Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #pr-challenge, 2015-01-20

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 ether pink_mist: poke me later about custom Makefile.PL code; I can hook you up
00:02 ether (right now, I'm buried in fixing DB breakages at $work)
00:02 ether pink_mist: also feel free to pop by on #distzilla; a bit less noise there :)
00:02 pink_mist haarg: basically because I don't want to complicate the version-matching code more than it already is; it already feels too fragile for me
00:02 haarg or sometimes a bit more noise
00:02 pink_mist thanks ether =)
00:02 haarg just about a different subject
00:03 pink_mist haarg: either way, if you want to poke at it, pull requests are welcome :P the module is part of the PRC :P
00:03 pink_mist though it's got a 0 score :P
00:05 ether has some big changes coming in the next few days for [DynamicPrereqs], fwiw
00:06 * ether got a big block of time finally last weekend and made big headway
00:06 haarg i rather like the idea of Warnings::Version, it just unfortunately can't be done well enough for most purposes
00:06 ether partially spurred on by B-Hooks-EndOfScope being handed out for the PR challenge, which is a prime usecase for the new planned features
00:06 haarg since it can only operate on a category basis and not individual warnings
00:06 ether (so that's another positive outcome of the PR challenge!)
00:06 pink_mist haarg: true :/
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09:43 mje just reading "http://neilb.org/2015/01/19/prc-scoring.html" what does "Has test.pl in topdir" mean?
09:44 neilb mje: a lot of old dists don’t have a t/ directory containing tests, they just have a file test.pl in the top directory of the dist
09:44 neilb that was the first convention for how to test a dist
09:45 mje neilb, ok, I did not know that
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09:45 neilb There aren’t many dists that are both (a) on github, and (b) have a test.pl, which isn’t that surprising I guess
09:48 vti neilb: is there any way to find modules without 'use strict' for example?
09:49 pink_mist lots of modules get 'use strict;' by loading other things, so it's probably harder than you'd expect
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09:50 pink_mist see 'strictures' and 'Modern::Perl' and 'Mojolicious' for three things off the top of my head
09:52 neilb vti: so yes, but not trivially :-)
09:52 vti pink_mist: well, then modules that would not run if 'use strict' was on, like with not declared vars
09:52 neilb CPANTS has a flag for that, but can’t remember if it does the non-trivial stuff
09:53 vti neilb: are there perl4 modules on cpan btw?
09:53 pink_mist perl4 didn't have modules
09:53 pink_mist so no
09:53 vti i see
09:53 Su-Shee and perl4 scripts?
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12:45 Mike__B neilb: so, about the 'challenge' part of the pr-challenge, how many people have performed their January pull request already?
12:46 neilb about 12%
12:46 Mike__B and were you planning on sending out a 'you have one week left' message soon for the 88%?
12:46 neilb yup!
12:46 Mike__B great!
12:47 Mike__B I noticed File::MimeInfo and DBD::mysql are both on the list. For DBD::mysql I tried to contact the assignee but did not get a response. For File::MimeInfo I also did not see any movement yet.
12:47 Mike__B Of course 12% of 350 participants is still a nice result!
12:48 neilb I suspect (a) a bunch of people will drop out, and (b) another bunch of people will do a PR towards the end of Jan
12:48 Mike__B yeah, there's still two weekends left.
12:49 neilb yeah. And there are plenty of people who’ve joined in the last week, so they’ve only had one weekend so far
12:58 jkg I kind of wish I'd found time to do more than the trivial PR I have, but it looks like it'll have to suffice. at least I've made it to round 2 :)
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13:11 neilb jkg: it’s a marathon not a spring™ :-)
13:11 neilb ugh: s/spring/sprint/
13:12 Su-Shee it definitely isn't srping either.. :)
13:13 neilb some months you’ll get dists that you get into, and have no problem coming up with PRs for (I hope!), and some months not
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13:24 mje Looking at the scoring system I wonder if some modules warrant higher scores simply down to length of RT queue e.g., DBD::mysql has an RT queue of 83!
13:25 jkg I wondered if, (instead of, in addition to) the proposed +1 for "passes tests on 5.20, fails on 5.21", a more general "passes on older stable version, breaks on newer stable version" score might be useful. equally, it might be over-complicating matters :-)
13:34 Mike__B mje: I already asked neilb if he could make sure DBD::mysql got assigned, and even proposed it to get multiple assignments per month :D
13:35 Mike__B LWP::UserAgent has 150+ issues and cpanpm has 200.
