Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #rosettacode, 2011-04-29

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 Mathnerd314 left #rosettacode
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01:33 Dgamey[RCo] joined #rosettacode
01:33 Dgamey[RCo] Hey Mike - another vandal?
01:35 Dgamey[RCo] Anyone, experience with special (topic) categories?
01:36 mwn3d_phone Special categories?
01:38 Dgamey[RCo] yes,
01:39 Dgamey[RCo] Rdm and I were back and forth about some crypto categories
01:39 Dgamey[RCo] So I want to know how they work in PRACTICE
01:40 mwn3d_phone Wiki categories?
01:40 Dgamey[RCo] It seems to me that I can make X and list Cat:Y on it and Y automatically is a sub-cat of X (or is that X a sub cat of Y)
01:41 Dgamey[RCo] It's all in talk RSA
01:42 mwn3d_phone You can put categories in categories
01:42 mwn3d_phone That's done in [[Category:Encyclopedia]] for sure
01:42 Dgamey[RCo] There is an Encryption ca with 1 entry ROT-13.  It's a subcat of Math.
01:42 mwn3d_phone Yes
01:43 Dgamey[RCo] I assume this can get circular too.
01:43 mwn3d_phone Probably
01:43 Dgamey[RCo] :)
01:43 Dgamey[RCo] I don't want to get too complex.
01:43 Dgamey[RCo] But understanding can avert disaster
01:43 mwn3d_phone If you plan it out you can keep it as a tree
01:44 mwn3d_phone Like the way I organized the tasks before
01:44 Dgamey[RCo] I'm not sure that works but yes.
01:44 mwn3d_phone [[Category:Solutions by Programming Task]] is organized that way
01:44 Dgamey[RCo] I want something like Cryptography (and if possible alias of Crytpanalsis) for crypto related tasks
01:45 mwn3d_phone You can't really alias categories
01:45 mwn3d_phone if there is a page in category X and a page in category Y...
01:45 mwn3d_phone Then you make category X redirect to category Y....
01:46 mwn3d_phone The pages will still be in separate categories
01:46 Dgamey[RCo] Within there's a ton of possiblities that should be worked out later.  Like Classical, Machine, Symetric Key, Public Key, ...
01:46 mwn3d_phone I don't think there are enough tasks for that yet
01:46 Dgamey[RCo] There will be
01:46 mwn3d_phone So burn that bridge when you get to it
01:47 Dgamey[RCo] For starters just Cryptography and an alias
01:47 Dgamey[RCo] exactly
01:48 Dgamey[RCo] So knapsack is both math and crypto (related) and is a way of tagging stuff like that.  That's where the practical part comes in.
01:48 Dgamey[RCo] Knowing how it works before it gets out of hand.
01:48 mwn3d_phone Sounds like a job for SMW
01:49 Dgamey[RCo] Can you introduce me?
01:49 mwn3d_phone I'm not too experienced with it
01:49 mwn3d_phone semantic-mediawiki.org has a manual
01:49 Dgamey[RCo] I'd like to just set up Cryptography, an alias/redirect for Cryptanalysis
01:49 mwn3d_phone And we have used it in a few places
01:49 Dgamey[RCo] ha ha not a person
01:50 mwn3d_phone I'm still not sure what you want the alias to do
01:50 Dgamey[RCo] Then there is the Encryption cat (too specific for now)
01:50 mwn3d_phone Is it just a redirect?
01:50 Dgamey[RCo] I'll start a talk on the main cat page so people can work it out.
01:50 Dgamey[RCo] A redirect should work
01:51 mwn3d_phone Then just put "#REDIRECT [[:Category:Cryptography]]" on whatever page name you want to redirect there
01:51 Dgamey[RCo] Set it up.  Add the cat to all crypto related articles.  Then figure out the organization
01:52 Dgamey[RCo] so set up X.  They set up Y with #REDIRECT.  that's it?
01:52 mwn3d_phone Yeah
01:52 mwn3d_phone But if Y is a category then putting pages in Y will not put them in X
01:52 Dgamey[RCo] And the existing Encryption cat.  Could II just redirect it?
01:52 mwn3d_phone Like I wish it would
01:53 Dgamey[RCo] Oh.  That is unexpected.
01:53 mwn3d_phone Well that's kind of an ambiguous area in mediawiki. It really could have gone either way.
01:54 Dgamey[RCo] Anyway to prevent people adding Y?  Or warning them?
01:54 mwn3d_phone I would suggest trying to set it up using semantic mediawiki
01:54 mwn3d_phone Nothing to prevent people from adding to a redirected category
01:56 Dgamey[RCo] Is SMW active by default?  I just figure out what tags to use?  Or am I being too simple?
01:57 mwn3d_phone Its already installed and used in a few places
01:57 mwn3d_phone Basically its like categories with an extra dimension
01:57 mwn3d_phone For instance: the header template uses it
01:57 Dgamey[RCo] And I am unlikley to hurt myself?  RC? etc?
01:58 mwn3d_phone You should be fine to screw around a bit
01:58 Dgamey[RCo] I'll have a look.
01:58 mwn3d_phone The header template has 1 argument: a language name
01:58 mwn3d_phone It uses it as a value for the SMW property "implemented in"
01:58 Dgamey[RCo] huh?  A language for what?
01:59 Dgamey[RCo] oh.
01:59 mwn3d_phone So the SMW syntax looks like "[[implemented in::D]]"
02:00 mwn3d_phone And it marks that task as a task with a D entry
02:00 Dgamey[RCo] do i write code then?
02:00 mwn3d_phone And if you go to Property:Implented_in you will see a list of tasks and then lists of languages that they are implemented in
02:01 mwn3d_phone (Let me get on my computer...my thumbs are getting tired on this little keyboard)
02:01 Dgamey[RCo] :)
02:01 Dgamey[RCo] I'm impressed.
