Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #phasers, 2011-06-28

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Time Nick Message
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16:03 pmichaud My phasers report for 2011-06-28:
16:03 pmichaud (Items marked "nom +1" are places where nom is significantly improved over master)
16:03 pmichaud What I did:
16:03 pmichaud nom stuff:
16:03 pmichaud * whatever currying
16:03 pmichaud * list slicing, including autotrim semantics (nom +1)
16:03 pmichaud * returns are now lexical (nom +1)
16:03 pmichaud * fail()
16:03 pmichaud * next/last/redo in map loops, lists are now 80% faster than master (nom +1)
16:03 pmichaud * converted more pir:: to nqp::
16:03 pmichaud * try blocks
16:03 pmichaud * dynamic variables
16:03 pmichaud * list assignment
16:03 pmichaud * magical Str incr/decr
16:03 pmichaud * basic sequencing operator &infix:<...>
16:03 pmichaud * inlined assignment
16:03 pmichaud master stuff:
16:03 pmichaud * draft release announcement (jdhore++)
16:04 pmichaud nqp stuff:
16:04 pmichaud * lexical return support
16:04 pmichaud * eliminate astgrammar cruft from HLL::Compiler
16:04 pmichaud * more nqp:: ops
16:04 pmichaud parrot stuff:
16:04 pmichaud * added "signature" attribute to PAST nodes
16:04 pmichaud * patch to speed up RPA.splice by 95%
16:04 pmichaud other stuff:
16:04 pmichaud * booked travel for FOSSCON in Philadelphia
16:04 pmichaud What I plan to do:
16:04 pmichaud * more CORE functionality
16:04 pmichaud * more spectests
16:04 pmichaud * regexes in nom
16:04 pmichaud * implement LoL
16:04 pmichaud * Work on S07 redraft
16:04 pmichaud EOR
16:07 pmichaud oh, I'm also planning to work on metaops.
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16:14 jnthn Over the last week...
16:14 jnthn * .=, .^, .?, .+ and .*
16:14 jnthn * Attributive parameter binding
16:14 jnthn * eval
16:14 jnthn * BEGIN/CHECK/INIT/END first cut implementations
16:14 jnthn * Mu.isa, Mu.does
16:14 jnthn * Basic support for "is export"
16:14 jnthn * Got us to a working Test.pm
16:14 jnthn * Natively typed lexicals
16:14 jnthn * More work on roles, so that we can use them in the setting
16:14 jnthn * Dispatch by sigil
16:14 jnthn * Fixed PAST::Block.arity, so if foo() -> $x { ... } works again
16:14 jnthn * our and my scoped methods
16:14 jnthn * our scoped variables, various package-y bits
16:14 jnthn * my ($a, $b) style declarations
16:14 jnthn * Made Stash a Hash
16:15 jnthn * Literal values in signatures
16:15 jnthn * |@foo, |%bar
16:15 jnthn * Fix GLOBAL lookups, first cut of PROCESS
16:15 jnthn * Many introspection things now work, like .^methods
16:15 jnthn * Assorted CORE.setting additions
16:15 jnthn * Many little bug fixes
16:15 jnthn In the coming week...
16:15 jnthn * Will be in Beijing, so a bit distracted by travel and sightseeing
16:15 jnthn * Give talks at BJPW
16:15 jnthn * Fix magical vars ($_, $/, $!)
16:15 jnthn * new, BUILD, etc
16:15 jnthn * More stuff from nommap
16:15 jnthn EOR
16:15 jnthn Will miss #phasers due to being on a plane.
16:16 moritz pmichaud++
16:16 moritz jnthn++
16:17 moritz what I did:
16:18 moritz * added some more builtins to nom
16:18 moritz * added back basic file IO
16:18 moritz * reviewed Failure.pm, found a few (IMHO) small bugs
16:18 moritz * turned up and reported some other failures
16:18 moritz * added more passing spectests
16:19 moritz tweaked pir:: tests
16:19 moritz PLANS:
16:19 moritz turn X:: things into roles
16:19 moritz implement backtrace
16:19 moritz teach die() and fail() about X:: classes
16:22 moritz EOR
16:22 moritz EOP
16:32 colomon Did:
16:32 colomon * blog post http://justrakudoit.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/euler-5/
16:32 colomon * learned it's actually a trivial one-liner in Rakudo (sorear++)
16:32 colomon * say [lcm] 2..20
16:32 colomon * seriously, that's so short it's barely a one-liner!
