Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #puppet-openstack, 2015-09-11

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:03 linkedinyou joined #puppet-openstack
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00:27 openstackgerrit liaonanhai proposed openstack/puppet-nova: Set reserved_host_memory_mb to 0 using ironic  https://review.openstack.org/211872
00:43 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-keystone: Authentication URLs and endpoint clarity re-factor  https://review.openstack.org/221567
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01:02 openstackgerrit Gilles Dubreuil proposed openstack/puppet-keystone: Providers tenant/user/user_role: domain check/name  https://review.openstack.org/218059
01:21 openstackgerrit Gilles Dubreuil proposed openstack/puppet-keystone: domain name from id lookups return empty  https://review.openstack.org/222428
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01:35 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-tripleo: loadbalancer: use 'source' for novnc balance mode  https://review.openstack.org/219464
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01:38 openstackgerrit Gilles Dubreuil proposed openstack/puppet-keystone: Resource keystone_trust for Keystone V3 API  https://review.openstack.org/200996
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01:52 gildub EmilienM, https://review.openstack.org/218044 is passing with both domain parameter or not
01:54 EmilienM gildub: cool
01:54 gildub EmilienM, wait...sorry..still waiting, I looked at the wrong one ^, waiting for https://review.openstack.org/218059
01:54 EmilienM I go to bed now
01:54 EmilienM I'll see tomorrow
01:54 EmilienM michchap: can you look https://review.openstack.org/#/q/topic:puppet/liberty,n,z today ?
01:55 gildub EmilienM, ah, sure!!
01:55 EmilienM and any core around
01:55 EmilienM good night
01:55 michchap EmilienM: yah
01:55 michchap EmilienM: night
01:55 gildub EmilienM, bonne nuit
01:55 michchap EmilienM: fixed CI?
01:55 EmilienM michchap: all is GREEN
01:55 EmilienM :)
01:55 michchap EmilienM: yay :)
01:55 EmilienM ubuntu/centos on liberty is now pretty stable
01:55 EmilienM yeah
01:55 EmilienM kudos to packagers
01:55 EmilienM ok I'm off
02:24 gildub michchap, could you please check this backport? https://review.openstack.org/222428/
02:28 Vinsh Cheers to the good work on the CI issues. :)
02:28 richm gildub: sorry, I just got back
02:30 richm 1) yes, outside of puppet - but it doesn't have to be different for puppet, and it makes usage of puppet more consistent with everything else, which is a good thing - anything that makes puppet more palatable is a good thing (within reason)
02:31 richm 2) for the case of self.instances, in order to generate a unique title for the resource, we can use the name::domain - but the name would still be 'name' and there would be a domain parameter 'domain' as well - note that in every case, a resource is uniquely identified by the _combination_ of name + domain, just as it is outside of puppet everywhere else
02:31 richm 3) there are already cases where resources are named like this:
02:32 richm keystone_user { 'this is the heat template admin user': name => 'admin', domain => 'heat'}
02:32 richm gildub: there is absolutely no way that keystone_user.self.instances can create that title
02:32 richm gildub: so puppet resource already doesn't work consistently
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02:33 gildub richm, no worries, welcome back ;)
02:33 richm gildub: even for resource collectors, the user can specify Keystone_user <| (name == 'username') and (domain == 'domainname') |>
02:34 richm the only case where it will be tricky is dependencies like this:
02:35 richm Keystone_user[ how to specify username + domainname here? ] -> Keystone_user_role[ how to specify user + domain @ project + domain here? ]
02:36 richm That's really the only case where I can see it would be useful to be able to specify Keystone_user["username::domain"] -> Keystone_user_role["username::domain@project::domain"]
02:37 gildub richm, yeah and that case should be the hint telling us that if don't do that then that's going to the road
02:37 richm so we have to support name::domain for that one case - no big deal
02:37 gildub richm, sorry, ^ the road to *hell*
02:37 gildub richm, and for trust
02:38 richm for trust, it just means we have to support extra parameters - trustor domain, trustee domain, etc.
