pmichaud -however-
19:37 colomon +1
19:38 pmichaud I personally would prefer to release something we're all comfortable with later than to release something just to make a deadline
19:38 PerlJam What non-rakudo things will be in R* ?  Is there an official list somewhere?
19:38 jnthn http://wiki.github.com/rakudo/rakudo/whats-going-into-rakudo
19:38 spinclad we have a definite goal, but release-critical bugs take precedence ... 'when it's ready'
19:38 jnthn Is the most "official" thing so far.
19:38 PerlJam okay
19:39 jnthn Though I've no idea if pmichaud++ has reviewed and agrees with any of it. :-)
19:39 pmichaud I will make a point of reviewing it.
19:39 PerlJam what's zavolaj again?
19:39 pmichaud if I haven't reviewed by next #phasers, then I will drop whatever I'm doing to review it.  :)
19:39 moritz_ PerlJam: NCI wrapper
19:40 [particle] releasing r* during spring 2010 would help dispel the myth that rakudo depends on one man
19:40 jnthn PerlJam: Maps Perl 6 signatures to Parrot NCI.
19:40 PerlJam ah. okay.
19:40 PerlJam excellent
19:40 pmichaud [particle]: is that myth really prevalent?
19:40 * masak never heard that myth
19:40 [particle] it exists outside the p6 circles, from my experience
19:41 [particle] prevalent? i don't think  so
19:41 pmichaud [particle]: okay.  I'm not too worried about that myth then.
19:41 jnthn If we ship a turd, we'll have more to worry about.
19:41 pmichaud Certainly one can look at the release history and say "pmichaud who?!"
19:41 [particle] jnthn: agreed
19:42 jnthn OK. Any other things we should discuss?
19:42 pmichaud anyone else on the reporting list?
19:42 pmichaud am I last?
19:42 jnthn Ah, good point.
19:43 colomon sorear?
19:43 moritz_ what should be the criterions for modules to be included in R*?
19:43 dukeleto joined #phasers
19:43 moritz_ I mean I have two nice modules on github
19:44 moritz_ but there's no reason to add a JSON parser to R*, is there?
19:44 pmichaud R* is a distribution.  It can include whatever modules we think are likely to be useful to others.
19:45 PerlJam "useful" in a multi-dimensional sense?
19:45 [particle] R* needs a web presence
19:45 colomon ufo, maybe?
19:45 moritz_ +1 to ufo
19:45 jnthn Aye
19:45 [particle] faq to separate it from rakudo
19:45 jnthn +1 to FakeDBI
19:45 mberends sorry, at dinner atm...
19:45 pmichaud we can put together our initial guidelines for what we think should and should not be included, but I think it (like Perl 6 itself) will likely end up being a case of experience being the best teacher.  And we should make that clear up front.
19:45 PerlJam I mean, a JSON parser is useful to parse JSON, but it's also useful as an example of how to write Perl 6.
19:46 masak ufo is most useful when installed. so something'd need to run 'make install' on it.
19:46 jnthn masak: I think all the modules we include with R* should be installed in some sense.
19:46 masak oh, good.
19:46 jnthn As in, installing R* gives you the modules "ready to run" too.
19:46 masak aye.
19:47 PerlJam As long as we don't inadvertently recreate the dual-life mess that Perl 5 had :)
19:47 pmichaud agreed, that's my thinking and intent.
19:47 masak PerlJam: that's the idea of a distribution, IIUC.
19:47 pmichaud PerlJam: we're not only recreating it, we're embracing it.
19:47 masak or *an* idea.
19:47 jnthn Mess is awesome!
19:47 jnthn ;-)
19:48 pmichaud just like linux distributions have a "dual life" from the packages they choose to include.
19:48 pmichaud there is no notion of "official distribution".
19:48 PerlJam ah, but something needs to wear the moniker of officialdom (in some sense) I think
19:49 pmichaud that's to be chosen by the marketplace.
19:49 jnthn IMHO, ideally though the modules that come with the distribution should be installed much like they would have been if you'd installed then with p[roto|ls] and thus updatable in the same way. But don't know if that's realistic for R*.
19:49 pmichaud jnthn: +1
19:49 masak PerlJam: Yapsi is official.
19:49 PerlJam wfm
19:49 spinclad and complete.
19:49 pmichaud PerlJam: when you can tell me which distribution of Linux is the official one, we can do something similar with Perl 6.  :)
19:49 masak :)
19:50 PerlJam pmichaud: They are all official but only by virtue of sufficient care and feeding.
19:50 pmichaud PerlJam: and that becomes your answer then.
19:51 masak pmichaud: could someone from outside theoretically take Rakudo and create a non-Star distribution?
19:51 pmichaud masak: I'm hoping it's not just theoretical at some point.
19:51 jnthn masak: Someone *in practice* could. :-)
19:51 Tene I could do it right now!
