Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #salt, 2014-10-18

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03:49 fannet What would be the best way to edit xml in a file in salt .. file.sed?
03:49 fannet <tag>change this value</tag>
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04:01 fannet yep that worked.
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04:34 crocket hey guys
04:35 crocket Are there good tools to provision physical/virtual servers and do configuration management using salt?
04:35 crocket Foreman is a maturing tool, but it comes with only chef and puppet.
04:40 timoguin crocket: there's a new salt plugin for foreman
04:40 timoguin haven't used it though
04:40 crocket A new salt plugin
04:40 crocket "Salt Stack is an open-source cloud deployment, configuration management, remote execution & monitoring package."
04:41 crocket Looks like SaltStack is similar to foreman except that SaltStack doesn't seem to support libvirt and physical servers.
04:42 timoguin there is libvirt support actually. currently no support for easily provisioning baremetal servers though
04:43 crocket timoguin, Where do I find SaltStack?
04:43 crocket It's quite confusing
04:43 crocket What is SaltStack?
04:45 crocket timoguin, Can you refer me to libvirt support?
04:45 timoguin here's the main documentation: http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/
04:45 timoguin and cloud controller docs: http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/topics/tutorials/cloud_controller.html
04:48 crocket Oh yeah...
04:48 crocket timoguin, Is halite the official web UI for salt?
04:50 crocket By the way, I don't like absolute path policy much.
04:50 crocket If salt insists on absolute paths, it can't deal with NixOS.
04:50 crocket NixOs is all about stateless system packages which may be installed in random paths.
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05:48 crane can someone tell me why line 23 is not avaiable in my states? https://dpaste.de/X7DE
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06:37 babilen crane: You shouldn't use "lookup" there. Just drop that level. The whole thing is called a "lookup" table and you use a :lookup: entry in your pillar to overwrite values in that table (if necessary)
06:38 crane babilen: good morning :) hmm. i thought that would be default since i saw this in a lot of formulas?
06:42 babilen crane: You can find many examples of working map.jinja files on https://github.com/saltstack-formulas and the general structure should look like: https://www.refheap.com/91942
06:42 crocket Can I avoid absolute paths in salt?
06:43 babilen crocket: Absolute paths where? You cannot, for example, specify only a relative path for a file you want to manage.
06:44 crocket I wish salt was provided with $prefix variable.
06:44 crocket $prefix could be /usr or /usr/awgawe452352/
06:44 babilen The prefix is "/" -- but *where* do you want to get rid of absolute paths?
06:45 crane babilen: ah i see what you mean. but this still does not solves my problem about that salt doesnt find my variable in his dict object :/
06:46 babilen crane: Could you paste your fixed map.jinja, the way you access it and the exact error please?
06:46 crane babilen: jup, give me a sec
06:46 crocket babilen, I could specify paths relative to $prefix.
06:47 babilen crocket: I mean you can easily write something like https://www.refheap.com/91943
06:49 babilen crocket: Whatfor? What are you trying to achieve, what are you forced to do now and why is that problematic. If you want to specify file locations in a filesystem you have to, ultimately, work with absolutely paths. How should salt know what you are referring to?
06:50 crane babilen: https://www.refheap.com/91945, if i remove that line and default section in my init.sls it renders fine
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06:52 babilen crane: Where is the "settings" idea there coming from and why don't you simply do what you do there in the sls directly?
06:53 crane babilen: i forked the original ntp-formula https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/ntp-formula
06:53 crane there is the settings idea coming from
06:54 babilen I don't think it works that way. On Debian you get the value after "'Debian':" and that is *it*. If you want to refer to "settings" in there you would have to do something like https://www.refheap.com/91946 -- but then those don't belong in the map.jinja, but simply in a pillar.
06:55 babilen I don't see any "settings" in https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/ntp-formula/blob/master/ntp/map.jinja
06:56 babilen It is true that people come up with all sorts of ways to get around having to specify default values for *pillars* somewhere else than in the pillar.get call itself, but what you are doing there is not working.
