Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #rosettacode, 2013-02-25

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:29 mikemol /window 12
02:38 eMBee window 12 is empty
03:10 Coderjoe window 12 is not the window you are looking for
04:59 kpreid window 12 is on fire
05:04 eMBee oh jolly, a flamewar!
05:04 TimToady people always have strong opinions about windows
05:07 eMBee oh so true...
05:08 eMBee speaking of opinions, TimToady: what's your opinion on ruby?
05:09 TimToady I recognize a lot of good features there that were borrowed from perl :)
05:09 TimToady perl 6 has borrowed a couple back...
05:10 eMBee :-)
05:14 eMBee can you give some examples of what has been borrowed back?
05:15 TimToady well, there's the everything is really an object thing
05:15 TimToady another semi-borrowed things is the way ruby uses sigils to indicate strange scoping
05:16 TimToady whereas perl uses them to indicate basic structural api
05:16 TimToady but perl 6's twigils indicate strange scoping like rubys sigils do
05:16 eMBee oh, need to read up on use of sigils in ruby
05:17 TimToady so, for instance, $*PID is a dynamic or global variable because of the *
05:17 TimToady or $*IN instead of STDIN
05:17 TimToady attributes are $.foo to indicate there's .foo accessor
05:18 TimToady or $!foo to indicate a private attribute
05:18 TimToady there are other strange kinds of scopes, $=POD is a file scope for doucmentation
05:18 TimToady $^foo is a self-declaring parameter
05:18 TimToady $<foo> is a named capture from a regex, things like that
05:19 TimToady so it's not the particular syntax that is borrowed, but the idea
05:19 TimToady otoh there are some things we specifically didn't borrow from ruby
05:20 TimToady they kinda screwed up lexical scoping, and it wil be very difficult for them to introduce gradual static typing
05:20 eMBee the examples you just gave are ruby or perl6?
05:20 TimToady p6
05:20 eMBee ok
05:21 eMBee what's wrong with lexical scoping in ruby?
05:21 TimToady oh, and compile-time constants are $?foo
05:21 TimToady there's no actual declarator, it's just first assignment
05:22 TimToady though I don't think they screwed it up as badly as python
05:23 TimToady anyway, you really need solid lexical scoping to be a multiparadigm langauge that does good function programming as well as god OO
05:23 TimToady *functional
05:23 * eMBee nods
05:23 TimToady and basically ruby went the way of making everything dynamic, which makes optimizing difficult
05:26 TimToady we also have different standards about poking methods that don't belong into classes like integers
05:32 eMBee example?
05:32 TimToady 42.times instead of using a Range object
05:33 TimToady ruby doesn't really have functions independent of classes, so all the operators end up having to be tied to some class or other
05:34 TimToady in p6, multimethods are outside of classes, they're just somewhere in the outer lexical scope
05:36 TimToady in general, in p6-land we don't think monkey-typing can scale up very well
05:36 TimToady the ruby folks are trying to fix this by making inheritance depends somewhat on your lexical scope, but this feels like a bit of a bandaid to me
05:37 eMBee hmm, i heared of monkey-patching but not monkey-typing
05:37 TimToady we call it monkey-typing to go with all the other forms of typing, such as duck
05:38 TimToady plus, it's a nice pun on a million monkeys trying to write shakespeare :)
05:38 eMBee heh
05:38 TimToady with a bit of editorial content on whether a million ruby programs can do better :)
05:41 TimToady plus, "monkey-typing" feels more like we're treating it as a systemic approach, not a fix-it-quick strategy
05:41 TimToady so we're calling a spade a shovel, as it were
05:46 eMBee but doesn't treating it as a systemic approach elevate its status? fix-it-quick sounds more like something that i'd rather use less or only when really needed
05:48 eMBee we need a new joke on with a million monkeys about perl and ruby (there is one on perl and javas)
05:48 eMBee java
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14:48 GlitchMr I would like to add "friendly interactive shell" (http://fishshell.com/) language. I guess I should make a separate language for it, as it isn't Bourne-compatible compatible.
14:48 GlitchMr Bourne-compatible.*
14:57 eMBee yeah, fish is definetly a seperate language
14:57 * eMBee is using fish too
14:58 eMBee but not for scripting
14:59 GlitchMr Well, considering that "C Shell" also has separate language page, I guess it's fine.
15:01 GlitchMr "To help protect against automated page creation, please type the two words you see in the box below: "
15:01 GlitchMr Why :-(.
15:05 GlitchMr Also, I have a small question. You see, Rosetta Code has esoteric language called "Fish". Its examples use <lang fish>.
15:05 GlitchMr What <lang> should friendly interactive shell use?
15:09 GlitchMr Perhaps <lang friendlyinteractiveshell>, but that's way more verbose than any language on this site.
15:09 GlitchMr I'll go with <lang friendly>, but not sure.
15:10 mwn3d_phone GlitchMr: its not supported by our syntax highlighter so you can just pick something that makes sense
15:10 mwn3d_phone It will basically treat the tags like pre tags
15:10 GlitchMr I know, but still.
15:14 eMBee fishshell?
15:14 GlitchMr I like this idea
15:15 GlitchMr Why I haven't through of it before.
15:15 eMBee the website is fishshell.org (althouygh i wish they'd taken shellfish.org ;-)
15:28 mwn3d_phone fedaykin: you don't recognize .orgs? There was fishshell.com up there.
15:28 fedaykin "fish shell"
15:28 mwn3d_phone Hmm...maybe the perentheses threw it off
15:31 eMBee .com is the site, .org is lost, got some japanese stuff on it
15:50 Coderjoe why the captcha? it says right on the tin: "to help protect against automated page creation" (aka spambots creating pages)
15:51 Coderjoe I haven't made changes on the wiki in awhile, but I think that goes away once you have logged in with a verified-by-email account
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16:09 GlitchMr Coderjoe, except I verified my account by e-mail 2 years ago.
16:13 Coderjoe oh
16:19 mwn3d_phone I forget the rules that were set up
16:20 mwn3d_phone mikemol would know
16:23 GlitchMr "Your e-mail address was authenticated on 14 May 2011 at 10:01."
16:23 GlitchMr Well, not exactly 2 years, but whatever.
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20:52 mikemol GlitchMr: Spammers have added email authentication to their automation suite at this point. That's why even email-authenticated users hit captchas for some purposes.
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22:01 mwn3d_phone 2^7 solutions away from 30k
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