Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #phasers, 2011-01-04

| Channels | #phasers index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary

All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
08:47 lue left #phasers
08:47 spinclad left #phasers
08:47 PerlJam left #phasers
08:47 TimToady left #phasers
08:47 moritz_ left #phasers
08:48 eternaleye left #phasers
08:48 [particle] left #phasers
08:48 sorear left #phasers
08:48 eternaleye joined #phasers
08:48 sorear joined #phasers
08:48 [particle] joined #phasers
08:48 spinclad joined #phasers
08:48 lue joined #phasers
08:48 TimToady joined #phasers
08:48 PerlJam joined #phasers
08:48 moritz_ joined #phasers
11:23 Util joined #phasers
13:25 [Coke] joined #phasers
15:12 colomon joined #phasers
15:16 sorear will miss #phasers.
15:17 sorear done: translated a lot of stuff to Perl 6 in preparation for Niecza self-hosting.  added pmurias to the team.
15:17 sorear blockers: $reallife
15:38 PerlPilot joined #phasers
16:11 PerlJam left #phasers
17:34 PerlPilot is now known as PerlJam
18:40 pmichaud joined #phasers
18:48 takadonet joined #phasers
18:54 Util Pre-report: Made first cut of Rakudo Star OS X .dmg binary, Started pushing (no code yet) updates to Blue_Tiger. Caught bad cold or mild flu. EOR
18:58 * moritz_ didn't do much Perl 6 related work, just some parrot bashing and answering questions
18:58 colomon Util++
19:00 PerlJam What's Blue_Tiger?
19:01 * TimToady lurks harder
19:01 Util PerlJam: (on GitHub) my tinkertoy Perl5-to-Perl6 translator. Dusty code from 3yrs to 1.5 years ago, that I am slowly feeding into Git.
19:02 pmichaud report: I issued the 2010.12 star release, investigated moving rakudo.org content to a wordpress host, worked on setting up a new blog for myself, and provided some feedback to parrot devs about rakudo breakages
19:03 diakopter joined #phasers
19:05 diakopter I finished porting nearly all of the old perlesque functionality to the new perlesque. ready to start writing a viv backend to desugar STD/Cursor to perlesque. partially blocked on TimToady's STD_P5
19:06 diakopter (eventually) ;)
19:06 diakopter actually to be honest, Cursor should be translated first..
19:07 colomon -- Got the latest IO::Prompter and Testing modules from Damian, added them to the p6 ecosystem, added a few tests, and fixed a few minor issues.
19:07 colomon -- Produced working solutions for all 5 of masak's problems.
19:07 colomon -- Tested jnthn++'s caching patch, determined it caused new errors, and reverted it.
19:07 diakopter also maybe it's a good time for me to transition back to nqpclr (given I can get 15-30 minutes of pmichaud chat time at that time).  EOR
19:08 diakopter colomon: sry :)
19:08 colomon I should be apologizing to you!  :)
19:09 diakopter beat you to it!
19:11 moritz_ so, do we need to discuss anything?
19:12 TimToady what do people most need from me this week/month/year?  besides the usual insanity...
19:13 moritz_ TimToady: Programming Perl 6, the book
19:13 PerlJam TimToady: a finished Perl 6 spec  :)
19:13 PerlJam I guess I should have said "finished"
19:14 TimToady okay, beside omnipotence and omniscience, what do you want?
19:16 moritz_ TimToady: I think the spec is progressing nicely in response to compiler writer questions
19:16 moritz_ ... and users, of course
19:17 Util Was the LTM implementation issue ever resolved? Is Rakudo using STD.pm to parse? Is this something that needs attention, or explaination so others can work on it?
19:17 moritz_ not sure what else we need from you, except the usual community hacking :-)
19:17 colomon If anything, we need to provide more implementation so that TimToady has something to iterate against...
19:17 colomon Rakudo is not using STD.pm to parse.
19:17 moritz_ Util: sorear implemented LTM in niecza
19:17 moritz_ rakudo "just" needs to steal that
19:17 TimToady rakudo could perhaps...yeah that
19:18 PerlJam TimToady: your continued presence on #perl6 seems quite useful.
19:18 TimToady diakopter++ requested STD_P5; anything else on that scale?
19:18 pmichaud given the latest discussion on perl6-users, I'm curious what we'd want to do to declare a "production" Rakudo release
19:19 pmichaud or, alternatively, an "official" Perl 6 release
19:19 pmichaud (besides yapsi, which is already official :)
19:19 Util TimToady: Your (and everyone's) work on RosettaCode has been quite helpful w.r.t. new-user introduction.
19:19 TimToady I think I prefer to think in terms of agreement by more than one implementation on what constitutes "possible to implement"
19:20 PerlJam pmichaud: I think having nice reference material prior to or concurrent with an "official release" is a must.
19:20 pmichaud PerlJam: I suppose.  I'm not sure that's historically consistent.
19:20 TimToady when multiple implementations agree on that, even if they don't actually all implement it quite yet, then we can perhaps nail down some of the loose flounders
19:21 PerlJam pmichaud: times have changed.  expectations have changed.