16:32 colomon * infix:<**> for Niecza
16:32 colomon * fixed bug in Rakudo turned up by that
16:32 colomon * had dinner with a bunch of Parrot guys
16:32 colomon * promoted Perl 6 to several people I just met
16:32 colomon * worked on my talk for tomorrow
16:32 colomon Plan on:
16:32 colomon * Parrot BOF tonight
16:32 colomon * giving numerics talk tomorrow
16:32 colomon * maybe a lightning talk on sequences if I can get it written and there's still space
16:32 colomon * finally getting some nom hacking in
16:32 colomon EOR
16:43 pmichaud colomon++
16:49 moritz colomon++
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17:06 sorear Did:
17:06 sorear * released Niecza v7
17:08 sorear * fixed adverbs on prefix:<|>, a silly heredoc despacing bug, and made the REPL even more robust to errors (thou++ for finding these three failing cases)
17:09 sorear * fixed $_ use in the REPL, but the implementation is far uglier than I'd like
17:09 sorear * implemented binding to elements
17:09 sorear * changed variables to default to my Mu $x = Any, including aggregate elements but not parameters
17:10 sorear * made postcircumfix:<[ ]> and <{ }> the canonical definitions for $obj[2] and $obj<a> semantics
17:11 sorear * constant $?FOO is my-scoped, even if constants in general are our
17:11 sorear * Simplified handling of C# primitives, you now only need to define them in two places
17:11 sorear * Improved regex **; handles spaces, blocks on RHS
17:12 sorear * finished implementing jnthnian stash handling
17:12 sorear * generally acted excessively grumpy to a lot of people on IRC; Sorry.
17:13 sorear Plan:
17:13 sorear * Spectests this week
17:13 sorear * Then raid TODO
17:13 sorear EOR
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17:45 sorear the spike in github follow rates that normally appears immediately after a release has failed.  I guess this means I've reached awareness saturation among p6a subscribers, and I need to move elsewhere
17:48 colomon joined #phasers
18:02 TimToady maybe you've got a bunch of people downloading continuously who used to be occasional
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18:27 mberends reportlet:
18:28 mberends * enjoyed putting nom's new Test.pm ability to work, ramped up the number of testable files
18:28 mberends * heavy storms in NL tonight, may be affected by blackouts
18:29 mberends .eor
18:54 masak report-ish: went to France, gave 2+ε talks. dropped the ball with the daily blogging. about to get back up on the horse. want to help with nom, but tuits are scarce. EOR
18:56 colomon masak += 1+ε
18:56 masak :-3
18:57 tadzik ε-:
18:57 masak :-з
19:00 tadzik oh, #phasers
19:00 tadzik report:
19:00 tadzik done: passed an exam
19:01 tadzik will do: pass (hopefully) another exam, then focus on gsoc/drinking, traveling in random directions
19:01 tadzik =end report
19:01 sorear o/
19:02 mberends \o
19:02 colomon o/
19:05 colomon ...and then there was silence.  :)
19:05 sorear not good!
19:05 colomon pmichaud just suggested freezing master's spectest so that we can start migrating the rakudo spectests to nom.
19:05 sorear several people have suggested variations on perl6sharp/ironperl6 for Niecza's new name
19:06 colomon (like we did with alpha and ng.)
19:06 sorear I'm wondering if it makes sense to have different names for Niecza-CLR and Niecza-Otherbackends
19:06 mberends sorear: no, but ironperl6 sounds nice
19:07 pmichaud I'm in favor of freezing master's spectest.
19:07 pmichaud anyone opposed?
19:07 mberends +1. the developers have all moved on.
19:07 pmichaud I'm also in favor of doing some file refactors and renames in specs, too :)
19:08 sorear What do you mean by freezing?
