Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #webwork, 2013-01-15

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Time Nick Message
02:16 Paul__ joined #webwork
04:27 mgage_ joined #webwork
13:09 goehle joined #webwork
15:24 aubreyja joined #webwork
16:59 mgage aubreyja: hi
16:59 aubreyja Hi - how's it going?
17:00 aubreyja just got off the phone with Shivram - jmm turned out quite well for him
17:00 mgage great.
17:00 djun joined #webwork
17:01 mgage I think the wiki search engine might need a kick.  I tried searching for essayQuestion and couldn't find it even though I know it's there.
17:01 aubreyja btw, inspired by yoav, I'm taking the 'programming languages' class on coursera
17:02 aubreyja yep, now that you mention it - it's exactly the sort of thing that would fail to restart after a reboot..I'll take a look
17:02 mgage I'm trying to get a version of ww2.5.1.1 + that has essay questions -- there seems to be significant demand.
17:04 mgage cool. -- I sat in on part of the course by Michael Scott last semester -- his book is pretty good. -- I haven't started overloading yet this semester -- I still need to get my classes going.  I am going to try using piazza though -- it's pretty cool -- and it's blog is the kind of thing we need to get going on webwork -- to let people know what features are available http://blog.piazza.com/
17:06 aubreyja great - piazza does look nice
17:06 mgage I'm trying to remember what switches I have to throw to get essayQuestions going -- it's running on hosted2. but not yet on my ww2.5.2 platform on my laptop :-)
17:07 aubreyja hmm - upgrade course, add content module, fix URLPath?
17:13 aubreyja odd question from jw about using webwork questions in blackboard….whoever this is should just get in touch with us directly!
17:41 aubreyja mgage: try the search now. I think it's going, and I added an init script that should make sure it gets started after a reboot
18:37 mgage yep -- works.  thank you
19:35 djun joined #webwork
20:02 djun hi all
20:02 djun gage, I used piazza last year.  Students, TAs, and instructors all liked it
20:03 aubreyja Hi djun - piazza does sound great
20:03 aubreyja glad you're here too - I've got a question for you
20:04 aubreyja mgage are you around too?
20:04 djun aubreyja, comment regarding iptables config.  I've seen a ton of password guessing attempts via SSH.  I resorted to moving to a non-standard port, per various suggestions on the web for hardening SSH. Might be worth inserting a comment or something :)
20:05 djun Getting ahead of myself! First of all, Happy New Year!!
20:05 goehle djun, if you are running yoru own server you might consider something like fail2ban
20:05 aubreyja ah, good idea.  Maybe we should have the script ask questions like that e.g. ssh y/n, port: 22 or something else...
20:05 goehle (as a bit of an aside)
20:06 aubreyja fail2ban? is it in package repos?
20:06 goehle it is
20:06 djun I've used fail2ban over the years, but it feels like the wrong solution in the face of botnets :)
20:06 goehle I wouldn't make it default or anything
20:06 goehle why?  I'm just curious
20:07 aubreyja So, guys - model courses.
20:07 goehle right..
20:07 aubreyja we've got a few tar.gz archives of templates directories of model courses we want to distibute
20:07 djun I use hosts.allow / hosts.deny to limit ssh access to a very small number of addresses, and then use a non-standard port :)
20:08 aubreyja (and their authors want distributed)
20:08 djun great stuff
20:08 goehle nice
20:08 aubreyja so the question is where to put them
20:08 djun what's in them?
20:09 aubreyja Mike and I were discussing this with someone from Worldwide Center of Mathematics (an inexpensive textbook publisher)
20:09 aubreyja primarily *.def files but also some slightly modified problems we don't exactly want in the problem library probably
20:09 goehle mmm
20:09 goehle why not in courses.dist
20:09 goehle with hide_directory
20:09 aubreyja that's not a bad idea actually...
20:10 goehle If these are intended to be "standard" model courses
20:10 aubreyja what's in there now? just modelCourse and some default *.lst files
20:10 goehle or were you thinking about a wiki solution
20:10 goehle yeah
20:10 djun How about a separate github repo?