19:21 PerlJam IMHO of course
19:21 pmichaud anyway, having some set of goals/targets for an "official" or "production" release might be good for Rakudo, along the lines of the ones we had in place for R*
19:22 TimToady I'd be really good at delegating that management task to someone else :)
19:22 pmichaud oh, I think I can manage it; it's just that this sort of thing really wants a lot of TimToady++ input, I think
19:23 TimToady I'm good at being responsive, but lousy at anything resembling instigation
19:25 colomon pmichaud: What sort of goals are you thinking of?  Other than the obvious "it goes a lot faster".
19:25 pmichaud colomon: mostly, "What prevents us from calling it 'ready' now?"
19:25 TimToady well, speed, mostly... :)
19:26 TimToady plus a few little bugs like &foo not referring to the (possibly cloned) proto :)
19:26 TimToady and everything else...
19:26 pmichaud PerlJam suggests we also need better docs / reference material, which is reasonable
19:27 pmichaud so, if we put together a list of those current "blockers", that'd be a good task list for moving to the next phase of development (hey, this *is* #phasers, after all)
19:27 TimToady I guess we need to figure out how 6.0 can be a complete subset of 6.1, so that people don't accidentally use 6.0 misfeatures that will break in 6.1
19:27 TimToady which they will...
19:28 PerlJam I'd like to see a general roadmap that fleshes out the possibilities between the release mile markers.
19:28 PerlJam (i.e., we may have X by release A or release A+1)
19:28 pmichaud that sounds awfully.... vague
19:28 pmichaud at this point I'm more interested in the candidate X's
19:28 TimToady to what extent is parrot refactoring the Big Blocker for rakudo?
19:29 pmichaud I don't know.  I don't have the feeling that it's the Big Blocker
19:29 TimToady even on the speed issue?
19:29 pmichaud or, to the extent that it is -- well, jnthn++ is working on the solution, as opposed to us depending on others
19:29 pmichaud ah yes, speed is a big of a critical issue
19:29 pmichaud *bit
19:30 diakopter speaking of, pmichaud, do you think it's possible to wedge an LTM solution into a direct port of your nqp-rx engine in nqpclr (that I've made)?
19:30 pmichaud I need to understand the LTM solution, first.
19:30 pmichaud but the answer should almost certainly be "yes, it's possible"
19:30 TimToady until the speed issue is resolved, we have to stay low-key on PR, or lots of people will take it as over-promising and under-performing
19:30 PerlJam indeed
19:31 pmichaud okay, then perhaps I'll table any thoughts of official/production until we have a good handle on speed
19:31 pmichaud (and focus a bit more on speed, which is what I've been leaning towards working on anyway)
19:31 PerlJam that sounds like "official" is a year or so away to me.
19:31 pmichaud oh, I don't know if it's that far
19:32 TimToady 11 months and 21 days, maybe :)
19:32 PerlJam heh
19:32 colomon ;)
19:32 pmichaud I have another item for brief discussion, if we're done with that one
19:32 colomon Should we maybe try to come up with some goals that aren't speed to shoot for in an April-ish release?
19:32 colomon Just to provide focus?
19:33 pmichaud if someone can come up with a list of the more major issues, we can see about assigning priorities to them
19:33 pmichaud where "major issues" is from the "user perspective" as opposed to the implementors' perspectives
19:33 pmichaud TimToady++ has already been providing a nice list
19:34 diakopter donde
19:34 pmichaud via comments in irc logs
19:34 diakopter oh :)
19:34 PerlJam The one thing that seems to irk me all the time is Parrot leaking through.
19:35 diakopter pmichaud: sorry if this is noise, but you saw the concat change in PIR? I think that might need some more nqp-rx tweaking than what cotto & bacek did
19:35 pmichaud okay, "reduce Parrot leakages"
19:36 pmichaud diakopter: I think that nqp-rx is pretty well set to avoid the mutable concat... if not, it shouldn't be hard to fix
19:36 diakopter oh
19:36 pmichaud (I'm assuming that's what the concat change is.)
19:37 pmichaud as a first cut,  I'd expect to replace    concat $S0, $S1   with    concat $S0, $S0, $S1
19:37 diakopter assign only
19:37 pmichaud but there really shouldn't be many of the first form anyway
19:37 pmichaud ...assign only?
19:38 diakopter http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2011-01-04#i_3149194
19:38 diakopter I don't know, maybe the other one is allowed too
19:39 diakopter seems utterly silly to me, since one form is trivially converted to the other by the compiler.
19:39 pmichaud oh
19:39 pmichaud the changes bacek made are what I just said
19:40 pmichaud except he did   $S0 = concat $S0, $S1    instead of concat $S0, $S0, $S1    (the two are exactly equivalent)
19:40 diakopter as I postulated above, also.
19:40 diakopter but the deprecation still seems silly to me.
19:41 diakopter oh well.
19:41 pmichaud anyway, I just tried building/running nqp-rx with parrot trunk and didn't encounter a concat issue.
19:41 pmichaud so I think it's okay.