19:08 sorear Yeah S02 is way too big :D
19:08 pmichaud "freezing" == rakudo master always checks out a specific revision of roast.
19:09 pmichaud if we're going to do significant file refactoring/renames, now seems like a prime opportunity to do it, with the two active implementations already starting on a fresh set of spectests.
19:09 mberends let's rename rakudo/master to rakudo/beta in the near future
19:09 colomon +1
19:09 pmichaud I'm just going to put it back to "ng", actually.
19:09 pmichaud rather than start a new naming sequence.
19:10 colomon +1/2
19:10 * masak thinks either beta or ng is fine
19:11 pmichaud I just don't see the point in saying "beta was the ng version, gamma is the nom version, etc...."
19:11 pmichaud easier to just put the versions back to their original branch name.
19:11 masak aye.
19:11 pmichaud if we want to tag them specifically, it could become  old-alpha, old-ng, etc.
19:11 tadzik then nom would be delta <Bourne's reference>
19:11 colomon guess there's a conflict with alpha/beta testing concept, too.
19:11 masak "alpha" was "alpha" for lack of another name for it.
19:11 sorear it's always funny when "New" stuff is obsolete
19:11 pmichaud yes, perhaps alpha should've been called "prime"  :-)
19:12 pmichaud or "zero"
19:12 masak sorear: thought "ng" stood for "Next ..." :)
19:12 PerlJam yes, rakudo is well past its prime.
19:12 sorear yeah, Next, but still
19:12 masak now it's "last" :)
19:12 masak well, "previous".
19:12 pmichaud anyway, I don't want to rename rakudo/master until we have something that we're comfortable with replacing it with
19:13 pmichaud i.e., it needs to be at the point where we say "the next release is from nom"
19:13 colomon +1
19:13 colomon hoping that time is fairly soon.  :)
19:13 pmichaud (which I hope to be the likely outcome for July, but we're still too far to commit to that yet.)
19:13 PerlJam sounds like it
19:15 mberends I think there's too much to do for a July date, if we want the ecosystem projects to run on nom
19:16 mberends jnthn told me Zavolaj will need considerable re-work, which then affects MiniDBI
19:16 colomon mberends: does MiniDBI run on current Rakudo?
19:17 * colomon 's Zavolaj modules are all still broken, as far as he knows
19:17 mberends colomon: partly, there are some test fails but other bits work
19:17 colomon *Zavolaj-based
19:18 mberends It has not been urgent enough to get the tuits, relative to nom work
19:19 colomon back in a moment
19:19 colomon left #phasers
19:19 sorear 12:06 < mberends> sorear: no, but ironperl6 sounds nice
19:19 sorear mberends: what did you mean by this?
19:19 mberends I like the suggested name
19:20 masak me too.
19:21 mberends the no was about different names for different backends
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19:22 sorear mberends: then I wonder how I could use that name
19:22 pmichaud we can do a July compiler release from nom even if the Star release still uses master.
19:22 pmichaud that's kind of the point of separating distribution and compiler releases :-)
19:23 pmichaud we can also start a new distribution sequence using nom
19:23 masak a non-Star one?
19:23 sorear mberends: if it doesn't make sense to have different names, then I need to use the same name for all.  Right?
19:23 pmichaud if we feel it's important to get a distribution release going sooner than we can convert Star to use it, perhaps.
19:24 pmichaud (yes, a non-Star one, potentially)
19:24 mberends sorear: I think so, but far be it for me to impose such opinions on you
19:26 mberends pmichaud: I think it's better to keep name-changing to a minimum for PR reasons
19:26 * colomon likes Niecza as a name
19:26 pmichaud mberends: yes, I agree to some extent.
19:27 pmichaud I'm simply pointing out that we have more flexibility than might have been traditionally assumed.
19:31 mberends Since nom will be getting most of the contributors' attention, all we can expect to go into the next Star (ng based) release is bugfixes and triage work. The Star after that will probably be nom-based and much more exciting.
19:35 pmichaud mberends: agreed.
19:35 pmichaud and we can schedule the following star release to be whenever we think nom is ready (not later than October, though)
19:36 tadzik is there anything new in master for Star to be exciting?