20:10 aubreyja the wiki is not a great solution because many people don't know to look there
20:10 djun and a script to download :)
20:11 djun Hopefully people will eventually add their own
20:11 aubreyja right - I guess I'm on the fence between doing something like OpenProblemLibrary/modelCourses and just creating a separate modelCourses repo
20:12 goehle what do you envision for how people would use them
20:12 goehle ooc
20:12 goehle waht I mean is
20:12 goehle someone emails me and says they want to use webwork for calc I
20:12 goehle do I as the admin run a script or something to use am odel course
20:12 aubreyja well, they could use them like they do modelCourse - when they create a new course they can choose to copy the templates directory from modelCourse (default) or one of the provided model courses
20:13 goehle right
20:13 aubreyja The user can upload a tar.gz file and unpack it or the administrator can do it when the course is created
20:13 goehle so tar.gz files available on the wiki or somewhere for users would be nice
20:14 goehle for admins it would be helpful fi the model courses were already listed from the get go
20:14 djun I think it would be great if there were a webpage people could visit to learn about the courses, with an easy option from there to install
20:15 aubreyja there are tar.gz files on the wiki, but those are hard to find and I don't think we want to require authors of model courses to also create a wiki page.  Of course, we'll want some documentation in the course, but a wiki page may be too much to ask (it might be a deterrent)
20:15 goehle that would be nice.  I guess install how though?
20:15 goehle as in, you already have a course made for you
20:15 mgage back
20:15 goehle and you modify it as user?
20:15 mgage catching up with the conversation
20:15 aubreyja that would be nice djun
20:16 aubreyja If we put them in a repo on github we may be able to use the github api for this
20:16 djun i seem to recall talking about this some months ago, setting up via Drupal
20:17 goehle is it worth setting a new thing up or using the existing distribution system?
20:17 djun I didn't go beyond setting up the bare-bones install on the MAA servers
20:17 aubreyja yeah, that would be nice, but it's going to take time.  (We're all busy) So, i just want to put them someplace useful now that we can perhaps piggyback off of when we have a better solution.
20:18 djun github makes sense to me, and can be a backend for whatever we do later
20:18 goehle quick and dirty would be to put them in courses.dist, because then administrators could easily create courses as a copy of modelCalcI modelCalc2 etc
20:18 djun How many distinct model courses are there at this point?
20:18 goehle is there only one copy of each model course? as in only one Calc I?
20:20 goehle hmm, what if we did what Jason said and make model courses a part of the open problem library.  Then we build a function into webwork which would allow professors to change which model course they have (similar to how they change their theme)
20:20 aubreyja well, we don't want to enforce that - my only worry with courses.dist is that the model courses are not exactly 'core code' and I think it would be nice to keep a separation (in fact, I'd argue for moving courses.dist out of webwork2 and putting modelCourse etc in a separate repository if we go that route)
20:20 mgage for the moment yes.  -- also you still have to move courses from courses.dist into where ever you have put your course directory (e.g.  webwork/courses)  before you can use it as a template for a new course.
20:20 goehle ah
20:20 goehle so we could make model courses part of the open problem library
20:21 goehle and add instructions on the wikito move modelcourses.dist to the courses directory
20:22 mgage that would work -- you can download a tar.gz file created by the archive tool (a course with say only admin and practice users) ,  and then a site administrator can upload it and use it as a template for new courses.
20:22 djun At UBC, instructors don't have access to the administer course functionality.  They would have to ask for a course to be created.  So this seems like it would be aimed at "admins"
20:22 mgage we used courses.dist   mostly so that when using svn you didn't have to download and update more than two repos (pg and webwork2)
20:22 djun So the tar.gz distribution makes sense to me
20:23 mgage yes it's aimed at admins.
20:23 aubreyja sorry - I got interrupted - so is there a consensus?
20:24 djun I'd be inclined to a separate repo.  But the question is, will there be overlap with the OPL in terms of included problems?
20:24 mgage OK.  one issue that keeps coming up, and I don't know whether to worry about it or not.   -- when you make something easily available it's also available to students  -- so in theory most problems used by profs could be researched by students in the OPL (of course they can find many more by looking at the calc books in the real library)
20:25 goehle I see, but if its for model courses and they end up getting used a lot the same problems get used a lot
20:25 mgage everytime this has been worried about before it's usually turned out that erring on the side of more openness rather than less has been the most productive path.  but there is always a first time :-)
20:25 aubreyja that's a good point - part of the original drupal idea was to restrict the course browser to logged in professors...