06:56 crane babilen: it's in ntp.ng https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/ntp-formula/blob/master/ntp/ng/map.jinja
06:56 crane well... if you run this formula with ntp.ng it is working... ^^'
06:58 babilen crane: Okay .. I don't agree with the design choices in there, but if you import that it should give you a map with two keys {'lookup': {...}, 'settings': {...}} where the first is also selected based on os_family
06:59 babilen In which case, I guess, you want to keep the "lookup" in there. You should have referenced your inspiration or explained what you are doing as that approach is far from common. :)
07:00 crane i'm sorry, didn't know that this is far from common
07:00 crane do you know a formula which is common and following common approaches where i can learn from?
07:01 babilen hehe
07:01 crane still digging deeper and deeper into it but yet not a single state is finished ^^
07:01 babilen Why don't you start with something simply and then built something complex on top of that?
07:02 babilen But let me see. Do you want to be able to specify default values for those that you define in a pillar in a single place?
07:02 crane that be greate
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07:06 babilen heh
07:06 babilen There is no general approach there which is exactly why you see so many different things like the one you are using there. It is still curious that it is not working. Do you also define a pillar for that?
07:08 babilen https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/mysql-formula/blob/master/mysql/defaults.yaml + https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/mysql-formula/blob/master/mysql/database.sls is one approach I like
07:10 crane thx dude, i will dig into it :)
07:10 crocket babilen, Have you ever looked into NixOs?
07:11 crocket It doesn't follow file hierarchy standard but generates random paths each time you install a new app.
07:11 crocket How would salt manage NixOs?
07:11 babilen crocket: What is the actual problem you want to solve?
07:12 crocket babilen, well, I want a web interface that provisions virtual machines and does configuration management on those machines.
07:12 crocket I'm finding puzzle pieces.
07:12 babilen crocket: And what is the actual problem with relative/absolute paths you are trying to solve?
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07:12 crocket babilen, In case of NixOs, salt would be confused.
07:13 crocket Because you can't predict absolute paths in NixOs.
07:13 babilen crane: I don't quite find a formula that exhibits the "get_config" jinja macro approach that I also saw.
07:14 crane babilen: salt rocks but in some parts it is way to complex
07:14 babilen crocket: Okay, I don't know if that is the case or not, but lets assume, just for the sake of the argument, that it is. So once again: What *actual* problem are you trying to solve right now?
07:15 crocket babilen, The end goal is to get a web interface that provisions VMs and manages their configurations.
07:15 crocket Foreman does the job, but it is heavily tied to puppet.
07:15 crocket Puppet I'd like to avoid for now.
07:15 babilen crane: I wouldn't say that is the case. It is just that you insist on keeping your default values *in one place* rather than specifying them in a single one. There is simply no direct functionality for that yet so people start to implement that (in different ways) in jinja.
07:16 babilen crocket: And in which state are you having problems to manage a file? Could you paste that state and tell me what you would like to see changed in there?
07:17 crocket babilen, I'm at a speculation stage where nothing is real for now.
07:17 crocket babilen, Can you recommend an alternative to foreman that works with salt or ansible?
07:18 babilen no
07:19 babilen There is a salt plugin for foreman though and salt can read data from foreman via an external pillar: https://github.com/theforeman/foreman_salt/wiki + http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/ref/pillar/all/salt.pillar.foreman.html
07:21 babilen crocket: But you plan to manage NixOs with that or why do you think that you should care?
07:21 babilen You just have to have *some* specific idea about what you want to do.
07:21 crocket babilen, Is foreman_salt useable?
07:21 crocket babilen, I probably won't use NixOs in the foreseeable future.
07:21 babilen I am aware of its existance and it is active, but I cannot answer that question.
07:22 babilen crocket: So why do you care if you can support it right now?
07:22 crocket babilen, I care because NixOs looks cool and I may use it in future.
07:23 babilen And that being said: files have to have a single, unique and unambigous identifier. There can't be "relative" paths per-se as those would either be, in all but name, be absolute paths again or you would have clashes.
07:25 babilen So the question no longer is: "Can salt work with relative paths?" (it can't as you have to have an unambigious identifier) but rather "How can salt find the prefix that has to be used in a state?". The latter is solvable.
07:25 babilen But then I have no idea if the salt client would actually work on NixOs
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07:29 crane babilen: thx for helping. i will come back later or tomorow with new questions ;)
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07:37 babilen crane: I would simply browse through a number of formulas and draw inspirations from them. A discussion on the mailing list would also be good as we might be able to figure out *one* good way and then include that in the best practices documentation
07:38 babilen crane: I'm still not quite sure why your code didn't work though. Do you define a pillar?
