Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #rosettacode, 2011-12-01

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Time Nick Message
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04:29 ErikSiers Good evening, gentlemen.
04:30 ErikSiers i've been pondering the [[basic]] situation
04:30 fedaykin http://rosettacode.org/wiki/basic
04:31 ErikSiers (i don't know if this has been brought up before or not)
04:31 ErikSiers various dialects of the language diverge pretty widely from the standard
04:32 ErikSiers in fact, i can only think of one right offhand that actually refers to itself as "ansi standard basic"
04:33 ErikSiers most modern basics are either ms basic-compatible ([[freebasic]], [[qb64]], , etc
04:33 fedaykin http://rosettacode.org/wiki/freebasic (Doesn't exist.)  http://rosettacode.org/wiki/qb64 (Doesn't exist.)
04:33 ErikSiers ...doesn't exist?
04:33 ErikSiers stupid capitalization errors, sigh
04:34 ErikSiers as i was saying, either compatible with some form of ms basic, or else compatible with nothing and go their own way (purebasic, powerbasic, darkbasic, many others)
04:35 ErikSiers the way i've been handling things up to now is, if a language has its own category, i USUALLY put a solution in its own subsection
04:35 ErikSiers while if it's just a page, i've been putting it under the generic "basic" heading
04:36 ErikSiers the problem is, since i grew up using ms basic, my viewpoint is heavily skewed in that direction, with other dialects looking "non-standard" to me
04:37 ErikSiers unlike other languages, there haven't been any updated standards published; iirc the most recent one is from around 1985
04:37 ErikSiers (and even *that* is widely ignored)
04:38 ErikSiers what i'm wondering is, should the generic "basic" category be removed from solutions, and each dialect be given its own subsection?
04:39 ErikSiers i.e. should we see =={{header|BASICA}}== , as opposed to =={{header|BASIC}}== {{works with|BASICA}} ?
06:44 mischi ErikSiers: The situation with Pascal is not that different, maybe not as bad.
06:45 mischi There we have 3 entries: Pascal, Delphi and ObjectPascal.
06:45 ErikSiers my understanding of pascal is that they're all fairly similar. if you can read pascal, you can probably read delphi
06:46 ErikSiers same is not true of some basics; purebasic is very different from, say, qbasic
06:46 mischi I would have preferred to have them all together. It makes comparison easier
06:46 ErikSiers for that matter, even the comment character differs between implementations -- darkbasic uses ` (backtick), ms basic uses ' (single quote), the standard calls for ! (exclamation pt)
06:47 ErikSiers what, every basic example grouped under ==basic== ?
06:47 ErikSiers hm... that does have its merits
06:47 mischi like you have it.
06:48 ErikSiers what about the existing examples? i put powerbasic separate from "normal" basic, and whoever does purebasic does the same. vb is listed separately, etc.
06:49 ErikSiers ...not to mention some languages that call themselves "basic" but aren't really *cough*cough*vb.net*cough*cough*
06:49 mischi i did not really look into it, but if they are under a common heading, it is fine.
06:50 mischi my point of view.
06:50 ErikSiers hm. let's see if anyone else wants to weigh in on this. this is the sort of change where literally every single task on rc would have to be edited
06:50 mischi otherwise, you might end up with an example in each separate language, where the difference is just the sign for the comments.
06:50 ErikSiers true
06:51 ErikSiers ...which should only be important in the comments task :-)
06:51 mischi or at least lots of links from one to the other. that's what i did in the delphi, pascal, object pascal case.
06:52 ErikSiers what i've been doing right now is adding "See also: [[#PureBasic]], (etc.)"
06:52 fedaykin http://rosettacode.org/wiki/#PureBasic
06:53 ErikSiers but if all basic-family solutions were centralized under ==basic==, then yeah, i guess it would make better sense than scattering them all over the page
06:53 ErikSiers ...as is currently done, for the most part
06:55 ErikSiers i'd like to hear what mikemol and mwn3d have to say about it (if anything)
06:55 ErikSiers ...and any other long-time members
06:55 eMBee scheme has a similar problem with racket
06:56 ErikSiers scheme is a lisp dialect, right?