19:37 pmichaud it's actually somewhat faster.
19:37 pmichaud (than the previous Star release)
19:37 tadzik mhm
19:37 sorear tadzik: vastly improved garbage collector since last quarter means it's actually possible to build it on my machine again
19:37 tadzik oh, that's something, yes
19:38 pmichaud there have been a few rakudo fixes, and a lot of parrot fixes.
19:38 sorear colomon: ISTR masak was having issues talking about it
19:38 tadzik sorear: what kind of machine are you on?
19:38 sorear tadzik: .375 GB RAM
19:38 sorear colomon: I also STR you had a Plan for Sin
19:38 colomon sorear: yes, just need to find the tuits for it.
19:41 colomon also figure out how many of the weird cases need t be tackled now.
19:42 sorear mind sharing?
19:43 colomon weird cases or plan?
19:43 sorear all
19:44 colomon my plan was basically to come up with a standard template for a trig function in Niecza, and then use code generation to spit out the actual functions.
19:44 colomon because the framework for each function will be basically exactly the same.
19:44 colomon well, maybe with variations for inverse functions.
19:45 colomon weird cases: 1) trig bases
19:45 colomon 2) very very large Ints, Rats, FatRats
19:45 colomon 3) very precise FatRats
19:45 colomon #3 seems pretty worthless to me.
19:45 colomon #2 less so
19:45 colomon #1 I might still be willing to skip for a first approximation
19:46 sorear most trig libraries are documented as losing precision for large numbers
19:47 sorear usually they work by first reducing modulo "2pi", then applying a high-order approximation (polynomial, rational, sometimes CORDIC)
19:48 mberends I've been studying the p5 bigint/bignum docs a bit, and I think leaving much of this to external libs is good for a core language. The important thing is to have good hooks in place.
19:48 colomon sorear: right
19:48 sorear when the input is on the same order as the inverse error of the nearest long double to 2pi, the output will be completely wrong (absolutely)
19:48 colomon sure, but at least in theory for non-num types we can reduce module 2pi ourselves
19:49 colomon I'm just not sure if it's worth fiddling with.
19:50 sorear trig bases are more of an issue
19:51 * TimToady has take a dislike to trig bases
19:51 TimToady *taken
19:51 sorear I saw a lovely rant on the Internet once about the fact that in matlab(?), int(log10(1000)) = 2
19:51 colomon TimToady: agreed
19:51 sorear apparently later versions of matlab special case log10 to return integers when the input is within epsilon of a power of 10
19:52 sorear which annoyed this guy even more, because now it's discontinuous
19:52 moritz :-)
19:52 colomon TimToady: were you okay with the idea we were bandying about of making trigbase a named parameter (rather than positional)?
19:52 TimToady I don't like the extra parameter at all
19:53 sorear it was some CAS starting with M
19:53 TimToady most languages get away with using unaries
19:53 TimToady and sin/cos are traditionally unaries
19:53 sorear TimToady: what do you think of 'use trigbase'?
19:53 moritz sorear: I'm pretty sure that Matlab is not a CAS, and Mathematica doesn't treat it wrongly :-)
19:54 TimToady and I'm wondering about passing closures to .assuming. my &sin = &OUTER::sin.assuming(* * $DEGREES)
19:54 TimToady to just remap args instead of removing them
19:54 TimToady well, I guess one could just write a function for that
19:55 moritz I think radians are fine, and there's a good set of previous art for it
19:55 TimToady at the moment I'm in the mood to make trigbases go away entirely
19:55 pmichaud +1
19:55 sorear +1
19:55 TimToady in that case, change it while I'm still in the mood :)
19:55 moritz +1
19:55 mberends +1
19:55 sorear I
19:56 sorear I'll go take an axe to the spec now
19:56 TimToady ooh, thunder
19:56 moritz sorear: good, then I don't have to :-)
19:56 TimToady I think I'll run on battery for a while...
19:56 * colomon feels like he has too much work invested in trigbases to make a fair call, but will go with the crowd.
19:57 colomon TimToady: out my window it barely even looks cloudy!  just to the far left...