07:39 babilen I should probably fire up a VM, but I'll finish my tea now and head out soon.
07:39 crocket Has anyone used foreman_salt? Is it useable?
07:40 babilen I'd ask that in #theforeman
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09:08 evidence hmm.. anyone else seeing file.blockreplace in rc4 readd content on each run?
09:10 evidence bah my mistake.. marker end is matching on the content addition. phail.
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09:14 babilen s/phail/classic ;)
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09:16 evidence i'm not the first? ;)
09:17 babilen I guess that somebody else can claim prior art, yeah
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12:16 johtso Is salt-ssh not supposed to be able to custom minion grains?
12:17 johtso *able to see
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13:37 winmutt user=mysql maybe?
13:37 winmutt er
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14:55 adria11 hello I have a question regarding state.sls files
14:56 adria11 I want to put the ip address of the master,
14:57 adria11 ah...should have looked closer in the grains of the minion
14:57 adria11 salt minion1 grains.item master
14:57 adria11 awesome, Thanks
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15:02 babilen heh
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15:18 crocket Can salt handle provisioning of a physical/virtual server?
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15:26 crocket Only virtual servers?
15:26 crocket Can salt provision libvirt VMs?
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15:31 xmj salt-cloud can do all sorts of magic
15:33 crocket xmj : I'm not sure salt-cloud supports libvirt.
15:33 babilen salt-virt does
15:34 babilen What are you trying to do?
15:34 babilen (or is this still hypothetical?)
15:34 crocket babilen, no
15:34 crocket babilen, Does salt-virt provision libvirt VMs?
15:35 babilen That is what I just said
15:35 crocket As far as the documentation goes, salt-virt doesn't seem to provision libvirt VMs.
15:35 babilen How so?
15:35 crocket babilen, The documentation is only vague.
15:36 crocket babilen, http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/topics/tutorials/cloud_controller.html
15:36 babilen http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/ref/modules/all/salt.modules.virt.html is not, but you are probably referring to http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/topics/virt/disk.html et al
15:36 babilen I am talking about salt-virt
15:37 crocket babilen, Does halite come with salt virt UI?
15:37 babilen halite is dead
15:37 crocket Huh
15:37 crocket What isn't
15:38 babilen salt isn't, I am not, I'd hope that you are not dead either
15:39 crocket It seems salt is without Web UI for now.
15:40 crocket babilen, http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/ref/modules/all/salt.modules.virt.html doesn't tell me anything useful about provisioning.
15:40 crocket It's mostly lifecycle management and inspection.
15:41 manfred crocket: http://docs.saltstack.com/en/latest/topics/tutorials/cloud_controller.html#using-salt-virt
15:42 crocket manfred, It briefly mentions "Seeding the VMs involves setting pre-authenticated Salt keys on the new VM and if needed, will install the Salt Minion on the new VM before it is started."
15:42 crocket hmm.....
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15:46 crocket Does salt have a viable web interface?
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15:50 manfred the enterprise version supposedly does, but never used it
15:50 manfred and i have never used halite so I have no idea, but that was the plan for it
15:56 crocket I want to monitor physical/virtual servers and salt.
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16:07 crocket Can salt manage configurations of systems well?
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16:17 winmutt how?
16:17 winmutt in what way?
16:17 winmutt i mean i use it to manage my app configs etc
16:17 winmutt and u can manager users
16:17 winmutt etc
16:17 winmutt rtfm
16:20 crocket winmutt, Your attitude is not helpful
16:20 crocket I heard ansible wasn't good for configuring systems.
16:20 crocket Probably because of its imperative nature?
16:23 crocket Is salt declarative?
16:24 Setsuna666 crocket: Yes it is
16:24 Gareth crocket: what are you trying to do with Salt specifically?  Some examples of what you're hoping to do might allow us to offer more contructive answers :)
16:25 Setsuna666 crocket: It is, great at configuring systems and declarative
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16:26 Setsuna666 crocket: But like Gareth said, we could help you more if we understood your needs
16:29 Setsuna666 crocket: For example, we are using Salt to provision, configure and manage our entire Cloud infrastructure, not everything is automated yet, but for now, we can (Install the services, configure them for each VMs) and want to further automate it in the future with Salt Cloud up to the point of deploying the VMs via Salt
16:31 Setsuna666 crocket: For services, we are using HAProxy, Apache2, MariaDB, Memcached, Bind9 and all are configured with Salt, there isn't anything beside the initial VM setup (Cloning a VM template, booting it, configuring its IPs and Salt Minion) that is not automated.
