Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #rosettacode, 2014-01-10

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05:00 eMBee ivanshmakov: that's exasctly what i meant. relicensing from GNU FDL to CC BY-SAwas allowed for a limited time a few years ago. rosettacode missed that time. it is to late now.
05:03 eMBee i agree with your second point. rc could require both from now on. the dificulty then is to know which code does have both licenses, and which doesn't. that needs to be solved i think, before any such rule can be implemented. or at least it needs to be made clear to future contributors that while they contribute with both licenses, for now they are only allowed to use code under the FDL
05:05 eMBee for starters i'd ask everyone if they agree to a license change, then track each user who agreed with a tag or category. (category of users who agreed to relicense) then over time we can find out who has yet to agree, and hunt them down.
05:08 eMBee but then comes the hard part. for any contributor not found, we'd need to find out if their contribution is still there, or if it has been rewritten anyways. i don't know if mediawiki provides tools to do that. for any user that can't be found, their code needs to be marked and eventually replaced. (that would be the last step, once we know how much of it there is.)
05:09 eMBee squeak managed to do that, they hunted down all contributors from the last 20 years and removed or rewrote remaining bits
05:10 eMBee mikemol: what do you think?
05:10 eMBee it might take some time, but it might be possible
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09:34 ivanshmakov eMBee: Those /contributing/ the code can use the code they contribute under any license (provided that they didn’t take the code from anywhere else in the first place.) Those interested in using the code can look at history to check if it was added after the licensing change.
09:36 ivanshmakov (Although I’d argue that both GNU FDL and CC BY-SA are poor choices when it comes to the code /re-use/ (as opposed to copying it between educational resources, etc.)
09:40 ivanshmakov eMBee: ISTR that there were tools (either MediaWiki extensions or external) to build a list of “significant” contributors. I’m unsure if these tools could handle the cases code is moved within or (worse) across the pages, or when it’s re-indented or otherwise “slightly” modified. But given that MediaWiki has a documented API (as in: /w/api.php), it’s certainly not hopeless a task.
09:41 ivanshmakov eMBee: Still, adding a requirement for new contributions to be both CC BY-SA and GNU FDL 1.2 /or later/ seems like a task long overdue.
09:45 eMBee mikemol is the principal person to discuss this with, i am just sharing my opinion as a user.
09:48 eMBee poor choice of license is an interestng point to consider though. is CC BY-SA gpl compatible?
09:52 ttmrichter Personally I think there's something comically arrogant about people insisting on licensing tiny code fragments.
09:53 ttmrichter "If you use my for loop that counts from 99 to 0 and prints beer bottles I'll sue!"
09:53 eMBee ttmrichter: the problem is that the absence of a license means no rights at all.
09:54 ttmrichter I know.  I just think that a lot of coders are pretty full of themselves.
09:54 eMBee as i just learned, in europe, copyright does not even have fair use rights
09:54 ttmrichter [citation needed]
09:59 eMBee sorry, the source i have is german
10:00 * ttmrichter can read German,.
10:02 eMBee it's a video: http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2013/​30C3_-_5433_-_de_-_saal_6_-_201312291715_​-_recht_auf_remix_-_leonhard_dobusch.html
10:04 ttmrichter From the blurb underneath it sounds like they're talking about remixes, etc.
10:04 ttmrichter Which aren't covered by fair use in the USA either.
10:07 eMBee yes, but the talk mentions that europe does not even have fair use
10:07 eMBee there is more here: http://www.ivir.nl/publications/huge​nholtz/Fair%20Use%20Report%20PUB.pdf
10:08 eMBee "While fair use in Europe is often regarded as an ox
10:08 eMBee ooops
10:09 eMBee "While fair use in Europe is often regarded as an oxymoron or even a taboo in classic author’s rights doctrine, the idea of introducing a measure of flexibility in the European system of circumscribed limitations and exceptions is gradually taking shape."
10:09 ttmrichter Ah, there's nothing *called* "fair use" in Europe.  The approach taken is different.  There are specific exceptions to copyright, exceptions which basically match the way "fair use" is generally interpreted.
10:10 ttmrichter The only difference is that the exceptions are specifically enumerated.
10:11 ttmrichter So it's "not permitted unless explicitly permitted" vs. the American model of "permitted unless someone with deeper pockets than yours can bully you into the dust in court".
10:11 eMBee well, i am not sure that there are enough exceptions
10:11 ttmrichter Personally I prefer the model of "you know what's OK" rather than "suck it and see".