19:57 TimToady I'd rather find a way to remap the functions statically within a lexical scope
19:57 TimToady well, if colomon and I drop off, either we took a power hit, or we're locked in mortal combat with each other :)
19:57 sorear TimToady: use trigbase is currently specced as setting $?TRIGBASE and defining new functions my &sin := &sin.assuming(..), etc
19:58 sorear TimToady: does it make sense to keep "use trigbase" but get rid of $?TRIGBASE, and just have it generate arg remappers?
19:58 TimToady probably
19:59 TimToady we could still even have $?TRIGBASE for use by user code, but do arg remappers
19:59 TimToady rather than inflicting an extra argument on the built-ins
19:59 sorear so, have TRIGBASE set but not used by the core?
19:59 TimToady that was my thought
20:00 TimToady thinking also about the definition of "natural unary" we were discussing the other day
20:01 colomon woo-hoo!  I didn't actually write anything about trigbase for my talk tomorrow, so I don't have anything to delete!
20:01 sorear should we keep the TrigBase enum?  I think it might make more sense to have $?TRIGBASE be a simple numeric multiplier
20:01 * sorear wonders what to do about to-radians and from-radians
20:02 masak ooh, trigbases are going away? splendid!
20:02 * sorear needs a commit message rationale :)
20:02 moritz "as decided by #phasers"
20:02 moritz "overly complicated"
20:02 * TimToady had a fit of sanity
20:03 moritz hey, I sense a new sport: P6 specs commit messages bullsh!t bingo!
20:03 sorear I think I'll keep enum TrigBase, but with more sensible numeric values
20:04 tadzik "girrafe's tongue is 12 inches long". You could slip some controversial decisions behind that
20:04 masak 12 inches?!
20:05 tadzik or so. They clean their ears with them
20:05 mberends almost as long as a zebra's stripe
20:05 masak my goodness.
20:05 tadzik girrafes lick sugar off zebras...
20:05 masak I think this #phasers just jumped the shark :)
20:06 * sorear has to look up what a gradian is
20:06 mberends ok, srsly
20:06 masak sorear: there are 400 of them in a rotation.
20:06 mberends sorear: 1. do you think Niecza's library interface can be Zavolaj-ish, and 2. do you plan to go beyond CLR libs to native libs too?
20:07 tadzik oh, I lied
20:07 tadzik A giraffe has a prehensile tongue that is about 18 to 20 inches long
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20:08 sorear heh, I never knew centigrade was a unit of angle before
20:09 sorear in what countries is the gradian the default unit of laymen?
20:09 * mberends thought only the USA ever used it
20:10 * masak has never seen it mentioned outside of textbooks, Wikipedia, and the spec
20:11 colomon "The unit originated in France as the grade, along with the metric system. " --Wikipedia
20:12 mberends p6l will never forgive us for this Occam Razoring
20:12 TimToady ah, they were probably metricizing 90°
20:12 colomon TimToady: exactly.
20:12 TimToady about the same time as they tried a 10-day week
20:12 mberends Napoleonic, that figures
20:14 colomon I hate to say it, but it kind of makes sense to me, actually.  more sensible than many more popular elements of the metric system....
20:15 moritz gradian: full circle = 400 gradians?
20:16 mberends colomon: please specify 2nd 'it': 10-day week or 400-grade circle? ;)
20:16 colomon 400-grade circle.
20:16 mberends phew
20:16 colomon it means right angles are 100-grades
20:17 * TimToady still kinda likes the idea of PiRats
20:17 moritz .oO( shouldn't we move Perl 6 from pi to tau? :-)
20:17 * colomon is firmly opposed to tau
20:18 moritz my proposal wasn't quite serious, let's not argue about pi/tau in here :-)
20:18 colomon +1
20:18 moritz though of course pi/tau = 1/2 :-)
20:19 masak :P
20:19 pmichaud in the spirit of TMTOWDI, we should support both pi and tau.  :)
20:19 pmichaud *TMTOWTDI
20:19 sorear How insane is it to allow enums with non-integral values?