16:32 crocket Setsuna666, How do you provision machines via salt?
16:32 babilen crocket: IRC really works better for solving actual problems. I have no idea what you are doing right now, but you seem to be reading up on different systems and seem to have some incoherent questions regarding them. It *really* helps people to be as precise about what you are trying to achieve *right now* as you can.
16:33 crocket Salt isn't a machinery that provides control over TFTP, DHCP, and DNS by default.
16:33 Setsuna666 By provision, I mean, installing its services and different services configuration, you still need to install an actual base OS
16:34 crocket Setsuna666, That's part of configuration management.
16:34 crocket By provision, I mean installing an actual OS and the following configuration management.
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16:35 Setsuna666 crocket: Yeah, exactly. If you are looking at provisionning servers from bare metal, it would be doable, by creating a live CD environment with a pre-installed Salt Minion.
16:35 crocket Setsuna666, Cobbler and foreman would be much better suited for that.
16:36 Setsuna666 crocket: Yeah, of course, but for our needs we don't need that kind of stuff
16:36 Setsuna666 crocket: Since we are mostly using VMs
16:36 crocket Setsuna666, public clouds?
16:37 crocket Setsuna666, Thou still need to provision OS for VMs.
16:38 crocket Setsuna666, Let's define provisioning as setting up an OS until salt is set up.
16:38 Setsuna666 crocket: Not public cloud, we are using OVH and rent dedicated server, since we want that level of control. Yes, we do need to provision the OS for the dedicated servers, but OVH as a way of automating the OS installation and bootstraping the Salt Minion installation, so that is why we don't need other alternative
16:38 winmutt could even be assemling hardware
16:39 Setsuna666 crocket: since OVH has a way*
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16:40 crocket Setsuna666, What is OVH?
16:40 crocket OVH, a french company?
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16:41 Setsuna666 crocket: They are a server hosting company based in Europe, but recently opened a data center in Quebec, Canada
16:42 collyP Hey Guys - noticing some strange behaviour using schedule/ when. A simple uptime when schedule will continually spawn jobs:
16:43 collyP schedule:
16:43 collyP uptime
16:43 collyP function: status.uptime, when: - Saturday 11:34am
16:43 collyP (sorry formatting not good)
16:44 collyP schedule:
16:44 collyP uptime:
16:45 collyP function: status.uptime
16:45 collyP when:
16:45 collyP - Saturday 11:45am
16:45 collyP generates:
16:45 collyP lots! seconds: 10 works perfectly fine
16:48 collyP [root@PNY4-TCX-DEV-1 ~]# salt --version
16:48 collyP salt 2014.1.10 (Hydrogen)
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17:04 crocket Setsuna666, Can salt be used to provision physical servers?
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17:07 Setsuna666 crocket: The simple answer is no. Since, there isn't anything built-in Salt to provide that feature, you would have to make a custom setup with TFTP, PXE and a custom live CD with the Salt Minion installed. It is not impossible to do, but would need some efforts to achieve that..
17:09 crocket Setsuna666, The fact that I have to them manually is a turn-off.
17:09 crocket s/to them/to do them/
17:11 Setsuna666 crocket: Salt is quite a new software, so it has time to mature.
17:11 Setsuna666 Not saying that provising will be added, but it could be if someone is interested enough in that feature to develop it.
17:11 goodwill crocket: if it helps, puppet, chef, ansible and CFEngine do not do it either
17:12 Setsuna666 goodwill: I believe Puppet has Razor ? (Unless its still in development stage)
17:12 goodwill there is like puppet foreman
17:13 goodwill but thats technically puppet with some puppet
17:13 goodwill not the other way around
17:13 goodwill hmmm
17:13 goodwill did not know about razor
17:14 goodwill foreman though is super PITA to setup
17:14 Setsuna666 Yeah, looked at Foreman in the past and didn't like what I saw
17:14 Setsuna666 It seems too big for nothing
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17:15 goodwill pretty much
17:15 goodwill there is like OneClickKick
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17:16 goodwill it does not handle preseed
17:17 goodwill also never really seen anyone use it
17:17 goodwill there is FAI too
17:19 goodwill which I think does not do PXE
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17:19 crocket goodwill, When did you use foreman?