19:51 masak *gasp* :)
19:52 pmichaud masak: I'm hoping that does indeed happen.  Indeed, it will be a mark of success for R*.
19:52 Tene masak: Fedora is currently shipping rakudo.
19:52 * masak .oO( Rakudo Steal-Our-Thunder... )
19:52 PerlJam someone should even be able to take R* and swap out Rakudo for another Perl 6 implementation
19:52 Tene Has been for quite a while.
19:52 jnthn masak: The idea of "Bio-Rakudo" for example - the Rakudo compiler + a bunch of modules for doing bio stuff - is quite a cool idea, for example.
19:52 Tene So, in at least some sense they're doing it already.
19:52 pmichaud well, fedora is shipping the rakudo compiler, yes.
19:52 masak Tene: that's not really what I meant, but sure.
19:52 pmichaud but we're talking about creating alternate distributions based on Rakudo *.
19:52 pyrimidine :)
19:53 Tene They're shipping rakudo along with an OS to run it with! ;)
19:53 * Tene nods.
19:53 masak ah! a bio-lurker!
19:53 pmichaud Just like Debian has become Ubuntu and others... hopefully someday R* will be the foundation for other Perl 6 distributions.
19:53 * pyrimidine looks away, whistling
19:54 PerlJam Is there anything we need to do to get R* in the various linux dists?  Should we email whoever are maintaining the rakudo compiler packages for each dist?
19:54 pmichaud .oO( I'm glad this is being logged so I'll have notes for creating my R* presentation in two weeks )
19:54 pyrimidine would be nice to see a .deb package
19:54 jnthn .oO( I'm glad this is being logged so I'll ahve notes for creating my $* presentation in 5 days :-) )
19:54 jnthn *have, R*
19:54 jnthn :-)
19:55 TimToady .oO( I'm glad this is being )
19:55 PerlJam jnthn: a $* dist has some interesting possibilities :)
19:55 spinclad $*: anonymous contextual
19:56 Tene The price of R* is Whatever dollars?
19:56 pmichaud apparently, blood be the price of R* :)
19:57 PerlJam ----+  <- rapier
19:57 [particle] . <- wit
19:58 pmichaud () <- Nil
19:58 masak o.O <- masak
19:59 PerlJam so ... how did rakudo get in the linux dists?  Are there soem champions among us?
19:59 pmichaud some early packagers, yes.
19:59 pyrimidine how recent is the fedora package?
20:01 pmichaud I will have to depart briefly... post further questions for me either here or in #perl6
20:02 * PerlJam sends a pile of parentheses to help pmichaud with lists  ;>
20:03 pyrimidine just found the answer, looks somewhat up-to-date
20:03 * mberends backlogs
20:04 jnthn OK, anything else for #phasers this week? Otherwise, we can adjourn to the pub^W^W#perl6.
20:04 PerlJam not me.
20:04 colomon other than pmichaud's big projects,
20:05 colomon anything we really feel we need for next week's release?
20:06 jnthn Not that I can immediately think of.
20:06 pmichaud I'm not opposed to holding next week's release a few days if we think it's important for R*
20:07 jnthn pmichaud: In what sense does next week's Rakudo release relate to R*?
20:07 jnthn pmichaud: That is, are you envisioning that next week's Rakudo release would be the Rakudo we put in the distribution?
20:07 jnthn (I was expecting more that we'd just pick a git revision that works well with everything.)
20:08 pmichaud Ideally, I'd like R* to use a released rakudo, yes.
20:08 jnthn Ah.
20:08 pmichaud if it doesn't work out, then okay.
20:08 pmichaud if we need an extra release, that's okay too.
20:08 spinclad for R*, iwbn to get some practice packing and unpacking the distro (nice independent task from release-blockers)
20:10 jnthn spinclad: Yes - we've to date never tried to actually put a distro together.
20:10 * spinclad (will help)
20:10 jnthn \o/
20:11 jnthn Maybe some of us could start playing with that a little bit in the next week or so.
20:11 pmichaud that would be great
20:11 pmichaud maybe we should put together a R* repo
20:12 mberends could we base a distribution on a rakudo-star target in Rakudo's Makefile?
20:12 spinclad look it over with many eyes
20:12 jnthn pmichaud: +1
20:12 pmichaud I'll do that when I get back from errands
20:12 pmichaud (waiting on others to leave)
20:12 jnthn OK, I think we're done here.
20:13 moritz_ \o/
20:13 moritz_ good fight, good night (or so :)
20:13 jnthn Thanks, danke, tack, dakujem, etc. :-)
20:13 pyrimidine left #phasers
20:13 mberends o/
20:13 jnthn o/
20:13 mberends left #phasers
20:14 masak \o
20:14 masak 谢谢
20:15 spinclad o/
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20:38 colomon \o
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