Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #rakudosketch, 2010-04-27

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
11:55 colomon joined #rakudosketch
18:43 masak joined #rakudosketch
18:59 bkeeler joined #rakudosketch
18:59 moritz_ oh hai
18:59 jnthn Rakudo Sketch Time!
19:00 bkeeler hallo there
19:00 colomon o/
19:00 jnthn Wow, quite a few of us.
19:00 jnthn masak?
19:00 [Coke] joined #rakudosketch
19:01 jnthn OK, so, we may as well get started.
19:01 jnthn Since last #rs, we had Rakudo release thanks to moritz++. I've started hacking on the lexical classes and roles task in the roadmap.
19:02 jnthn Basics work, non-basics are explodey.
19:02 jnthn Fixed various other bugs. Got sorear++'s patch in so we can do Perl 5 module uses, and eval Perl 5 code using Blizkost.
19:02 jnthn The closeness grows. :-)
19:02 moritz_ sounds like a start \o/
19:03 colomon we got a lot more tests passing in the last week.
19:03 * moritz_ tried to get s:g/// parsing - failed
19:03 jnthn Yes, I was a little lost on where they all came from. :-)
19:03 jnthn colomon: How's numeric work going? Seems like some good progress?
19:04 moritz_ worked on Match objects - blocking on having rakudo building on latest parrot
19:04 jnthn moritz_: Ah, that's a blocker. That means I probably should get on it.
19:04 colomon jnthn: I think you unblocked my Role bugs.  Or at least, everything I've tried since your patches has worked.
19:04 jnthn Wow. I wish everything I tried since my patches worked.
19:04 colomon moving slower than I'd like on Numeric, but hoping to have a Rakudo day later this week.
19:05 jnthn Great. Did you get unblocked on the weird cmp issue earlier?
19:05 colomon jnthn: not at all, I just reverted it.
19:05 jnthn I didn't get chance to backlog and see how that concluded, if it did.
19:05 jnthn OK.
19:05 colomon at the moment it just means there are two tests we don't pass.
19:05 jnthn *nod*
19:06 colomon but it is full of weird and needs looking into at some point.
19:06 jnthn I'd be interested to get to the bottom of it at some point.
19:06 * masak is here now
19:06 jnthn Especially as it might point to a multi-dispatch bug, though the dump of the candidate sorting didn't look wrong.
19:06 jnthn yayitsmasak!
19:06 masak sorry I'm late. had to pop in at the store before it closed.
19:06 jnthn moritz_, colomon: any other bits to report?
19:06 colomon I did a bunch of little stuff, like defining more zero-arg versions of operators and getting minmax up and completely redefined.
19:07 jnthn colomon+++
19:07 moritz_ jnthn: updated release guide...
19:07 colomon Also +$a now calls $a.Numeric unless there are parrot-y reasons it shouldn't.
19:07 jnthn Oh, that sounds like a good step. :-)
19:07 moritz_ now contains instructions to list all contributors since the last release
19:07 jnthn moritz_++
19:07 moritz_ added a perl5 script which helps extracting those names out of the git log
19:07 jnthn OK, that'll be a nice touch.
19:08 [particle] congrats on the good gsoc news, all.
19:08 jnthn Yes, indeed.
19:08 moritz_ (inspired by the perl 5 release announcements, btw)
19:08 moritz_ masak++
19:08 moritz_ pmurias++
19:08 moritz_ and jnthn++ and ruoso++ for mentoring
19:08 colomon oh, the other thing I've been at is doing p6 programming for $work.  I've run into a couple of minor bugs in the process, but on the whole Rakudo has been impressively stable.
19:08 moritz_ EOR from me
19:08 jnthn I was especially happy to see that all of the Parrot ones also look interesting for Rakudo.
19:09 masak I haven't done much of note in the past week. just submitted 14 rakudobugs.
19:09 colomon masak++  pmurias++ indeed!
19:09 masak yay gsoc!
19:09 jnthn colomon: That's good to hear.
19:09 jnthn masak: Any more cheese news?
19:10 jnthn masak: How much are you tending to use master these days, and how much alpha?
19:10 masak jnthn: GGE is pretty close to working on master. with a bunch of modifications, that is.
19:10 masak mberends++ got proto working on master.
19:11 jnthn Great.
19:11 jnthn masak: What are the main pain-points on master, from your perspective?
19:11 masak November, Druid, Web.pm, Yapsi, Tardis still on alpha.
19:11 jnthn (note, answers welcome on this question from others too)
19:11 masak jnthn: the main workaroundable pain-point is named enums.
19:11 moritz_ JSON::Tiny blocks on Match objects (nothing new here)
19:12 masak for projects that depend on named enums, it's quite a large workaround.
19:12 jnthn masak: How much of named enums do they need?
19:12 masak from an app-cheesemaker perspective, it feels like a large step backwards, larger than usual.
19:12 masak jnthn: not much, usually.
19:12 masak just the names, in most cases.