02:39 richm as far as what the Keystone guys want - they only require that you can specify a domain name for every domain scoped resource, no matter where it is
02:39 gildub richm, we can't have any extra params for trust, well we can but that's not going to help solve having a unique name
02:39 gildub richm, true ^^
02:39 richm otherwise, why didn't they adopt the username = user::domain naming convention or some other compound naming convention for everything else they did?
02:40 richm "we can't have any extra params for trust"?
02:40 richm There are two ways unique names are generated:
02:40 gildub richm, well that goes back to what you're saying with 1. Puppet has idempotent requirement others don't have
02:41 richm Yes, idempotent (ansible has it too, and I'll bet they are not doing ::domain)
02:42 richm there are two ways unique names are created
02:42 richm 1) by the user who is writing the manifest
02:42 richm in this case, as long as the user can create some unique string, we don't really care what it is
02:43 richm 2) by self.instances - in this case, it doesn't really matter, as long as we can uniquely identify the resource by the other fields
02:43 richm trusts poses a unique problem because a trust has no name
02:44 richm so perhaps we apply the same 1) and 2) above to both the trust resource 'title' and 'name'
02:44 gildub richm, 1) well that's true only if one have a way to store that unique string somewhere
02:44 richm for 1) it doesn't matter what the user names the trust, as long as they make it unique
02:45 richm 2) it doesn't matter what self.instances names the trust, because the user will usually not see it
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02:45 richm 1) we don't have to store that unique string anywhere - why?
02:45 gildub richm, same-same ^, trust don't have any extra field we could use for their side effects  to store the string
02:45 richm we are already storing the other attributes that uniquely identify that trust
02:46 richm the combination of trustor,trustee,etc. uniquely identifies the trust - what difference does it make what the name, especially if it is not stored anywhere?
02:47 richm sort of like keystone_user_role - 'user@project' isn't the 'name', and the 'name' isn't stored anywhere
02:47 richm and it's only a 'convenience' that we are able to derive the unique properties of the keystone_user_role from the 'user@project' + roles parameter
02:47 gildub richm, lets put trust on the side for a second
02:48 richm we could just as easily force people to provide user + userdomain + project + projectdomain parameters for each keystone_user_role
02:48 gildub richm, if I says "myresource {"blah": param1='1' }" and later myresource {"blah": param1='2' }" you're going to end up with 2 resources
02:48 richm right
02:48 richm but
02:48 gildub richm, so it's not idempotent
02:49 richm "myresource {"blah1": name='blah', param1='1' }" and later myresource {"blah2": name='blah2',param1='2' }"
02:49 richm you have to make the _title_ unique
02:49 richm as long as the combination of name + param1 + whatever uniquely identifies the resource
02:50 richm so what if self.instances doesn't know that the resource titles are "blah1" and "blah2" as long as it can also generate unique resource titles
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02:50 richm and self.prefetch can uniquely match a resource with a puppet declaration
02:51 richm in this case, openstack blah list will return
02:51 richm blah1_id blah1 1
02:51 richm blah2_id blah2 1
02:52 richm self.instances will create something like "myresource {"blah::1": name='blah', param1='1' }" and later myresource {"blah::2": name='blah2',param1='2' }"
02:52 richm sorry, openstack blah list will return
02:52 richm blah1_id blah 1
02:52 richm blah2_id blah 2
02:52 richm grr, sorry, typing too fast too late at night
02:53 richm self.instances will create something like "myresource {"blah::1": name='blah', param1='1' }" and later myresource {"blah::2": name='blah',param1='2' }"
02:53 gildub richm, sure but the issue is not having different blah1 or blah2, it's about when there is two blah1 with different params
02:53 richm gildub: ok, give me an example
02:54 gildub "project {'p1': name=>'project1', domain=>'d1'}" then later another puppet is re-run with this "project {'p1': name=>'project2', domain=>'d1'}"
02:54 gildub richm, ^ what happens then?