17:20 goodwill well I tried about 3 months back
17:20 crocket Foreman became quite straightforward to use with libvirt if you use only "bridge" networks in libvirt.
17:20 goodwill I dunno
17:20 Setsuna666 crocket: When talking about provisioning, I'm talking about bare-metal, so physical servers. Salt Cloud, which is still new, allows you to deploy, manage and provision VMs for different Cloud providers
17:20 crocket However, Foreman doesn't let you configure video model and cache mechanism in libvirt.
17:20 goodwill it was integrating with puppet it wanted puppet things
17:20 goodwill it was needlessly complex
17:20 goodwill at least for my needs
17:21 crocket goodwill, Now, it has 2 months old foreman_salt module.
17:21 redline6561 Hey folks. New user playing with salt-ssh 2014.7rc4. Can run raw commands on my server, test.ping dies with traceback ending in "ImportError: cannot import name CertificateError". Googling hasn't turned up much. Any ideas?
17:21 crocket As far as I heard, foreman_salt works.
17:21 redline6561 It's python 2.7.3 on the target, so ssl lib is present but CertificateError is indeed absent.
17:22 goodwill crocket: I do not know if that cancels out the fact that foreman was too complex
17:22 crocket goodwill, well...
17:22 crocket goodwill, Foreman assumes many things I don't want to deal with.
17:23 crocket It requires FQDN.
17:23 crocket It requires subnets.
17:23 crocket It requires an IP address for each managed host.
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17:24 crocket It is too opioniated.
17:24 crocket opioninated
17:25 crocket It's like twitter bootstrap on provisioning arena.
17:27 collyP never mind, schedule: when is broken in hydrogen, fixed in helium. #15396
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17:32 goodwill basepi: so salt-web is dead, halite is an abandoned nightmare of software ... what gives
17:34 basepi I haven't been involved in any of those, so I'm not sure. You might ping pass_by_value if you can catch him on, he's much more involved in our UI efforts.
17:35 goodwill basepi: who is pass_by_value?
17:36 basepi His name is Adi, he's one of our engineers (out of New York)
17:36 goodwill ah
17:36 goodwill what about the dude who wrote halite?
17:36 goodwill basepi: ^
17:36 basepi Well, Adi has been very involved there. Who else are you thinking about?
17:37 goodwill I think it was someone Utah based
17:37 goodwill Sam
17:38 basepi I think Sam might have worked on it briefly but he's on RAET r&d these days.
17:38 goodwill I see
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17:38 basepi I'm honestly not sure what the status of Halite is. Pretty sure salt-web is abandoned though.
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17:38 goodwill basepi: not to be rude but I looked at halite code back when it started and I had nightmares
17:38 basepi Hahaha
17:39 goodwill basepi: I could not set it up and I had difficulty understanding its flow
17:39 goodwill maybe I am stupid
17:39 basepi I wouldn't know. I've never actually looked at the code.
17:39 goodwill but I think Sam needs to take some programming classes
17:39 basepi I'm very much core-salt focused. Not enough time to branch out much.
17:39 goodwill PhD or no
17:40 * basepi shrugs
17:40 goodwill *shrugs back*
17:41 goodwill basepi: what is RAET?
17:41 goodwill Reliable Asynchronous Event Transport Protocol
17:41 goodwill omg
17:41 goodwill is this some reinvention of TCP on top of UDP?
17:42 goodwill basepi: how exactly is something based on top of UDP reliable? unless it does what TCP does?
17:43 basepi Not a reinvention. Reliable UDP doesn't necessarily mean TCP. But yes, it's our new experimental transport system shipping with 2014.7
17:43 basepi It does similar things, but following the exact TCP spec is not the only way to get reliability.
17:43 goodwill so you are abandoning ZMQ
17:44 basepi Nope. ZMQ will likely be supported forever.
17:44 goodwill how exactly does one make a reliable protocol on top of UDP without duplicating most of what TCP does to ensure transmission?
17:45 basepi I haven't had time to deep-dive the RAET code, so I can't really comment on the details. It uses many of the same systems.