19:41 diakopter cotto was saying he didn't have trouble building, but he did have trouble bootstrapping
19:43 pmichaud I didn't try that.   There are other bigger problems in parrot trunk that are causing issues atm.
19:44 diakopter TimToady: could you perhaps distill the irc comments to which pmichaud referred into a list in some git repo?
19:45 diakopter or someone else who might know where they are
19:45 smash joined #phasers
19:45 diakopter so we don't all have to search for them
19:45 pmichaud maybe search for RT tickets that contain TimToady :-)
19:46 diakopter but... ok.
19:47 pmichaud on another topic -- last week I started investigating moving rakudo.org content to wordpress (more)
19:47 pmichaud the current rakudo.org website doesn't offer an RSS feed, and has been a horrible haven for spam users and comments
19:48 pmichaud and we're basically bottlenecked by alester's tuits (more)
19:48 pmichaud so, I started putting that together, then alester++ cleaned up rakudo.org
19:48 pmichaud (although afaik we still don't have an rss feed)
19:48 Tene joined #phasers
19:48 pmichaud so, since alester++ seems to be progressing on rakudo.org again, I'm planning to hold off on any move to wordpress.  but if things fall behind again, I might pick it back up.
19:48 pmichaud any comments?
19:49 PerlJam +1 to moving especially if we can increase the bus/truck number.
19:50 pmichaud oh, undoubtedly we can increase that
19:50 pmichaud one challenge might be that alester owns the rakudo.org domain -- so we might have to use a different domain if we move
19:51 pmichaud (I have rakudoperl.(com|org|net) so those are available)
19:51 diakopter he's not willing to point it elsewhere?
19:51 pmichaud I don't know if he is or not.
19:51 pmichaud when I asked about it in the (longer ago past) I detected some resistance
19:54 TimToady btw, there was some indication that wordpress might be blocked by the GCF
19:54 pmichaud GCF?
19:54 TimToady or is it the GFC?
19:55 TimToady the Bamboo Curtain of the internet...
19:55 pmichaud you mean the great firewall?
19:56 TimToady someone was concerned about it shortly after you announced the wordpress idea
19:56 diakopter wordpress blog software? or wordpress.com/org ?
19:57 pmichaud wordpress.com, apparently.  latest notes seem to indicate that it's not blocked
19:57 pmichaud still, it could end up being that way
19:59 pmichaud oh, reported blocked again as of nov 20
19:59 pmichaud anyway, I'll keep that in mind -- good to know.
20:00 diakopter (but you can host your own wordpress software, afaik)
20:01 pmichaud ah, one report on oct 15 says it's actually the domain *name* (.wordpress.com) that is blocked.  Other domains hosted on wordpress.com servers still seem to get through okay, which would be the case for us
20:01 TimToady ah, yes, it was JimmyZ at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-12-31#i_3135264
20:03 pmichaud well, if the choice is between  "full of spam and no rss feed"   and "not accessible in china due to political constraints" -- I'm likely to go for the latter.  (But this is likely a false choice anyway -- we may have other options.)
20:03 pmichaud anyway, we'll see how rakudo.org fares over the next few weeks
20:07 PerlJam pmichaud: so, what are you doing rakudo-wise between now and April-ish?  Is there anything you need from the rest of us?
20:07 pmichaud 1.  benchmarking/speed
20:07 pmichaud 2. list documentation (grant)
20:08 pmichaud 3.  support jnthn++ and others working on nqp ports
20:08 pmichaud 4.  review/fix bug tickets
20:08 pmichaud eol
20:08 pmichaud I should also note (somewhat depressingly) that my wife and I suspect we'll have another health-related interruption sometime in the first half of 2011
20:09 colomon :(
20:09 pmichaud indeed, there were a few days in december where we thought we might have problems before christmas (but everything is looking better again since then)
20:10 pmichaud she has another test scheduled for friday, which should give us a lot more information
20:10 pmichaud (results won't be back until early next week)
20:10 pmichaud anyway, my primary goals are to show progress again on reported bugs and on speed
20:10 pmichaud oh, and 5. work on cleaning up perl6 book
20:12 PerlJam your #5 is always on my list but I never seem to get around to doing it.
20:13 TimToady well, just don't get into the frame of mind where whatever you're doing, you feel like you're cheating someone else
20:13 colomon I've very willing to do anything I can to help with benchmarking/speed, especially if that will help take some of the load off of you.
20:17 pmichaud colomon: I'll likely start putting together a set of benchmarks over the next few weeks; having additional tests and tools for summarizing results are likely where I can use help
20:19 tylercurtis joined #phasers
20:24 Util The #parrotsketch meeting looms for some of us. Any final issues before we adjorn here?
20:25 colomon pmichaud: Just let me know what you need, and I'll do my best to help.
20:26 pmichaud will do
20:26 pmichaud I have no further issues
20:29 Util Thanks, everyone! We are adjourned.
20:32 diakopter left #phasers
21:05 dukeleto left #phasers
21:05 dukeleto joined #phasers
21:08 takadonet left #phasers
21:25 lue left #phasers
21:49 tylercurtis left #phasers

| Channels | #phasers index | Today | | Search | Google Search | Plain-Text | summary