10:11 ttmrichter LAWYERS probably prefer the "suck it and see" model because they get a lot more money that way.
10:13 eMBee hmm, that's one perspective. i think the permissive way is easier to adapt to changes in the way we do things, whereas a fixed list requires a law change every time there is a new way to use works
10:15 ttmrichter The problem is that it's not a "permissive" approach.  It's a "plutocratic" approach.
10:15 ttmrichter Those who have money have the protection.
10:16 eMBee page 8 second paragraph of that pdf explains that too
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11:02 ivanshmakov eMBee: AIUI, CC BY-SA is not compatible with GNU GPL. But neither is GNU FDL.
11:04 ivanshmakov Also to note is that sufficiently short code fragments may not be copyrightable at all, which means “anyone has all the rights,” irrespective what the “author” says.
11:07 eMBee that's what we just discussed. that is true for the fair use law in the US, but not for europe. we'd need to check if there is an exception for short code fragments
11:07 ivanshmakov That being said, I’d prefer the authors to explicitly disclaim copyright (as in: CC0) on any trivial code they publish. This avoids the issue with the cases with adoption of the said code by corporations, and in particular when the addition of any new code to a project is supervised by a party which doesn’t want to delve into any “copyrightability” issues.
11:08 * eMBee nods
11:09 eMBee the point is rather, once there are only a few users left without permission, we can look at their contribution and decide if it issmall enough to not count...
11:09 ivanshmakov eMBee: Copyright protection is only granted for /creative/ works (that’s pretty much the definition of the term), so anything that can be proved as /non-creative/ (short, obvious, or otherwise) will not be subject to the copyright law.
11:09 ivanshmakov (FWIW, I doubt that anyone could claim a copyright on a wall painted white.)
11:09 eMBee sure, but that proof is rather hard (or expensive)
11:10 eMBee you'd be surprised
11:10 ivanshmakov eMBee: Indeed, tracking contributions is important.
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12:45 ttmrichter ivanshmakov: To Hell with CC0.  WTFPL for the win.
12:45 ttmrichter The *only* truly free license out there: http://www.wtfpl.net/
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13:24 ivanshmakov ttmrichter: Care to explain the details of WTFPL to Russian government agencies? They became rather restrictive on the copyright matters in the recent years. (And they may request a translation of the license into Russian for legal purposes, BTW.)
13:24 ttmrichter It's a one-sentence license.
13:25 ttmrichter I'm pretty sure anybody could translate that in a few minutes if they have even half an inkling of Russian.
13:26 ttmrichter "You just DO WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT TO."
13:26 ttmrichter That's the terms of the license, in all their glory.  :)
13:27 ivanshmakov ttmrichter: Well, it also has a caption…
13:27 ttmrichter Far simpler than any other license out there.
13:27 ttmrichter Make it ten minutes instead of five.
13:30 ivanshmakov ttmrichter: I’d rather welcome someone else to do the translation, for there’s a specific idiom that I know of no way to translate precisely into Russian. (Yes, it’s possible to reproduce the /spirit/ of the license, but I’m as of yet unsure if that’d be enough for legal purposes.)
13:31 ttmrichter Sure it is.  By the very terms of the WTFPL you can relicense at will.
13:31 ttmrichter So just write an equivalent license in Russian and relicense under the Russian version.
13:40 ivanshmakov ttmrichter: That becomes a bit circular. Surely you can relicense the work by the terms of WTFPL. But in order to do so /in Russia,/ you need a copy of the license /in Russian./ (A notarially certified translation, to be precise.)
13:41 ttmrichter So get one.  Really, it's a dirt-simple license.  If you can translate the gobbledegook that is GPL, something that is literally one or two orders of magnitude simpler can't be a problem.
13:41 ttmrichter If it is, shoot your lawyers and start over.
13:41 ivanshmakov (That being said, I don’t seem to see a Russian translation for the CC0 Public Domain dedication anywhere at https://creativecommons.org/, either.)
13:41 ivanshmakov ttmrichter: Sounds sensible.
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17:47 Hypftier ivanshmakov: https://creativecommons.org/p​ublicdomain/zero/1.0/deed.ru?
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18:34 ivanshmakov Hypftier: It’s its “deed,” not the “legal code.”
18:35 Hypftier ah
18:35 Hypftier There doesn't appear to be any translation of the legal code for CC0
18:36 ivanshmakov Hypftier: Yes.
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