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02:02 mwn3d ok...
02:02 mwn3d so the header template is the template we put above every example
02:02 mwn3d "=={{header|D}}==" then a newline then code
02:03 Dgamey[RCo] k
02:03 mwn3d that template does lots of things with the argument "D"
02:03 mwn3d it adds "D" as the heading text
02:03 mwn3d it puts the task in Category:D
02:03 Dgamey[RCo] If I were to look at the header template, I'd see the code then
02:03 mwn3d yeah
02:04 mwn3d http://rosettacode.org/mw/index.php?t​itle=Template:Header&action=edit
02:04 mwn3d and it adds "D" to the list of values for the SMW property named "implemented in"
02:04 Dgamey[RCo] ok it looks like line 1 does everything
02:05 mwn3d the template actually uses the long SMW syntax of "{{#set:implemented in language={{{1}}}}}" to add "D" to the list
02:05 mwn3d oh...the property is named "implemented in language"
02:05 Dgamey[RCo] yeah I was having lisp flashbacks
02:05 mwn3d thank god i didnt know that before...i would have typed it a bunch on that tiny keyboard
02:06 mwn3d anyway....alternate syntax for that little bit of code is "[[implemented in language::{{{1}}}]]"
02:06 Dgamey[RCo] so i need to understand the framework and the levels of {}
02:06 mwn3d the "{{{1}}}" just means "the first parameter given"
02:07 Dgamey[RCo] why 3 {
02:07 mwn3d thats what mediawiki chose
02:07 Dgamey[RCo] k
02:08 mwn3d the "{{" at the start and "}}" at the end are the bounds for whats mediawiki calls a "parser function"
02:08 Dgamey[RCo] k
02:08 mwn3d there are a bunch of them like "#if" and "#set" (which is for SMW only) and a bunch more
02:08 Dgamey[RCo] and implement in language ... is a verb or something that does the add
02:09 mwn3d thats just the name of a property
02:09 mwn3d that could be anything
02:09 Dgamey[RCo] so an assign
02:09 Dgamey[RCo] k
02:09 mwn3d so here is what that little assignment does: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Pr​operty:Implemented_in_language
02:10 mwn3d on that page you can see that the task "100 doors" is implemented in languages 6502 assembly, 8086 assembly, ABAP and tons more
02:11 Dgamey[RCo] k
02:11 mwn3d heres a smaller one: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Property:Graduate_of
02:11 mwn3d there you can see that i am a graduate of RIT and that Dkf graduated from manchester and cambridge (impressive)
02:12 Dgamey[RCo] so far i follow
02:12 mwn3d so for the crypto tasks...
02:13 mwn3d you could set up a property called "cryptography type" or something...not sure of the right word
02:13 Dgamey[RCo] k
02:13 mwn3d and on a public key crypto page you add "[[Cryptography type::public key]]"
02:14 mwn3d and on a hashing algorithm page you add "[[Cryptography type::Hashing]]"
02:14 mwn3d etc etc
02:14 Dgamey[RCo] and they would be like RIT, etc
02:14 mwn3d yep
02:14 Dgamey[RCo] on the property page
02:14 mwn3d yes
02:15 mwn3d does that sound like what you want?
02:15 Dgamey[RCo] so can i expand all [[cyrpto type::public key]] on another page?
02:15 mwn3d yes i think so
02:15 Dgamey[RCo] so i could have headings and explain each type
02:16 mwn3d there is a way but im not sure if it would be easy to set up...
02:16 Dgamey[RCo] the rub
02:17 Dgamey[RCo] sounds like i have to read some more. at least the fw isn't too alien
02:17 mwn3d and anything you learn try to summarize it somewhere for us
02:18 mwn3d cause i dont think anyone here is an expert
02:18 Dgamey[RCo] on the talk page
02:18 mwn3d anywhere
02:18 mwn3d even on User:Dgamey/SMW_notes
02:19 Dgamey[RCo] and I can make it add to a category page if I put [[prop::name]] too
02:19 Dgamey[RCo] That's the other thing.  Some tasks have slashes.  Like MD5 and MD5/Implementation
02:19 mwn3d itll be on the property page
02:20 mwn3d which is what i linked you to before with "implemented in language" and "graduate of"
02:20 Dgamey[RCo] I suppose I could redirect a category page to a property page
02:21 mwn3d well...try to get the properties assigned to tasks first and see if the property page does what you want
02:21 Dgamey[RCo] People could still break it but ... yeah
02:21 mwn3d everything can be broken. look at EC2.
02:22 Dgamey[RCo] EC2?
02:22 Dgamey[RCo] I prefer:  Everything usable can be broken?
02:23 mwn3d the amazon cloud that failed like a week ago
02:23 Dgamey[RCo] yes
02:23 Dgamey[RCo] What is the difference between theory and practice?
02:23 mwn3d everything works in theory
02:24 Dgamey[RCo] that too
02:24 Dgamey[RCo] Nothing, in theory.
02:26 Dgamey[RCo] Ok, last question.  If I want to just get started, would I have a general catch all property name?  Like [[Cypto type::general]] until I work it out.
02:27 mwn3d thats fine. youll just have to change it later.
02:28 Dgamey[RCo] That would be the idea.
02:29 mwn3d then have at it
02:30 Dgamey[RCo] I has some reading too do
02:30 Dgamey[RCo] But first I have some real work to do :(
02:30 mwn3d yeah...im gonna go take a shower and go to bed now. if you have questions go ahead and ask in here or on a talk page. we can try to help.
02:30 mwn3d good luck (with this and your real work)
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02:32 Dgamey[RCo] thanks.  It does mean i will need to hold off on the category page.
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