13:35 mje Mike__B++, I wholeheartedly agree with that - DBD::mysql could use some extra love
13:35 neilb mje: had been thinking of additional +1’s based on # issues. For the adoption list I do that.
13:37 neilb maybe: +1 if > 0 issues, another +1 if > 20 issues, and another +1 if > 50 issues
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14:42 mje neilb, yes, that looks ok. It would be nice to use this as an opportunity to clean up some modules RT queues - especially when the module is so popular e.g., DBD::mysql
14:43 neilb mje: yes, there are some modules that could clearly be usefully assigned multiple times in the year
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15:06 deven neilb: What if you had the scoring +1 for each open RT ticket?
15:06 deven (might have to scale some other scoring to keep it in proportion)
15:06 jkg I think RT tickets might drown everything else, in that case.
15:06 jkg ah :)
15:07 deven so something else that's currently +1 might be +10 or +20 instead?
15:07 deven just a thought
15:07 jkg +floor(ln(#-RT-tickets))
15:07 neilb deven: I think things might get a bit complicated. I think giving a bug score between 0 and 3 gives plenty of weight to bugs. Right now the highest score for a dist is 4
15:08 jkg (this is not _entirely_ a joke, although, it is mostly)
15:08 neilb jkg: worth me looking at later
15:08 * neilb updates his todo list
15:08 deven jkg: good idea
15:08 jkg neilb: if you like, before you do I'll poke at what values give sane results in the 0-3 range for real dists :-)
15:08 deven just pick the right logarithm base. :)
15:08 jkg (but probably not until this evening)
15:09 neilb jkg: that’d be good, thanks
15:09 neilb I put it on  my list for 9pm, so that’s fine — I’ll wait ’til I hear from you
15:09 neilb I have other scoring ideas to hack on
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15:11 deven neilb: How many modules are included by request?
15:11 deven (of the maintainer)
15:11 deven (or via NEEDHELP/ADOPTME)
15:11 neilb deven: the only control the maintainer has is to (a) +1 a dist or (b) exclude
15:12 neilb A handful of people have done that so far
15:12 deven neilb: It seems to me that it would be preferable if those modules got assigned every month, if possible.
15:13 deven After all, they're asking for help, and likely to be cooperative.
15:13 neilb some dists don’t make sense to re-assign. Thinking that dists with high enough score are candidates for re-assignment
15:13 deven Don't make sense because they've run out of things to be done?
15:13 neilb and possibly ask authors to re-confirm their +1, since they might drop it after one PR
15:14 deven How about re-assigning if they still have open issues?
15:15 jkg previous assignment could just be a negative score, so dists with high scores would have a higher chance to be reassigned, or something.
15:15 reneeb neilb: I would re-assign every dist  - except the maintainer wants to...
15:15 reneeb Everyone will find some other issues he/she can work on...
15:16 reneeb so excluding a dist just because it was assigned the previous month doesn't seem right.
15:16 deven I agree that it shouldn't be excluded.
15:16 neilb I’ll write up thoughts on this, as there are a number of conflicting issues to weigh up :-)
15:16 deven adjust the scoring maybe
15:17 deven Some dists probably don't need much work.  From what people were saying about DBD::mysql, maybe it should be assigned in parallel to several people every month!
15:18 neilb nah, parallel not a good idea
15:18 neilb not without knowing whether the assignees are up to it, and the author is ok as well
15:18 neilb We’ve got plenty of dists and lots of bugs
15:21 neilb that’s just prompted a thought [updates todo list]
15:22 jkg neilb: at this rate, you'll have to assign us items from your todo list instead of dists next month ;)
15:22 neilb I have some ideas for side challenges related to that thought! ;-)
15:22 thrig side quest!
15:23 gryphon PRC forking...
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15:47 dolmen neilb: the "PRC Dist Scoring" page has HTML issues
15:48 dolmen neilb, I think you should add checks (maybe with HTML::Lint) to your code that generate it
15:51 dolmen deven, parallel is not a good idea
15:51 dolmen deven, because we want newbies involved
15:51 dolmen deven, we don't want them frustrated because some other participant did the easy PR
15:53 dolmen deven, we want the maintainer concentrated to help one person during that month, not overwhelmed with pull requests
15:54 dolmen deven, avoiding burnout of participants and maintainers must be #1 rule
15:54 dolmen neilb, ^^^
15:55 neilb dolmen: will check the HTML issues later. It was a quick hack, so I’m not surprised.