20:26 mgage yeah and the point of modelCourse is for them to be a turnkey solution -- at least for the first time the instructor teaches the course
20:26 aubreyja but, part of me says, if they're going to just dump in  a model course and not think about it at all then maybe they get what they deserve….
20:26 djun I'd think that any student who can get the OPL files and figure out what the solution is based on reading them probably would be able to do pretty well on the questions without that help :)
20:26 aubreyja that's a good point
20:26 mgage that's usually what has turned out to be the case in the past. (The first student who is really successful at hacking webwork I plan to hire. :-) )
20:27 goehle yeah, I guess the wory is some enterprising young student creates a js page the solves all problems in a model course hw and puts it online
20:27 goehle and since all the model courses are the same now there is an easy path for anyone.  This is sounding more unlikely the more I type htough
20:27 mgage it's possible.  Wolfram alpha is already a reality -- I don't want to get too worried,  but I do want to think about it a bit.
20:27 goehle yeah
20:28 goehle So are model courses planned on being similar to the problem library
20:28 goehle with lots of user submitted stuff
20:28 aubreyja how about we put them up now just to get them out there and then build in some security if we need to
20:28 aubreyja right
20:28 goehle and courses that are pretty much the same but a little different
20:29 goehle or is it going to be more manicured, only one or two courses per class and so on?
20:29 mgage I can live with that -- although it's hard to make things go away once they are on the web -- but they do fade with time
20:29 mgage more manicured I think -- the idea is to try to help new profs find the content they are looking for.
20:29 goehle how about this
20:30 goehle we put model courses in a modelCourses.dist directory in the problem library folder
20:30 goehle we add to the installation instructions that if you want to use modelCourses you should copy this to the course directory
20:30 mgage But say a prof who has a course and set of webwork problems they really like wants to "publish" it.  Then after a bit of review I'd say go ahead
20:30 goehle that gets model courses off the ground right away for admin
20:31 mgage it might be even easier to make it a separate github repo and then clone that into webwork/courses.
20:31 goehle sure, that works too
20:31 aubreyja right - I like Mike's idea a bit better because if we have people copy over from the problem library
20:31 djun Sounds like what we want is basically one-click, one-file import/export for courses
20:31 aubreyja they might lose the git metadata and be unable to update it if changes come along
20:32 mgage that would also allow you to contribute back by uploading the tarred courses to your own github and either offering them directly to others or sending a pull request to the openwebwork github
20:32 goehle not export, because its going to be a controlled library of courses I think
20:32 goehle ah
20:32 goehle I sed
20:32 goehle see, nm
20:32 aubreyja And for admins, being in courses/ will get them picked up by the admin course
20:33 goehle right, they will automatically appear as copyable courses during course creation
20:33 goehle my only worry is that administrators wont know which model course to use if there end up being a lot of them
20:33 mgage I have plans for exporting things at the homework set level where all the auxiliary files are packaged up -- but that is a ways off still.
20:34 aubreyja maybe we keep the default install instructions now, but for those who want the model courses collection, they can choose to use the new courses/ repo?
20:34 aubreyja in place of courses.dist
20:34 mgage I think we can stick for one modelCourse for each "course type"   calc1, calc2,  multivariablecalc, for now -- for openwebwork,   those seeking
20:34 mgage more variety can clone from auxiliary github repos
20:34 goehle sounds good to me
20:34 mgage aubreyja: sounds good
20:35 goehle that makes it really easy for administrators to create the appropriate coruse
20:35 goehle what about using symbolic links to put the modelCourses in the courses file
20:35 goehle that way they still get updated with the git repo gets changed?
20:35 goehle although I suppose you could jus tpull the courses git repo straight into courses
20:35 aubreyja and keep them in the problem library - where would they go if we did that?
20:35 goehle how will that affect existing courses though?
20:36 mgage goehle:  I'm trying to backport your essayQuestions so that it works with the ww2.5.1.1 release.   -- ww2.5.2 is quite a distance from being ready for prime time and quite a few people want essayQuestions now.
20:36 goehle hmmm, I should really work on those features people want then
20:36 goehle I still have a list here somewhere
20:36 goehle one big thing is that it needs to be easier to find the grader
20:36 mgage just letting you know one of the things I'm up to.