19:13 jnthn The trouble is that...the spec reached a point of sanity, and then now seems to have complexified again. :-(
19:13 masak there's only one piece of code that I know of that uses the other stuff, and that's the poker script. I already workarounded that one.
19:13 jnthn With the dreaded has enum $.blah <foo bar oh ffs why>;
19:13 masak jnthn: I never understood why that changed anything.
19:13 jnthn Well
19:13 jnthn The spec doesn't say how it works.
19:14 jnthn So I can't know even know if it changes anything.
19:14 masak let's postulate it's equal to 'my enum ...' plus an accessor method.
19:14 jnthn An accessor method that returns...?
19:14 masak that doesn't sound so complex to me.
19:14 masak something sensible.
19:14 jnthn Well no, but it doesn't seem so consistent with has-semantics either. But if that's all it is, well, fine.
19:15 masak the rationale was to make the enum accessible to deriving classes.
19:15 masak that's done with the accessor.
19:15 jnthn Ok. My feeling is that basically if I implement named enums enough to cover the most basic bits, it unblocks most things.
19:15 masak that's right.
19:15 jnthn I may do a first cut in cheats
19:16 jnthn That does enough.
19:16 masak \o/
19:16 colomon \o/
19:16 jnthn OK, so seems I have to fix Rakudo on latest Parrot and do something on named enums. :-)
19:17 jnthn I'll make those two my priorities
19:17 colomon We still need to do List/Array obviously, but the last week has seen a ton of issues crop up with postcircumfix:<[ ]>
19:17 jnthn And then after them return to the lexical classes and roles.
19:17 jnthn colomon: I noticed.
19:17 colomon There are postcircumifx:<[ ]> operators scattered everywhere, each with their own set of features.
19:17 moritz_ didn't pmichaud want to attack arrays/lists?
19:17 masak should we be concerned about the current state of List/Iterator implementation?
19:17 colomon I haven't been able to make head or tails of them.
19:17 jnthn colomon: I was hoping pmichaud++ might just be able to make it tonight.
19:18 jnthn I know he planned to spend the weekend thinking over those lot.
19:18 jnthn I'm not sure how far he got.
19:18 colomon masak: well, they need to be fixed, but pmichaud should be on them any day.
19:18 masak sounds good.
19:18 jnthn masak: Perhaps, but since Pm has them as his first priority ATM, I'm not going to panic just yet.
19:18 jnthn If we get to the May releae and it's not sorted, I'll panic lots though.
19:19 colomon I just wanted to shine a light on the related issue, which seems like it will also need work / organization.
19:19 jnthn colomon: On postcircumfix:<[ ]>, I did discuss with Pm this bug a bit.
19:19 colomon (And which could probably be done by someone other than pmichaud once he has the big fix in.
19:19 colomon )
19:19 masak pmichaud is the architect on that front. if he finds he doesn't have time to focus on it himself, maybe the second best thing'll be to leave a design document of some sort, so that the rest of us can try to implement it.
19:19 jnthn masak: Yes, agree.
19:20 jnthn colomon: In theory I could do some changes related to it in advance of Pm's other changes
19:20 jnthn But I don't know what he has under way.
19:20 jnthn And don't want to create conflicts
19:20 jnthn Since he'll almost certainly be touching those bits of code too.
19:21 colomon And I don't know that it's blocking anyone, it just seems to be something that everyone hits when they try messing around with Positionals.
19:22 jnthn *nod*
19:22 jnthn Yeah, I understand why it goes wrong now.
19:22 jnthn It's part of the reason that I decided to do hash slices differently to the way array slices are currently implemented.
19:23 jnthn It's just a minorly tricky refactor to get array slices that way and touches quite a few places.
19:23 jnthn Let's be patient for some more days and see what pmichaud++ has up his sleeve.
19:23 colomon agreed.
19:23 jnthn If we're in the same position in a week, I'll have a look at fixing it myself.
19:24 masak I've heard git branches are a good way to mitigate conflicts, by the way. :)
19:25 jnthn masak: The trouble is more semantic conflicts.
19:25 jnthn masak: Like, if I take the code in one direction, and it turns out Pm has taken/is taking it another way.
19:25 masak ah, ok.
19:26 jnthn I'm not worried about merging at the source control level, more at that level.
19:26 jnthn On "lexical variables in regexes" - I think Pm and bkeeler++ had some discussion during the last week.
19:26 jnthn bkeeler: About?
19:26 * moritz_ has to leave now, sorry
19:26 bkeeler Yep.  I have a way forward
19:27 jnthn moritz_: No worries, and was good to have you. :-)
19:27 bkeeler Problem is I've had something of a tuitectomy lately
19:27 jnthn That sounds painful!
19:27 bkeeler $work, spring cleaning, party prep for my 40th birthday
19:27 jnthn :-)
19:27 jnthn Have a fun party. :-)
19:27 bkeeler I have next week off though, so I should be able to get to it soon I hope
19:28 bkeeler May 8th if anyone wants to come!
19:28 jnthn I might still be stranded in Iceland. ;-)
19:28 moritz_ US?