02:56 richm If they are in the same manifest/puppet catalog, then the second would be rejected because the title is already used by another resource
02:56 richm if in completely different runs/puppet catalogs, then you would end up with two different resources
02:56 richm project1 in domain d1, and project2 in domain d1
02:57 richm because the combination of name+domain is unique - the title isn't used
02:57 gildub richm, either way that's wrong ...^
02:57 richm why?
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02:58 gildub richm, ending up with two different resources is not what the user would expect when using a supposedly unique resource name, is it?
02:59 richm it is if they _explicitly gave different parameters_
02:59 richm in this case, they explicitly provided name=>'project1', domain=>'d1' and name=>'project2', domain=>'d1'
03:00 richm which explicitly specify two different, distinct, unique resources
03:00 gildub richm, I'm surprised, believe me I've flapping about that too, but yesterday you nailed it when I suggested not using :: and use domain, then you said 'not idemptotent' and you're right
03:01 richm the point I'm trying to get across is that the resource { 'title string': ...}
03:01 richm the 'title string' doesn't matter
03:02 richm as long as it doesn't conflict with another resource
03:02 richm the 'title string' doesn't have anything to do with idempotency
03:03 richm it is merely a convenience of puppet that the 'title string' is also used as the name if the 'name' parameter is not given
03:03 gildub richm, it doesn't, well when we end up with 2 resources with the same name then that's not idempotent
03:03 richm but we don't end up with 2 resources with the same name
03:04 richm well, name yes - but again, it doesn't matter that the names are not unique
03:04 richm it only matters that the title is unique
03:04 gildub richm, I disagree, we need to take this to the community, see what the users thinks and probably get feed back from puppet channel as well
03:07 gildub another, better counter example that would screw things: "project {'p1': name=>'project1', domain=>'d1'}" then re-run with "project {'p1': name=>'project1', domain=>'d2'}"
03:07 gildub richm, ^
03:08 richm why?  you would have two unique resources - project1 in domain d1 and project1 in domain d2
03:08 richm assuming you ran in two completely different puppet manifests/catalogs
03:09 gildub richm, there should be no assumption what so ever, the provider shouldn't be doing any crystal bulb sort of guess, because it's going to drive everyone crazy
03:10 gildub richm, but yes if you'd like, just run it in a different session
03:11 richm well, you can't run it in the same session or puppet will complain about duplicate resource titles
03:11 gildub richm, yes in that case, but that's not my point
03:14 richm are you saying that it will be a problem because people that use puppet will assume that the title is supposed to be the name?
03:14 gildub richm, I thinks so
03:14 richm there are already counter examples in the openstack puppet code
03:14 gildub richm, I would like to get others viewpoints
03:15 gildub richm, richm, well it's not because some code is wrong that make it right
03:15 gildub we're spending enough time fixing others bad stuff (include mine)...
03:16 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-neutron: Make vswitch optional for ovs agent configuration  https://review.openstack.org/221495
03:17 gildub richm, the title is the name unless a name is provided
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03:18 gildub richm, but when a name is provided, uniqueness among all resources of a same provider is expected
03:18 gildub richm, with such name, and this is where we cross the line
03:19 richm ok - I would like to know if that is a puppet convention or a hard requirement
03:20 gildub michchap, haven't you been burn with those unique name stuff already? per my last 3 comments?
03:20 gildub richm, if it's a puppet convention, don't you think that would make it a requirement?
03:21 gildub michchap, s/burn/burnt
03:22 richm if convention means "something that puppet programmers usually do as a convenience" then no, that's not a requirement
03:22 gildub richm, fair enough
03:23 gildub richm, ok, what about seeing what feedback we can get from puppet channel?