20:37 goehle good to know
20:37 djun sound good, mike
20:37 goehle the version thats running is stable enough for people who really want to use it. (hopefully)
20:38 djun i'm working with a professor in Elec. Engineering at UBC who is implementing a 'flipped classroom' using essay questions.
20:38 goehle one thing I'll try to get done sooner rather than later is adding email functionality
20:38 mgage goehle: you are running the version ww2.5.2 from github.com/openwebwork?
20:38 goehle since I think the ability to email comments and grades is going to be pretty high on the desired features list
20:38 djun he has students complete a question before class, runs their answers through some simple NPL software he's working on, and using that to tune the lectures on the fly :)
20:39 mgage cool
20:39 goehle fancy
20:39 aubreyja NLP?
20:39 mgage natural language processing
20:39 djun natural language processing  (actually, the python NLP library)
20:39 aubreyja cool
20:40 djun his first attempt was to just run the responses through wordle :)
20:40 aubreyja ok, I'm going to create this repo in openwebwork
20:40 aubreyja ha
20:40 mgage there is a good deal of interest and expertise in NLP at U. of Rochester in the CS department -- if some the results are shareable I'll see if the profs here are interested.
20:40 aubreyja modelCourses/, courses/, webwork-model-course-library?
20:41 djun the interesting thing is, KPMG is very interested in using this for their internal training
20:41 mgage the last
20:41 djun and seems to have money
20:41 aubreyja webwork-model-course-library?
20:41 mgage yes
20:42 djun i'll put him in touch - Matt Yedlin is his name
20:42 mgage djun: interesting -- would you be interested in hosting a code camp in Vancouver this summer this time?  We have some money but I'm also scouting for local donors so perhaps KPMG would be interested.
20:43 djun On another topic, my contract with UBC stats is coming to an end (grant funding is running out) and I'll be looking for work soon - if anyone hears of anything, think of me :)
20:43 djun Mike, yes, that would be of definite interest there
20:43 aubreyja Freeman is looking for people to write webwork problems
20:43 mgage and we're working on WeBWorK::Raleigh -- I'm pretty sure the date will be something like March 7 - 10 (come wed night, leave sunday noon) -- still working on the schedule
20:44 aubreyja I've agreed to do some linear algebra problems for Jeff Holt's book, and Dick Lane it sounds like will be doing some calc problems, but they need more people (they want at least 3 on each book)
20:44 djun great, sounds good
20:45 aubreyja I'll forward you a message from the editor who contacted us
20:45 djun awesome, thanks!
20:46 mgage one item for WeBWorK::Raleigh will be the front end AJAX UI.   Peter Staab, David Gage, probably a few others -- Peter has done a great deal of work and I'd like to get a substantial amount done so that we can polish it for summer release.
20:46 djun Sounds great
20:46 mgage the current version is up on hosted2.webwork.rochester.edu/webwork2/maa10x  usual logins
20:47 aubreyja I heard rumors of a 'webwork job' at the joint meetings.  Mike - did you hear anything about that?
20:47 mgage nothing is coming to mind right at the moment.
20:48 djun Mike, I think I still owe you some cleanup work on themes, and code mirror in particular
20:48 djun what's the best branch to work from?
20:52 djun Also, I'll send a pull request for the R-integration work I did, once I coordinate with UBC CTLT to figure out what branch they are using.  95% of the code is packaged as a CPAN module, since it's pretty generic
20:55 mgage as long as you don't need it out right away you can work from my githhub.com/mgage/webwork2-dev repo.  That means you can help test the UI also.
20:56 mgage Otherwise you can work from github.com/openwebwork/webwork2-dev   -- actually that is probably better -- that way your development and the UI development are independent of each other for now.
20:56 goehle while I've got everyone where, where do you think would be the best place to put "needs grading" links?
20:56 djun Fast would be good from the point of view of CTLT.  But I'll be happy to help with the UI, in any case
20:57 mgage I've got several versions running my laptop for testing -- once past ww2.5.1.1   switching is now much easier (still have to change database.conf sometimes)
20:59 mgage it's ok in statistics for the moment. -- it might work a bit better in student progress (somehow grading and progress go together) -- I think we can also make it a flag on a profs homepage -- so that they get an alert about work that needs to be done.