15:56 neilb dolmen, on the not parallel, agree - that’s what I was trying to say further up
15:57 neilb that’s why I only assign one dist per author per month, unless the author explicitly gives me a different value for max-per-month
15:58 * dolmen is working on a side quest for the challenge: fixing a dependency of the dist he got assigned
15:59 deven dolmen: I was just thinking it might be appropriate in special cases for large modules needing a lot of help.  Not in general.
16:00 deven neilb: There's definitely some advantage to serializing it, but I do still think previously-assigned modules shouldn't be excluded in future months.
16:00 jkg I'm now poking at the metacpan API for the easiest way to get a list of (name,issue-count) tuples, which is definitely a side quest :)
16:00 deven (except maybe if the maintainer was hostile to the process?)
16:01 neilb deven: like I said, I agree, there are some dists that are worth re-assignment, but can’t be blanket. Will write up more detailed thoughts soon.
16:03 dolmen neilb, another way would be to give bonus point to people that keep sending PRs in the months after their assignment
16:03 neilb they’ll definitely get higher on the PR leaderboard, sure :-)
16:04 deven neilb: I'm thinking just put them back into the scoring algorithm for future months, the question is how to adjust the score -- you could reduce it to give other modules a better chance, increase it if the maintainer applied the PR, etc.
16:05 deven neilb: Are you making a leaderboard, or is that just conceptual?
16:05 neilb yes
16:05 neilb :-)
16:05 neilb decide which clause the ‘yes’ appliued to
16:05 deven lol
16:05 deven neilb: That sounds like fun, my only concern is that it might encourage people to focus on trivial PRs instead of doing something harder.
16:06 deven Maybe the score should be assigned by the maintainer as to how helpful they actually were. :)
16:06 neilb yeah, which is why i’m holding fire riught now
16:07 deven Maybe twitter shout-outs instead of competing for points. :)
16:09 dolmen deven, trivial PRs is not an issue. We want people involved. Some will start with easy PRs and that's ok. Maybe their 2nd PR of the month will be better.
16:10 thrig maybe the first PR indicates shark-infested waters
16:10 deven dolmen: I agree, I'm saying if you start posting "scores" based on number of PRs, it might encourage people to game the numbers.
16:10 dolmen deven, this challenge push people to learn how to contribute to CPAN modules
16:10 deven I'm thinking it will be more fun and effect if it's kept as a cooperative effort and doesn't become a competition.
16:10 deven effective*
16:12 reneeb deven: as a maintainer I don't want to give points for PRs. I only want to review and merge PRs without sending mails to neilb or anyone else. And I'm grateful for any PR no matter how "easy" it was
16:12 dolmen deven, if gaming the system really became an issue, we will still be able to involve maintainers to give us feedback
16:13 dolmen deven, this is not a player against a system: the PR is sent to a real human that will review your code.
16:13 reneeb Some PR might seem to be easy for me, but I might be hard for the participant (think of "has to dive into moose", "hasn't worked with XS yet")
16:13 dolmen deven, so I don't think that player will really send bad PRs voluntarily
16:14 deven reneeb, dolmen: If it were up to me (and it's not), I'd avoid "points" for participants entirely and avoid anything competitive.  Or if anything, just a yes/no -- did the participant meet the goal of making a PR in the month?
16:14 dolmen deven, fair
16:14 reneeb deven++
16:15 migo_ deven++ agree completely
16:15 deven Anyone at any skill level and with only a moderate amount of time available can meet that goal, and that's probably exactly why the participation rate has been so high so far.
16:16 deven If people start feeling like they're "falling behind" because a leaderboard shows someone with a lot more time or skills leaving them in the dust, it could discourage people and make them drop out.
16:16 dolmen deven++
16:17 deven On the other hand, showing that yes/no flag for meeting the goal gives the newbie just as much ability to keep up as the expert, and gives some accountability motivation too.