20:19 * TimToady is getting zigzags in his vision, and it's not lightning, so better wrap up soon
20:20 * sorear thinks it's actually completely sane
20:20 masak Ï„MÏ„OWÏ„DI
20:20 mberends :)
20:20 mberends sorear: what is your use case?
20:20 TimToady colomon doesn't want to tau the line
20:21 colomon TimToady: I've had it up tau here with these puns.
20:21 masak λολ
20:23 pmichaud tau:  http://www.cnn.com/2011/TECH/innovation/06/28/tau.day.math/index.html
20:23 TimToady 入口入
20:25 masak TimToady: renkouren? :)
20:25 masak oh wait, that's ru.
20:26 * sorear sees ninguchinin
20:27 sorear mberends: see latest spec change
20:27 * mberends sees
20:27 TimToady sorear: not nin
20:28 TimToady nyuu
20:29 sorear oh
20:30 sorear 入 and 人 look practically the same in this font :/
20:30 tadzik the first tent has a flag, the second one doesn't
20:31 masak oh you westerners, you're so cute trying to describe hanzi.
20:31 tadzik I feel more like an easterner, or centerner :)
20:31 TimToady the first looks like "enter", and the second looks like "guy"  :)
20:32 masak sorear: I did the same mistake above... but not due to the font :/
20:32 * moritz thought that Westernesse has long since sunk
20:32 sorear with the two side by side, there is 1 pixel of difference
20:32 TimToady maybe you need a bigger font size :)
20:33 masak "...just a bit of difference..."
20:33 masak everyone reading hanzy needs a bigger font size.
20:33 masak hanzi*
20:36 mberends sorear: that use of 'enum' conflicts with my expectation of integer-enum too much, so I would want to call it something different, probably something closer to constants.
20:38 mberends also, enums should be able to auto-number in alignment with a preceding value
20:51 sorear mberends: hmm.  Do you think it would be a good idea to 1. switch back to a "plain" enum with the numeric constants embedded in to-radians 2. switch to a bank of constants with no enum structure?
20:53 mberends sorear: 2 looks better on the grounds of simplicity
20:55 sorear Anyone else have comments/objections?
20:56 sorear My type-sense tells me that constant Degrees = pi / 180; is a bit wrong
20:56 masak I don't think we need much structure there at all.
20:57 masak people who care enough about trig are perfectly capable of defining their own constants, too.
20:57 masak let's focus on the bits of the design where there's an actual need.
20:57 colomon hmmm... I disagree a bit with that
20:57 masak fair enough. let's hear it.
20:57 colomon people who care about trig are probably using radians anyway
20:58 masak aye.
20:58 masak agreed.
20:58 colomon it's the more casual user who might want to use degrees
20:58 colomon and have them readily accessible
21:00 colomon was in Piers' talk this morning about making programming more accessible
21:00 masak sub postfix:<degrees>($rad) { $rad / pi * 180 }; say sin(90\ degrees)
21:00 colomon so now I'm visualizing a junior high school girl trying to use Perl 6 to do her geometry homework, and getting quickly frustrated because of radians.
21:01 masak I think postfix ops are great for units.
21:01 colomon rakudo: sub postfix:<degrees>($rad) { $rad / pi * 180 }; say sin(90degrees)
21:02 masak ENOP6EVAL
21:02 tadzik hi hi
21:02 colomon EPHASERS
21:02 colomon that worked fine
21:02 masak but with the wrong result :(
21:02 colomon :(
21:02 masak there, fixed it.
21:03 masak brain was on sideways.
21:03 colomon only problem is how to work the inverse functions in that way....
21:04 masak degrees**-1 :P
21:05 colomon I guess I'd just as soon p6 doesn't worry about all that by default, though.  Or mostly exposes it via to-radians & from-radians or something like that.
21:06 masak yes.
21:13 sorear have you made up your minds yet?  what should be done?
21:14 * masak votes for axing trigbase types
21:16 * mberends is not really present
21:17 pmichaud I'm fine with eliminating trigbase types.  if we discover we need them, we can figure out a better approach then.
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21:43 PerlJam re trigbase, +1 to the axe
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