20:59 djun Geoff - good question :)  I'd love to see a separate page of all responses (paged if necessary)
20:59 mgage that's also possible -- we could just make it a separate module in the left margin
20:59 djun maybe something like …/instructor/essaygrader/assign-xx/yy/
21:00 mgage you should also mention it to Peter Staab since he is completely reworking the homework management section
21:00 mgage it could be an item on spreadsheet that lists the current homework assignments.
21:01 djun Mike, is this targeted against a new release/branch? (2.6? 3.0?)
21:01 mgage djun: about piazza -- did you use the group feature?  -- I'd like to figure out how to use it to form my class into recitation sections (also allow them to form their own study sessions as well) -- I've been reading directions -- but would be grateful for any advice
21:01 goehle one issue with that is I would need to look at every problem from every homework when that page loads to check if any needs grading
21:02 goehle and then there needs to be a separate place which shows each problem (because the links are problem specific)
21:02 djun mike: i didn't use the group feature - we had a multi-section course, but all of the students (1000+) were in the same piazza course, iirc
21:03 goehle a seperate page which just lists all of the essay question problems in a spreadsheet with their current statis is a good idea
21:03 mgage well -- as usual I'm playing catch up with what people have volunteered to do.  I'll release the UI as 2.5.2 or I can move it up to 2.6 -- the new look is pretty dramatic.
21:03 goehle but I'm hesitant to add yet another page to the side bar
21:04 goehle whats this piazza stuff ooc?
21:04 djun just to be controversial, i'd like to see the sidebar go away :)
21:04 mgage I'd be happy to get this planned out in more detail -- but so much is dependent on what people are willing and eager to do, and how much time they end up having that advanced planning is tricky.
21:04 djun replaced by a drop down horizontal menu :)
21:05 djun mike, what would be a good place to put the planning document?  MAA wiki?
21:05 mgage on hosted2 it's a drop down vertical menu -- but suggest the horizontal idea to Peter and see what he thinks.
21:05 djun will do, I have some thoughts regarding the DB schema which no doubt he's had to think about too
21:05 mgage yes -- I think so.   Impassioned pleas for some feature or other (and descriptions of features accomplished) can go on the blog posts where it is more personal.
21:06 aubreyja djun - the classlisteditor3, librarybrowser3 are sort of going in that direction it looks like
21:06 aubreyja ah, never mind - incomplete reading of conversation
21:06 mgage Actually no -- the DB schema has only been changing gradually but it's up for a major overhaul soon -- just can't do too many things at once.
21:06 djun At some point I think I optimistically put up a roadmap page on the wiki
21:07 mgage yes -- there is a roadmap page -- just hasn't been filled in much yet.
21:07 djun http://webwork.maa.org/wiki/Roadmap
21:07 djun :)
21:14 djun any strong feelings re: version numbers? Should we put a stake in the ground and aim to tag the result of Raleigh the 3.x release?
21:15 goehle what about 3.x for the release of the new UI
21:15 goehle or does it warrent it?  I havent seen it myself
21:16 djun Mike, I've been seeing lots of convergent merging on github.  Looks like you are bringing order to the chaos :)
21:16 djun Makes me happy :)
21:16 goehle what are we planning for Raleigh, btw.  Is there going to be another online planning session?
21:16 aubreyja there will be an online planning session - the first one didn't happen because we were all too busy
21:17 aubreyja Actually, I'll go ahead and send out a doodle poll for it for next week
21:17 mgage probably -- and pretty soon (this is first week of semester so I'm a bit overwhelmed) -- any projects you'd like to toss out for the Raleigh code camp besides the UI?
21:17 djun cool
21:17 mgage aubreyja: thanks
21:18 goehle I'm happy to work on anything.  I don't have any amazing ideas for new features
21:19 goehle Although I remember talking about trying to redo some of the back end database stuff with Perl::DBI at the last coding camp I was at
21:20 mgage djun: for a smaller project -- I'd like to get a usable literature reference app operating -- I'm still thinking that the drupal set you set up on webwork.maa.org is a good bet for this.  -- the most recent think I've come across is a bit specialized, -- still looking in to it but perhaps others can help.