16:17 deven That's my 25 cents. :)
16:18 deven Ideally, we'll have a 360-way tie for first place. :)
16:18 deven neilb: any thoughts from your side?
16:19 dolmen neilb: keep focused on the basic "official" leaderboard (and let others build unofficial leaderboard that involve bonus points for side quests)
16:20 neilb my main goal is to get as many people to do at least 1 PR per month, for 12 months
16:20 deven neilb: Hence my suggestion -- everyone can end the year with 12 points.
16:21 deven (if there's to be any "scores" at all)
16:22 dolmen deven, but I'm not sure that keeping the rules the same for 12 months will keep people motivated.
16:22 deven dolmen: How do you mean?
16:23 dolmen deven, we will see
16:23 gryphon Inconsistency is a demotivator for me.
16:23 Su-Shee are we giving POINTS now for PRs?!
16:23 deven Su-Shee: I hope not.
16:24 Su-Shee I'm out if we do.
16:24 thrig gameification!
16:24 * gryphon doesn't like to play games.
16:24 Su-Shee then I'm out too. also "let's make it a competition".
16:24 Su-Shee I just want to clean up some modules in peace and quiet.
16:24 PerlJam Su-Shee++ me too
16:25 deven Su-Shee: As I said earlier, I think making it a competition would discourage participation.
16:25 Su-Shee deven: yes. I will leave immediately in that case as well.
16:25 gryphon Ditto. I like contributing for the sake of improving CPAN. Gamification just results in me thinking about gaming the game, which is counter-productive.
16:26 neilb Su-Shee++
16:26 deven Su-Shee++
16:26 deven gryphon++
16:28 deven neilb: Positive reinforcement is probably better than any sort of scoring.  I suspect a simple "thank you" for the PR will go much further than any sort of gamification.
16:29 jkg honestly? getting my PR insta-merged was the most encouraging thing so far.
16:29 gryphon deven: You're probably right for most people. For me, I don't want to be thanked. I just want assignments.
16:29 rjbs Gamification without competition is another matter.
16:30 deven rjbs: How would you suggest doing that?
16:30 Su-Shee I mean I'm just a prussian lutheran protestant and therefore forfilling my duty is encouragement enough for me.. BUT I WOULD TAKE CHOCOLATE. ;)
16:30 deven Su-Shee++ lol
16:30 thrig also, whitewashing catholic iconography?
16:30 gryphon OK, point. Chocolate is always appreciated.
16:30 rjbs One original suggestion I made was that every month, every completed assignment gets you a ticket for a drawing for a prize.
16:31 deven rjbs: I like that idea.
16:31 rjbs There is no competition, there, to one-up anybody.  Instead, it's just an incentive to engage.
16:31 deven yup
16:31 deven What sort of prize?
16:31 PerlJam and who comes up with the prizes?
16:31 gryphon Isn't the incentive to engage the fact that we're making CPAN better?
16:32 rjbs That's why I suggested the name CPAN Lottery, which got shot down later after being very very briefly in use.
16:32 rjbs Very.
16:32 rjbs gryphon: You can have more than one incentive for a thing.
16:32 deven gryphon: That was my incentive.
16:32 rjbs gryphon: I exercise regularly for my health, but also because keeping up streaks makes my phone go "ping."
16:32 deven Running for pings! lol
16:32 rjbs I had suggest prizes like "you can pick the top-level namespace for next month's assignments" or "change the color scheme of the web site" or similar things.
16:33 Su-Shee well, make a price for all I care, but then take my name off the the list, I'd like to opt out
16:34 gryphon rjbs: Sure, and if pings motivates you, great. As for me, I dislike being pinged. Allz I'm sayin' is that points/tickets/prizes would take effort, which may or may not be ROI positive.
16:34 rjbs Su-Shee: of the prize, or the whole thing?
16:34 deven rjbs: Another possible prize: getting to influence the next month's assignments somehow?
16:34 Su-Shee off the prize for now.
16:34 rjbs deven: Sure.  The general idea was "fun stuff with no instrinsic economic value."
16:34 PerlJam rjbs: Given that over 350 people signed up ... why do we need incentive to engage?
16:35 rjbs PerlJam: Is that a serious question?
16:35 deven PerlJam: Excellent point.
16:35 Su-Shee rjbs: yes. I would have the same question.
16:35 rjbs If 349 people had signed up, would you still be asking it?