06:57 mischi I just had a look. hm. I thought the pascal situation is bad, but basic is much worse.
06:57 eMBee the thing i would look at is: anyone searching a say powerbasic solution, would that person consider looking in the basic section? or would he/she expect it somewhere among P?
06:57 ErikSiers yeah. basic is a nightmare
06:57 ErikSiers i don't know. *my* thing would be to search the page for "powerbasic" using the browser's search function
06:58 ErikSiers but if they're looking at the page's table of contents, basic is usually near the top, while "P" is often pretty far down
06:58 eMBee the thing with pascal is that i think (but i don't know) that delphi users would not necesarely think to look in the pascal section, as delphi is i think a rather well known name already
06:58 ErikSiers some of the tasks with lots of solutions, i have to scroll down once or twice to even SEE powerbasic
06:59 ErikSiers i don't know enough about delphi to say as far as that goes
06:59 ErikSiers pascal is read-only to me
06:59 eMBee well, delphi is from what i read just pascal with objects
06:59 eMBee it is the name association that i am wondering about
07:00 ErikSiers my understanding is that either delphi led to object pascal, or vice-versa
07:00 mischi eMBee: agreed. the point is that most Delphi examples resemble little "Delphi character" but more of plain Pascal, mostly due to the nature of most tasks, namely commandline utilities.
07:00 ErikSiers from [[Category:Delphi]]: "It uses Object Pascal as the programming language."
07:00 fedaykin http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Delphi
07:01 mischi yes, but most examples are procedural pascal.
07:01 mischi still valid delphi :-)
07:01 eMBee do all delphi users know that the programming language is called object pascal?
07:01 ErikSiers there's only 6 tasks specifically solved in object pascal
07:02 ErikSiers i don't know any delphi programmers to even ask :-)
07:03 ErikSiers Hypftier is listed as a beginning delphi programmer; could ask him
07:03 ErikSiers ...when he comes back online
07:05 mischi The freepascal has a directive to select the compatibility mode; delphi, MacPas, fpc, fpc  Object Pascal, TurboPascal, Iso.  :-)
07:06 ErikSiers interesting
07:06 mischi the overlap is large and i hate fragmentation.
07:06 ErikSiers freebasic has a similar directive, but it only supports "qb", "fblite", and "fb"
07:07 ErikSiers ...and "deprecated", which is close enough to "fblite" to make no difference
07:07 ErikSiers language fragmentation is the way things are with basic
07:08 ErikSiers when i moved from qbasic to visual basic, i essentially had to learn an entirely new language that was similar to what i knew, but nowhere near the same
07:08 mischi is there a wiki page about the differences?
07:08 ErikSiers what, qb vs vb? not that i know of
07:09 ErikSiers the differences are so many that it's hard to compare
07:09 ErikSiers vb doesn't support the command line; qb doesn't support windows
07:10 ErikSiers vb is event-oriented, qb is essentially sequential
07:10 ErikSiers event-DRIVEN
07:10 ErikSiers ...whatever
07:10 mischi got it.
07:11 mischi similar to Delphi - plain Pascal.
07:11 mischi but can vb also take sequential?
07:12 ErikSiers sorta
07:12 ErikSiers vb can't compile a qb program without change
07:12 ErikSiers depends on the program. might be a simple as wrapping the code in "sub main...end sub", might need a complete rewrite
07:12 ErikSiers *as simple
07:13 ErikSiers "complete rewrite" is more likely than "add sub main"
07:14 mischi and what is the actual situation. Are there  many existing qb examples which would need only minor adjustments?
07:14 ErikSiers on rc? that i don't know. i'd have to audit them and see what's what
07:15 mischi yes, on rc.
07:16 ErikSiers anything involving terminal control would need rewriting
07:16 ErikSiers graphics also
07:16 mischi ok, such things make them separate.
07:17 ErikSiers some parts of the core language is pretty much the same -- flow control and such -- but not enough that you could easily port from one to the other
07:18 ErikSiers file i/o is essentially identical, but screen i/o is pretty different (and printer i/o too... i think)
07:18 ErikSiers microsoft has always considered them completely different products. they don't share a codebase internally
07:19 mischi yep, i just found with delphi/pascal, that the actual situation on rc is different from what i would have expected in general.