21:20 mgage http://scratchpads.eu/  http://cypripedioideae.e-monocot.org/biblio
21:20 mgage http://help.scratchpads.eu/w/Main_Page
21:20 mgage http://scratchpads.eu/about/why/create
21:20 mgage http://scratchpads.eu/about/faq
21:20 djun Mike, sounds good
21:21 goehle what are scratchpads?
21:22 djun In general, do we want the top-level user-facing site to be Drupal, with the bibliography as a feature?
21:22 mgage the backend DB is likely to be a pretty big project -- but we can start with some smaller stuff -- e.g.  creating single user table and figuring out how to morph the existing individual tables (per class ) to using a single user table across all classes -- a big par of the challenge is the migration path
21:22 djun Maybe model courses as another
21:23 mgage that would be fine with me -- particularly for now --also  MAA is moving toward drupal as their main content management system -- (beyond just WW)
21:23 djun Great
21:24 djun Data migration is always the killer with software development :)
21:25 mgage the scratchpads are bibliography entry -- somewhat specialized for natural history references.  -- I haven't had time to research it completely yet -- it's possible we could actually use theirs (they let other people play on it to some extent) but even more likely we can use the same tools they did (drupal tools) to build one that is even better adapted to what we need.   The moodle reference database will do if absolutely necessary -- but it's pr
21:25 mgage clunky and I think we can do better
21:26 goehle (lots of questions) so whats the bibliography?
21:26 goehle I saw djun mention it
21:26 mgage they look pretty clean -- take a look and see what you think
21:26 djun Datastore independence helps. So something like DBI is a good idea, i think
21:27 mgage I want a place where we can store WW literature -- the current version is at http://webwork.maa.org/moodle/mod/data/view.php?id=9   but it's not that slick
21:28 goehle ah I see, yeah, could be prettier :)
21:28 djun OK, I will start with that, do something basic
21:29 mgage there is a slicker version at http://webwork.maa.org/publications.html  -- but it's hard to update.   We need something that  few people can update from the web and that many people can be pointed to when they ask what has been happening lately with webwork, or "are there studies showing the effectiveness of webwork",  or where can I find Goehle's paper on the gamefication of WeBWorK   :-)
21:31 goehle that would be useful.  I didn't know there was so much literature out there, for example
21:31 mgage follow the links at the scratchpads.edu sites above -- their examples look pretty clean
21:31 mgage there is much more than you see on the web. -- it's been such a pain to update stuff that it gets put off.
21:32 mgage afk
21:36 djun My battery is dying :(
21:37 djun I need to return home
21:37 goehle have a safe trip
21:37 djun just a few blocks :)
21:37 djun But Vancouver drivers are crazy ;)
21:37 djun C u all soon
21:38 mgage kk -- I need to head home as well.  -- need to get my syllabi ready for tomorrow's classes
21:38 mgage ttyl
21:45 goehle hey aubreyja
21:45 goehle what is piazza
21:45 aubreyja sup?
21:45 goehle (or however its spelled)
21:45 aubreyja oh, piazza is a new and getting popular discussion site for use with courses
21:46 aubreyja I saw it in action last semester - seems pretty cool - Mike's planning to use it this semeseter
21:46 goehle what does it do for math rendering
21:46 aubreyja https://piazza.com/
21:46 goehle (seemed like they had something on their site)
21:46 aubreyja dunno actually -
21:47 mgage MathJax
21:47 aubreyja we hooked up the email instructor button to point to piazza for a course on the maa servers
21:47 goehle huh, interesting
21:48 aubreyja you can see on their site that all of the people who use it are smiling
21:48 goehle :D  thats what I do when I use sites I like
21:48 aubreyja me too, it must be good
21:52 goehle looking at the demo, seems nice
21:52 goehle but could be a big time sink
21:53 aubreyja the prof we know who used it hired undergraduate 'tutors' to help manage the discussion (he's a smart guy)
21:54 aubreyja outta here - ttyl
21:54 goehle ah, yeah that would help take the edge off.  My only worry would be that in order to make it a useful thing students would need to get relatively quick responses to their questions
21:54 goehle later
21:54 goehle :)
21:54 aubreyja that's probably true
21:54 aubreyja but students can also answer other students questions, so that might help
21:54 goehle yeha
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