16:35 gryphon The thing I liked about PRC is the simplicity of it. What I fear is that we're talking about PRC v2, with more features, which you can opt-out of if you want, but it's still bloatware...
16:35 Su-Shee rjbs: I really do not understand the need to spice things up for people _after_ they already declared their willingness..
16:35 PerlJam rjbs:  yes.
16:35 rjbs PerlJam: What about four?
16:35 deven Su-Shee: indeed
16:36 jkg I assumed these additional features were more about keeping a high proportion of the ~350 people still engaged in December, rather than about getting people to sign up.
16:36 rjbs jkg: There is that, too.
16:36 rjbs There is an argument to be made that it is not a change that would actually be appealing or helpful.
16:36 PerlJam rjbs: If only 4 people had shown interest I would have considered perhaps that the PRC wasn't engaging enough in its current form and suggested that it change in some way.
16:37 gryphon Maybe we should wait to see if there's a decline in participation before solving that problem?
16:37 rjbs I don't think it's a very good argument to say "we have enough people who will probably be fully engaged as long as we'd like, so we should not attempt anything else."
16:37 jkg mmm. I'm not sure on that. it seems fun to me, but clearly puts some people off, so I'm not sure what I think :-)
16:37 deven Maybe this is a topic best revisited after the January completion percentages are in?
16:37 PerlJam rjbs: or that it failed
16:37 rjbs PerlJam: So, what makes 350 enough?
16:37 Su-Shee gryphon: oh yes! the simplicity of it. and suddenly people want more lists and more things and more.. and refactor the whole module! ;)
16:37 jkg PerlJam: nonsense, I think the original vision of a small group of people each improving a dist a month was _also_ exciting. just not as exciting as 300+ of us :)
16:38 rjbs I also don't see that we're even remotely discussing something like feature bloat.
16:38 deven rbjs: I think this PRC is a great idea, regardless of the scale.  That being said, more participation is great too. :)
16:38 rjbs That is: it is absolutely no harder for anyone to be involved if such a scheme existed.
16:38 PerlJam rjbs: I dunno.  100 would have been enough for me.  Maybe even 50.
16:38 Su-Shee gryphon: there will be a massive decline in participiation and no price will change that. because people sign up for tings and then don't get to it..
16:38 gryphon We're talking about solving a problem that doesn't yet exist, though, aren't we?
16:39 jkg gryphon: it's OK to try to do better even when the current level of achievement isn't a problem.
16:39 gryphon Su-Shee: yes, agreed.
16:39 Su-Shee so if 10% are left by the end of the year, it'll be awesome in terms of .. cold calls and marketing retaining and what not :)
16:39 rjbs gryphon: I don't think we're even talking about solving a problem.  I just suggested that it might be added fun, and might keep or make some people interested.
16:39 PerlJam rjbs: I'm just saying that there's already a good number of people who've shown interest, and adding some other "incentive" now doesn't seem to be productive.
16:39 rjbs PerlJam: Why doesn't it seem productive?
16:40 PerlJam rjbs: What is it meant to accomplish?  To maintain interest?
16:40 deven At this point, we have no way to know the existing incentives will maintain interest or not.
16:40 Su-Shee rjbs:  just do a price if you like it and think it's right. who cares what perljam and I think? just do it, when you like the idea :) make it easy for people to opt out, done.
16:40 PerlJam deven: correct.  Better gather data before tweaking the experiement  :)
16:41 deven PerlJam: That's what I'm thinking.
16:41 Su-Shee and you go and read a marketing handbook. of course gamefication and prices do work (up to a point)
16:41 Su-Shee the data is already gathered on that ;)
16:41 Su-Shee for like 50 years or so. ;)
16:41 rjbs Su-Shee: You keep saying "price."  Is that another way to spell "prize" or just a repeated typo?  Genuinely curious and OED entry on "price" is way way too long.
16:41 deven Su-Shee: But they also beg the question of whether there are unintended consequences as well.
16:42 Su-Shee rjbs: seriously? you're now getting into typos? I'm not a native speaker, I may simply confuse which one is which.
16:42 Su-Shee deven: that is well documented as well.
16:43 rjbs Su-Shee: I don't know what your native language is.  As I said, I was genuinely curious.  It could be, for example, a British spelling, etc.,
16:43 Su-Shee rjbs: or rather not a native typer. ;)
16:43 rjbs Su-Shee: I apologize if I sounded like an ass.