03:23 richm yes
03:24 richm I am over my head about puppet internals
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03:26 gildub richm, tell me about it!
03:28 gildub richm, you mentioned ansible above, I think we should switch to #ansible-opentstack, :) - Ansible doesn't have to deal with those name/title crap!
03:30 gildub richm, ok, I've pushed the following question to #puppet channel:
03:30 gildub Hi, there has been some discussion on #puppet-openstack about using unique names for some providers. The question is: "In a resource, the title is the name unless a name is provided. So when a name is provided is it expected the name has uniqueness among all object of the same resource?"
03:31 gildub richm, hope that's a good starting point, if not feel free to jump in (I know it's getting late for you, sorry!)
03:32 * gildub thinks ansible is more sensible
03:32 michchap I noticed ansible doesn't have the level of control over resource instancing and batching that puppet has.
03:33 michchap which makes it not so great for managing large numbers of things from a rest api or whatever.
03:33 michchap otherwise I quite like it.
03:34 gildub yeah puppet has provided some good/strong abstract
03:34 gildub just being a bit frustrated too :)
03:38 gildub ansible saved my job when I got started with neutron, because the steps are sys/admin clear (before going to more generalization), also the orcherstration is possible, something puppet has not offered, at least in the community version
03:39 gildub I keep wondereing if puppetlabs who is still doing what I call open source 1.0, a community edition (behind in features) and an enterprise one (cutting edge).
03:42 openstackgerrit Matt Fischer proposed openstack/puppet-keystone: Fix *_workers config settings.  https://review.openstack.org/222450
03:43 gildub where opensource 2.0 is the community edition (upstream) with the latest and the enterprise one is the downstream supported version
03:53 openstackgerrit Timothy Swanson proposed openstack/puppet-neutron: Remove use of template based config from cisco ml2 nexus plugin.  https://review.openstack.org/222451
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04:14 gildub richm, on the #puppet channel, crinkle offered that link https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/puppet-dev/CVYwvHnPSMc
04:15 gildub richm, also it seems both approaches are valid:
04:21 openstackgerrit Matt Fischer proposed openstack/puppet-keystone: Fix *_workers config settings.  https://review.openstack.org/222450
04:29 _ody_ gildub: I am going to have to correct you.  Puppet 4, much more cutting edge has been out for several months.  Puppet Enterpise will only ship with Puppet 4 laster this fall.
04:30 _ody_ Puppet-server, the rewrite of the puppet master function was rewritten and released as a jruby/clojure application last year.  It only shipped in PE a few months ago.
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04:50 gildub _ody, what about the orchestration bit? At openstack summit in Paris, I heard it's coming with puppet 4
04:51 gildub _ody, thanks for the correction, I'm glad to hear that!
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07:47 openstackgerrit Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/puppet-horizon: remove hardcoded 'hypervisor_options' list  https://review.openstack.org/215639
07:47 openstackgerrit Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/puppet-horizon: remove hardcoded 'cinder_options' list  https://review.openstack.org/215651
07:47 openstackgerrit Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/puppet-horizon: remove hardcoded 'neutron_options' list  https://review.openstack.org/215682
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10:19 gildub xingchao, hi could you please check https://review.openstack.org/222428 and https://review.openstack.org/222017 ?
10:22 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-designate: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222269
10:24 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-ironic: acceptance: bump to Liberty  https://review.openstack.org/222273
10:25 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-horizon: acceptance: bump to Liberty  https://review.openstack.org/222272
10:27 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-sahara: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222277
10:28 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-keystone: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222274
10:28 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-neutron: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222276
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10:29 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-manila: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222275
10:30 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-trove: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222279
10:31 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-heat: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222271
10:32 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-openstack-integration: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222385
10:36 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-nova: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222025
10:39 openstackgerrit Sergey Kolekonov proposed openstack/puppet-neutron: Add parameters for Neutron QoS support  https://review.openstack.org/216654
10:40 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-swift: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222278
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11:00 openstackgerrit Denis Egorenko proposed openstack/puppet-sahara: Revert "Fixed /etc/sahara handling"  https://review.openstack.org/222142
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11:31 degorenko spredzy, hey o/ are you here?