17:45 basepi Similar to TCP, but not the same.
17:46 goodwill basepi: so what is the benefit?
17:47 basepi Mostly transparency, and our own additional features and integrations. ZMQ is great, but when things go wrong it's very hard to debug because it doesn't provide much transparency.
17:48 basepi RAET is much closer to the application level, giving us more control and transparency, and allowing us to build features we want right in.
17:49 goodwill basepi: okie ... but ZMQ took years to build and make reliable ... building protocols is not a simple matter
17:49 basepi Agreed. But I'll ask you to defer judgment until you've tried it. Preliminary reports are very promising.
17:50 basepi And we're not abandoning ZMQ. RAET is completely optional, and I doubt that will ever change.
17:51 goodwill well salt-web and halite got abandoned, so you can maybe see where I am coming from
17:52 basepi I understand that you're frustrated. However, next time I would recommend cooling down first. You've been antagonistic from the first message to me this morning. Not a good way to get people to help you.
17:53 goodwill oh I am sorry, I did not mean to be antagonistic to you ... I just wondered about some things
17:53 basepi Sorry, maybe I'm overreacting as well. IRC is very tone-deaf
17:54 basepi Anyway, I'll see if I can get a better idea of our future plans for Halite and the UI in general when I'm back in the office on Monday
17:54 goodwill it just been more confusing honestly
17:54 goodwill kinda lost the understanding of direction of salt
17:54 basepi But I will say, we're actually really excited about RAET -- it's looking very cool, and we're excited for more people to try it once 2014.7 is released.
17:55 basepi How so? Nothing has really changed about our direction. We're still trying to figure out the UI thing, we're not abandoning ZMQ -- the project is still the same, though we're frantically trying to hire people to keep up with the issue tracker.
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17:58 goodwill basepi: well having 2 salty web ui's start and just kinda disappear was disconcerning
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17:59 basepi Agreed.
17:59 goodwill also our attempt to smoothly upgrade up on salt kept breaking most things
17:59 goodwill we been on salt for a long time
17:59 goodwill longer them most people
17:59 goodwill so we have quite a few things
18:00 goodwill but next version upgrades have been unsuccessful due bugs and the fact that it is so hard to debug yaml and salt states
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18:01 basepi Yep, we've had some regression issues. We expect them to be much less starting with 2014.7. We have a new merging workflow to keep the branch more up to date, and also have a growing QA team and manual testing process which should also help.
18:01 basepi I'm more confident in our upcoming 2014.7.0 release than I have in a feature release in a long time.
18:01 goodwill basepi: we could not move from 0.16.4 honestly to 0.17.x and I tried several times
18:02 goodwill we are going to do way more ServerSpec before we try again
18:02 * basepi tries to remember 0.16-0.17 migration issues. It's been a long time
18:02 basepi Sorry you've been having a rough time of it.
18:02 basepi Hopefully next time you upgrade it will be smoother.
18:02 goodwill so as you can imagine we can move to later version
18:02 goodwill I think
18:03 goodwill anyhow
18:03 goodwill its been a lot of frustration
18:03 goodwill are there any better lint? debug tools in the pipeline?
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18:03 basepi Yes, we very much want to implement SLS linting and debugging features.
18:04 basepi We're just short on engineering time at the moment -- many of our core engineers have had to perform professional services while we work on building out that team.
18:04 basepi We're stretched thin at the moment, but are actively working to hire to alleviate that problem
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18:16 WesleyL basepi: hiring remotely?
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18:16 basepi WesleyL: I know we're leaning towards local, but we do hire remote as well.
18:18 WesleyL okay, thanks
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22:09 evidence hunted around and didn't find anything.. has anyone made a request for maintaining timestamps on files managed by the master?
22:10 honestly evidence: what do you mean by that?
22:10 evidence maintain timestamps as they exist on the master for file.managed and file.recurse for example
22:11 evidence obviously it would have to be a file root.. as github etc don't maintain them
22:11 honestly ah
22:12 honestly seems quite likely that nobody has needed that yet
22:12 evidence just a nice to have i guess.. it's just nice for example knowing when a conf was last edited, rather than last placed.  ie as machines come up they will all have vastly differing timestamps
22:14 evidence imagining if it was added as a feature that it'd just be extra metadata pushed out with the file.. much like i'm sure the options (modes etc) you set are
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