19:28 bkeeler Aye, Portland, OR
19:28 moritz_ a bit far :(
19:28 jnthn That's...a long way. :(
19:29 jnthn But thanks. :-)
19:29 bkeeler Hehe, maybe next year
19:29 moritz_ gone&
19:29 jnthn Anyways, glad that things are unblocked and there's a way forward. :-)
19:29 bkeeler Indeed
19:29 bkeeler ball's firmly in my court
19:29 jnthn :-)
19:30 jnthn On the autovivification, I have a better idea of what needs doing now. It sounds mildly tricky and has some easy-if-you-love-the-binder-and-guts dependencies, probably.
19:31 masak :)
19:31 jnthn But I feel less blocked on it than I did a week ago.
19:32 jnthn "improved error messages and failure modes" - who wants to write the backtrace printer? ;-)
19:32 jnthn Apparently there's Parrot improvements on line number reporting though, so I'm hopeful that this will mean once those go in, the line numbers will be decent.
19:33 bkeeler So what's the story on the parrot blockage?
19:33 bkeeler Something to do with :nsentry?
19:33 jnthn Yeah
19:33 bkeeler What's that do?  Anywhere I can read up on it?
19:33 jnthn We were depending on something that (we asked to be and) got deprecated.
19:33 jnthn Well
19:33 jnthn s/were/are/
19:34 jnthn :nsentry lets you specify the name something in installed in the namespace under.
19:34 jnthn Or that it gets a namespace entry.
19:34 bkeeler Ah
19:36 jnthn I think the code that needs fixing may (though may not) be moderately hairy. :-)
19:36 jnthn It needs a proper fix though rather than scattering :nsentry over the whole codebase.
19:37 jnthn colomon: What's left, in your view, before we can mark:
19:37 jnthn 2 **    true hyper/cross/reverse/other metaoperators
19:37 jnthn As done?
19:37 colomon hmmmm
19:37 jnthn What we have now feels...pretty true. :-)
19:37 masak ship it!
19:37 colomon there are still some fudges
19:38 colomon but it's a lot closer than it was, that's for sure.
19:38 jnthn fudges as in, in the tests?
19:38 masak colomon++ moritz_++ jnthn++
19:38 jnthn Or in the implementation?
19:38 colomon in the implementation.
19:38 colomon the tests are still woefully lacking, I fear.
19:38 jnthn OK.
19:39 jnthn I'll leave it in the roadmap as an in progress task then.
19:39 jnthn Just caught my eye as a "are we there yet" :-)
19:39 colomon at the same time, I don't know that I'd be too upset if they went out as is.
19:40 colomon hyper on hashes probably should get done before R*
19:40 jnthn Ah, yes.
19:40 jnthn It used to work in alpha.
19:40 colomon we don't have the Sop at all.
19:40 jnthn Yeah but
19:40 colomon mostly because it mystifies me.
19:40 jnthn We don't have parallelism at all.
19:40 jnthn So Sop is, afaict, pointless
19:40 colomon by that logic, Sop should be a nop, and easy to do.
19:40 colomon :)
19:40 jnthn I don't consider that a blocker to us marking the task complete.
19:41 jnthn lol
19:41 jnthn :-)
19:41 jnthn Well
19:41 colomon but S has different effects on things like &&, doesn't it?
19:41 jnthn Yes, but that'll make our life harder when we come to do parallelism and actually have to give it meaning since it's already there. ;-)
19:41 jnthn Possibly
19:41 jnthn I say we just skip it for now.
19:41 colomon I won't argue with skipping it.
19:41 masak +1
19:42 jnthn Who knows, if we ignore it and fail to comprehend it enough, it may just go away. :-)
19:43 jnthn OK, any more points for this week's #rs? What are folks hoping to hack on this week?
19:44 jnthn (and are there any blockers for it that we didn't already discuss)
19:46 [particle] what's the latest on TT#389?
19:46 colomon I'm hoping to dive into the heart of the Numeric stuff.  But first I need to write a bunch of tests for log and exp first, to work on sorting out that everything works right if you, say, call Complex.log with a Rat argument.
19:46 [particle] point me to the log if i missed it
19:46 jnthn [particle]: Well, the ticket is closed by the looks of it. :-)
19:47 jnthn [particle]: But Rakudo hasn't caught up with the change yet.
19:47 jnthn I may be able to fix that tonight.
19:47 [particle] ah, there it is.
19:47 jnthn If not, probably tomorrow.
19:47 jnthn colomon: OK, sounds good.
19:47 [particle] if you do, we can merge compact_strings_revamp, and you'll get ~10% more speed
19:48 jnthn Should the immutable strings have got us a win too?
19:48 jnthn yay 10%!
19:49 colomon Of course, I'd also like to see us break 32,000 passing tests, and if a little random Rakudo hacking is needed, so be it.  :)
19:49 jnthn ;-)
19:51 jnthn OK, if that's about all we have, I think that'll do for this week's #rs.
19:51 jnthn Thanks everyone!
19:51 bkeeler \o
19:51 colomon o/
19:51 bkeeler left #rakudosketch
20:18 masak left #rakudosketch

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