11:35 iurygregory good morning
11:35 degorenko morning :)
11:35 iurygregory :D
11:36 EmilienM good morning folks
11:37 iurygregory o/
11:37 degorenko o/
11:40 degorenko EmilienM, may be you can help me. I don't understand, why https://review.openstack.org/222142 has failed test for CentOs. It failed to check port 8386, but ss has positive result.
11:40 degorenko and local tests - ok
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12:02 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-cinder: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222266
12:03 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-glance: acceptance: switch RDO to CBS repositories  https://review.openstack.org/222270
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12:33 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-tripleo: Add package_manifest resource.  https://review.openstack.org/203803
12:41 openstackgerrit Yanis Guenane proposed openstack/puppet-cinder: Move default value to '<SERVICE DEFAULT>'  https://review.openstack.org/221005
12:44 spredzy degorenko, yep
12:46 iurygregory hey people anyone can review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/208054/ ^^ Thanks
12:50 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-ceilometer: acceptance: bump to Liberty  https://review.openstack.org/222265
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13:05 openstackgerrit Gael Chamoulaud proposed openstack/puppet-trove: Fix rspec 3.x syntax  https://review.openstack.org/222593
13:07 degorenko spredzy, can you help me with  https://review.openstack.org/222142 . It  has failed test for CentOs. It failed to check port 8386, but ss has positive result.
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13:14 openstackgerrit Yanis Guenane proposed openstack/puppet-tripleo: Allow a user to specify the syslog address for HAProxy  https://review.openstack.org/222595
13:16 openstackgerrit Yanis Guenane proposed openstack/puppet-tripleo: Allow a user to specify the syslog address for HAProxy  https://review.openstack.org/222595
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13:20 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-nova: Implement WSGI support for Nova API  https://review.openstack.org/213315
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13:23 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-horizon: remove hardcoded 'hypervisor_options' list  https://review.openstack.org/215639
13:23 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-horizon: remove hardcoded 'cinder_options' list  https://review.openstack.org/215651
13:25 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-horizon: remove hardcoded 'neutron_options' list  https://review.openstack.org/215682
13:37 Vinsh_ jpena: I bet the object-expirer patch lands if rebased with this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/222278/2
13:37 EmilienM Vinsh: do recheck
13:37 Vinsh well maybe not. thats redhat. hm.
13:37 openstackgerrit Javier Peña proposed openstack/puppet-swift: Add support for swift-object-expirer service  https://review.openstack.org/211549
13:38 Vinsh ^^ was me.
13:38 jpena well, it doesn't hurt to rebase :)
13:38 Vinsh Id really like to see that review merged.  Its a great addition :)
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13:45 openstackgerrit Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/puppet-horizon: add api_versions parameter  https://review.openstack.org/211650
13:48 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-ceilometer: Disable lint warning check  https://review.openstack.org/220613
13:50 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-horizon: Add ssl_no_verify parameter  https://review.openstack.org/206194
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13:55 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-ceilometer: acceptance/eventlet: make sure apache is stopped  https://review.openstack.org/216038
14:02 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-openstack-integration: Prepare Tempest and run smoke  https://review.openstack.org/217352
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14:06 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-designate: Creation of designate::db::sync  https://review.openstack.org/196622
14:08 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-openstack-integration: run_tests: stop pinning tempest repo  https://review.openstack.org/222621
14:09 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-swift: Config resources applied after config template  https://review.openstack.org/205243
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14:31 openstackgerrit Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/puppet-horizon: add new parameters for multidomain support  https://review.openstack.org/211704
14:31 openstackgerrit Vasyl Saienko proposed openstack/puppet-horizon: add api_versions parameter  https://review.openstack.org/211650
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14:39 openstackgerrit Lukas Bezdicka proposed openstack/puppet-vswitch: Explicitly say that ovs_redhat parent is ovs  https://review.openstack.org/189301
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14:42 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-glance: Creation of glance::db::sync  https://review.openstack.org/196629
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14:46 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-openstack-integration: Prepare Tempest and run smoke  https://review.openstack.org/217352
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14:47 manu440 ciao
14:47 manu440 !lista
14:47 openstack manu440: Error: "lista" is not a valid command.
