Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #webwork, 2012-05-16

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:29 aubreyja joined #webwork
19:04 tbflowers joined #webwork
19:05 tbflowers Hello.  I have a quick question about a local install.  Is anyone available?
19:27 mgage_ hi -- just back from school -- what's up?
19:28 mgage_ tbflowers: hi
19:29 tbflowers hi mike
19:30 mgage_ hi tim -- what's up?
19:30 tbflowers i got a message from someone who attended one of my WeBWorK demos .... they needed to know how much room a webwork install would take on a server in their proposal for their IT people .... and i didn't know
19:33 mgage_ the webwork software itself takes up very little space.  and the extra CPAN modules don't take up much either.
19:34 mgage_ looking at our set up there is about .5Gig for the software  and about 1.3Gig for the courses for the last 5 years or so
19:35 tbflowers ok ... does the .5 gig include the NPL?
19:36 mgage_ I see 6 Gigs for the entire webwork directory -- which several versions of NPL, and software -- hang on I'll get the NPL figure
19:36 mgage_ NPL is .3 Gig
19:37 tbflowers thank you.   I will pass it along.
19:37 mgage_ probably the most useful addition is to beef up the amount of RAM -- that makes webwork run faster.
19:51 tbflowers OK.  I sent the message.  Thank you for the help!
20:13 aubreyja_ joined #webwork
20:14 mgage_ hi
20:14 aubreyja_ Hi - just finished last presentation
20:14 aubreyja_ on copyright.
20:14 mgage_ how did it go?
20:15 aubreyja_ Good, it was me, our deputy provost, and a lawyer from our general council office
20:15 aubreyja_ :0
20:15 mgage_ is there anything to say on copyright that holds up? -- my view is that nearly everyone -- including lawyers --a re confused
20:15 aubreyja_ That's right - they even admitted that they're largely guessing about things often
20:16 aubreyja_ I did briefly explain to the lawyer about webwork problems and ask what she thought
20:16 mgage_ and?
20:17 aubreyja_ She said that it  if they are derivative works that are "substantially based on" copyrighted material then they are copyrighted
20:18 aubreyja_ She did say however that if a company funds someone to create the problems then they are giving an implicitt license to use them
20:18 mgage_ ok -- that's worth remembering.  And I suspect that it applies to the more interesting exercises (for example I'm a little more worried about Ross's probability problems than about stewart's stuff)
20:19 mgage_ I think we have pretty explicit use of stewart's 4th edition problems -- plus almost all of them can be traced back through Thomas
20:20 mgage_ the harvard-calculus stuff we have explicit permission for.  given at some level of the organization. :-)
20:20 aubreyja_ Also, she did say that judges often don't know what to do with mathematics in particular
20:21 mgage_ don't know if that is an advantage or a disadvantage :-)
20:21 mgage_ probably a disadvantage since it might mean that he with the most lawyers wins
20:21 aubreyja_ right - she thought our current practice of putting the material up with an explicit license statement and planning to take it down if asked sounds reasonable
20:23 mgage_ that's worth knowing -- then we can worry about it if/when such an event occurs.  I think the evidence to date is that the publishers have decided that it's in their interest to work with us (or at least to work with sites that are using webwork and are considering their text)
20:23 mgage_ I'm rendering the webwork-gource display into an mpeg file at the moment.  Did you look at it? It's quite cool.
20:24 aubreyja_ This is an important fair use decision that came out last Friday:
20:24 aubreyja_ http://www.infodocket.com/2012/05/12/full-text-of-court-opinion-in-georgia-state-university-copyright-case/
20:24 aubreyja_ sure
20:25 aubreyja_ Oops -misread that - no not yet. Although now I'm "done"  and can get back to ww stuff
20:26 mgage_ who is CCC -- the "big winner"
20:26 aubreyja_ it's a consortium of publishers I think -
20:27 aubreyja_ ah: The CCC collects royalties from colleges and other organizations for the use of copyrighted materials.
20:27 aubreyja_ Oh I remember - the judge said that publishers should develop excerpt licensing policies
20:27 aubreyja_ If they don't, then they can't sue universities who use excerpts without paying
20:28 aubreyja_ so, that's good for CCC who does this already for publishers
20:28 aubreyja_ and will likely get more business
20:28 mgage_ I see.  It also looks like most of the examples are passages from books.  I suspect that disputes about exercises have not yet been put up in this particular debate
20:29 aubreyja_ Right - this was mainly about ERes I think
20:30 mgage_ Elsevier seems to be getting the  most flack from math types
20:31 mgage_ one project this summer is to get together with beezer, david farmer, grout and others to write a joint proposal to AIM involving open source texts, homework and CAS
20:31 aubreyja_ I had heard they were behaving in some bad way, but I forgot the actual story
20:32 mgage_ mostly they are just really expensive -- particularly considering that the academic community provides nearly free pre processing (TeX), reviewing, etc. etc.
20:33 mgage_ Tim Gowers is one of the leaders,  Rob Kirby has been active on this in the past -- don't know if he is a leader on this one or not.
20:33 aubreyja_ The judge did say that "the Court looks first to the relationship between the length of the excerpt"…"Then  the relationship between the value of the excerpt and the value of the book""
20:34 aubreyja_ that seems somewhat relevant to our problem collections if someone claims they are copyrightable derivative works, since they are "used for the purpose of teaching"
20:35 aubreyja_ and in particular for "nonprofit educational use"
20:35 mgage_ missed that last part of your previous quote -- something about teaching?   incompatible encoding
20:36 aubreyja_ since they are "since they are "used for the purpose of teaching"
20:36 aubreyja_ did that come through?
20:37 aubreyja_ and in particular for "nonprofit educational use"
20:37 mgage_ that came through  -- it was the original quote you pasted in that didn't make it
20:37 mgage_ so that looks like we're reasonably safe.
20:38 aubreyja_ yeah, at least it's clear that the decision is either not particularly relevant or not harmful to our position
20:39 aubreyja_ Alhtogh, maybe we can talk about this with the posse people and the MAA, it might be a good idea to think about "contributor agreements"
20:39 aubreyja_ fedora and ubuntu have these for all contributors, even people who just edit their wiki
20:39 aubreyja_ wikis
20:39 mgage_ I'll send you  the raw mpeg file of the webwork-gource rendering once it's done.  I think it will be a nice promotional item -- have to figure out how to commen on it.
20:40 mgage_ yes -- that's a good idea.  I think we've started a little bit by having a license in the NPL.
20:40 aubreyja_ cool - I'll get it working and finally get to the planet software - I need to think about something other than classes and teaching finally!
20:41 mgage_ yeah -- know the feeling -- I'm finishing up the senior checks tonight then I'll start thinking about code camp
20:42 mgage_ would you be interested in coming early?  should I ask Steve Jacobs if it would be ok if you sat in the first two days?
20:42 mgage_ I suspect they'd welcome it
20:49 aubreyja_ Sorry - stepped out for a second - yes, I think that sounds like a great idea - I'll run it by my wife
20:49 mgage_ ok.  let me know

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