07:19 ErikSiers how so?
07:21 mischi i expected the delphi examples to have a graphical user interface, but most examples there had "AppType Console" and were actually commandline utilities, which would run under most pascals or with minimal mods.
07:22 ErikSiers interesting. i don't think i've ever seen a real-world delphi console app, only windowed
07:22 mischi actually, the nature of most rc tasks is commandline oriented.
07:22 ErikSiers true
07:24 ErikSiers looking at the vb stuff, there's only 35 tasks solved, and most of them are generic enough that it doesn't matter if there's any windows showing or not
07:24 ErikSiers (vb *can* do command-line stuff, it's just a roaring pain)
07:25 mischi i would have liked "sub-category tags".
07:25 ErikSiers meaning...?
07:26 mischi pascal includes delphi and object pascal.
07:26 mischi on the other hand some people view only ISO-Pascal as true pascal.
07:27 ErikSiers yikes
07:27 ErikSiers i suppose there are those who feel the same about ansi/iso/ecma/whatever basic, but they're rare
07:27 mischi in real life as in rc.
07:28 ErikSiers yep
07:28 ErikSiers would be nice if basic was like c, with a standard that *mattered*
07:29 mischi well, as much as i get, changing from gcc to clang shatters that view.
07:30 ErikSiers never even heard of clang, had to look it up :-)
07:31 ErikSiers with my c, i stick with either ansi or posix, depending
07:31 ErikSiers (not that i'm all that great with c, minf you)
07:31 ErikSiers *mind
07:32 mischi don't ask for my C.
07:33 mischi but it seems that quite a number of c proggers do not stick to posix and do not mind all the warnings from gcc
07:33 mischi but adhere to: as long as it works ....
07:33 ErikSiers yep
07:33 ErikSiers it all depends on what you intend to do with your code, i suppose
07:34 ErikSiers i actually target tinycc, because if it works there, it'll work ANYWHERE :-)
07:34 mischi hehe
07:34 ErikSiers ...plus, it generates small executables
07:35 mischi embedded platforms?
07:35 ErikSiers windows & linux,afaik
07:35 ErikSiers http://bellard.org/tcc/
07:35 fedaykin "TCC : Tiny C Compiler"
07:35 ErikSiers windows & unix-like systems
07:36 ErikSiers haven't tried it under systems other than win & lin, but it should work fine almost anywhere
07:37 ErikSiers neat side note: tccboot, where the compiler is part of the boot process: http://bellard.org/tcc/tccboot.html
07:37 fedaykin "TCCBOOT: TinyCC Boot Loader"
07:37 ErikSiers i'm not brave enouh to test *that*, but still... :-)
07:38 mischi interesting.
07:39 ErikSiers for a long time, i was using borland's free compiler (v5.5) but... meh
07:39 ErikSiers decided i wanted something different
08:01 mischi i actually like the works with thing.
08:02 ErikSiers ...are we back to basic and pascal? :-)
08:02 mischi sort of :-)
08:02 mischi end of my knowledge about C.
08:02 ErikSiers i've yet to notice any c code that uses [[works with]] :-)
08:02 fedaykin http://rosettacode.org/wiki/works_with (Doesn't exist.)
08:03 ErikSiers er... {{works with}}
08:03 ErikSiers hah! got no answer to that, do ya, bot?!
08:04 ErikSiers earlier tonight i had been thinking about hacking around with {{works with}}
08:05 ErikSiers because almost anything that works with qbasic will also work with freebasic, qb64, and who knows how many other compilers
08:05 ErikSiers ...and i'd kinda like rc to automagically mark a task as "completed in qb64" if it's been done in qbasic
08:06 ErikSiers ...for example
08:07 mischi yep.
08:07 mischi also helps users, looking for examples.
08:09 mischi but need to go. nice to chat with you.
08:12 ErikSiers yep
08:12 ErikSiers i'm heading off to bed myself
08:12 ErikSiers g'night all
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