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15:03 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-tripleo: Initial msync run for all Puppet OpenStack modules  https://review.openstack.org/189880
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15:11 openstackgerrit Timothy Swanson proposed openstack/puppet-neutron: Remove use of template based config from cisco ml2 nexus plugin.  https://review.openstack.org/222451
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15:25 EmilienM I updated https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Puppet/CI if anyone is interested to get latest updates about our CI
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15:45 tiswanso Hi all... are gate-puppet-*-puppet-lint jobs set to treat WARNINGs as failures?
16:04 openstackgerrit Sebastien Badia proposed openstack/puppet-manila: Initial msync run for all Puppet OpenStack modules  https://review.openstack.org/189872
16:10 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-tuskar: Initial msync run for all Puppet OpenStack modules  https://review.openstack.org/189882
16:16 openstackgerrit Merged openstack/puppet-trove: Initial msync run for all Puppet OpenStack modules  https://review.openstack.org/189881
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16:39 openstackgerrit Timothy Swanson proposed openstack/puppet-neutron: Remove use of template based config from cisco ml2 nexus plugin.  https://review.openstack.org/222451
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16:54 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-neutron: DNM - CI test  https://review.openstack.org/222703
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17:25 tiswanso figured out the answer to my question is Yes -- RE:  are gate-puppet-*-puppet-lint jobs set to treat WARNINGs as failures?
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19:16 imcsk8 EmilienM: about the sriov bug, i'm checking how to do acceptance tests. is this a good example? https://github.com/openstack/puppet-neutron/blob/master/spec/acceptance/neutron_config_spec.rb
19:16 EmilienM no
19:16 EmilienM imcsk8: you need to patch the other
19:16 EmilienM and add the class
19:17 * EmilienM afk lunch
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19:52 EmilienM crinkle: I have tempest scenarios working on both ubuntu & centos https://review.openstack.org/#/c/217352/
19:53 kindjal Does anyone know how to set up Horizon on ubuntu, working around missing horizon.scss as described here? https://bugs.launchpad.net/mos/+bug/1470143
19:53 openstack Launchpad bug 1470143 in Mirantis OpenStack "'dashboard/scss/horizon.scss' could not be found in the COMPRESS_ROOT '/usr/share/openstack-dashboard/static' after installation" [High,Fix released] - Assigned to MOS Packaging Team (mos-packaging)
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20:06 crinkle EmilienM: cool, i'll look a little later
20:06 EmilienM crinkle: there is urgency at all - I'll continue to work on top of this patch anyway, now we have something that finally works
20:07 EmilienM crinkle: if you're deploying infra-cloud with stable/kilo, I would suggest some backports though - otherwise you'll hit the same issues I had in the gate
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21:20 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-neutron: Restart Neutron agents if packages are updated  https://review.openstack.org/199337
21:21 openstackgerrit Emilien Macchi proposed openstack/puppet-openstack-integration: Prepare Tempest and run smoke  https://review.openstack.org/217352
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21:47 EmilienM good week-end everyone
21:47 * EmilienM away
21:48 imcsk8 i have a problem with spec tests, can somebody give me a hint? http://fpaste.org/266285/42008051/ thanks!
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22:32 mfisch EmilienM: are we using the official voting procedure?
22:32 mfisch for PTL
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