16:44 deven Su-Shee: If you don't mind the question, what's your native language?
16:44 Su-Shee deven: "internet" ;) german.
16:44 gryphon I've been trying to learn internet for years, but still struggling.
16:44 deven lol
16:45 Su-Shee so for me it's Preis (price) and Preis (prize) and Saupreiss (bavarian curse for people from berlin)
16:45 rjbs deven clearly has the hang of it
16:45 deven rjbs: of what?
16:45 rjbs deven: speaking internet
16:45 deven rjbs: Is that sarcasm?
16:45 rjbs deven: It's a joke because you said "lol"
16:45 deven rjbs: ah
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16:46 deven Su-Shee: So "price" and "prize" both translate into the same word?
16:46 Su-Shee deven: yes.
16:46 jkg see also "prix" in, er, some language or other.
16:46 * PerlJam gets a feeling of incredulity from deven
16:46 Su-Shee deven: though prize has two or more words in german
16:46 deven Su-Shee: No wonder it's easy to type either!
16:47 Su-Shee jkg: you don't want to see my typed french. ;)
16:47 jkg Su-Shee: probably better than mine!
16:47 deven rjbs: Much of what I like about this PRC is that it feels like a community effort.  Turning it into a competition in any way would negate that.
16:47 rjbs Aha.  In English (says the OED), "prize" and "price" were once the same word, but became distinct for their purposes in the 18th C. or so.
16:48 deven rjbs: Interesting!
16:48 rjbs deven: I thought I started by saying that I didn't want competition either.
16:48 deven rjbs: I believe you did, indeed.  But would having a prize still feel competitive to anyone?
16:48 rjbs I don't think of a lottery, for example, as competition.
16:48 jkg competition in the sense of a raffle, rather than in the sense of a ... well, the other thing.
16:48 Su-Shee jkg: we should take lessons from le petite couchon sausage au chocolat Yaakov.
16:48 jkg I sort of failed to find a word that wasn't "competition"
16:49 PerlJam rjbs: in a lottery, there's one winner.  The way the PRC is framed now ... everyone's a winner!  :)
16:49 gryphon jkg: lottery?
16:49 jkg gryphon: that would be the same thing as a raffle, not the opposite thing, surely
16:49 rjbs jkg: "contest of skill"?
16:49 jkg yes, that!
16:49 gryphon Festivus was last month.
16:49 Su-Shee so, a battle? ;)
16:50 rjbs Right, I would not want people to have a contest they could do anything to win at, other than "participate."
16:50 Su-Shee call it a pull request slam ;)
16:50 deven gryphon: Where is the Festivus pole?? :)
16:50 rjbs That is discouraging to anybody who's just in it for the work.
16:50 Su-Shee and you get to rap your diff. ;)
16:50 gryphon deven: It's in the garage. As I said, Festivus was last month.
16:51 deven gryphon: This seems like a very US-centric reference. :)
16:51 deven USA-centric?
16:51 gryphon Oh, I'm sure it is. Also, limited to people who watched 90s TV. A lot.
16:52 jkg could you explain festivus, for the rest of us? ;)
16:53 deven jkg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus
16:53 gryphon PRC is a Festivus miracle, BTW.
16:54 gryphon I have so labeled it thus.
16:54 deven lol
16:54 deven I had no idea it predated the Seinfeld episode.  Interesting.
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17:10 rjbs It did??  <click>
17:11 rjbs Huh!
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19:01 deven rjbs: mind if I talk to you offline?
19:02 deven (off-channel)
19:02 rjbs nope
19:53 ambs and one more PR from the C gets merged (Math::MatrixRead)
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21:38 neilb jkg: looking at the distribution of bug counts, >= 50 bugs gets 3 points; >= 20 bugs gets 2 points; > 0 bugs gets 1 point
21:38 neilb that gives just over 20 dists with 3 points, 80 or so with 2 points, and a load with 1 point
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21:45 neilb jkg: scoring page updated with that change.
21:45 neilb dolmen: markup issues fixed, thanks
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23:32 jkg neilb: oh, excellent! I started poking at doing something cleverer but realised I was way over-analysing it... that sounds far better :-)
23:32 jkg neilb++
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