Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #webwork, 2013-09-03

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
01:10 rbeezer_ joined #webwork
04:08 webguest joined #webwork
04:09 webguest anyone awake?
13:00 goehle joined #webwork
13:40 mgage joined #webwork
15:49 aubreyja joined #webwork
15:49 aubreyja joined #webwork
17:34 rbeezer joined #webwork
18:57 mgage joined #webwork
18:57 mgage aubreyja: hi
18:57 aubreyja Hi - how's it going?
18:58 mgage just getting started again today -- at I'm already at least a week behind :-)
18:58 mgage I have a question about the doxygen engine -- I'm pretty sure it's not working and I'd like a tour of how it's supposed to work -- so that there are at least two of us who can get it started again when it goes down.
18:58 aubreyja that's what's great about the beginning of the semester - it's possible to be only a week behind
18:59 mgage exactly --next week I'll be 3 weeks behind
18:59 aubreyja sure, but not sure I know it all either - just a sec - lemme login
19:01 mgage some of the data was in your directory -- but I'm not sure if that was the active directory or ot
19:01 mgage not
19:01 aubreyja ok, djun set this up so I have to refresh my memory of what he did -
19:02 aubreyja /var/www/wwdocs seems to have some stuff
19:03 mgage yes -- there is some data there -- although I'm not sure how to interpret it -- more important I'm not sure how to specify the code it is using for the source and how often to process it
19:03 mgage it could be that I/we should ask Djun -- I thought he'd said something about you were keeping it going.
19:04 aubreyja oh, I guess I forgot that arrangement :)
19:04 aubreyja I don't see an apache config stanza for it though...
19:06 aubreyja lagging...
19:06 aubreyja do you remember what the url was supposed to be?
19:06 mgage In your directory there are some files such as ww-make-docs
19:06 mgage are those related?
19:07 aubreyja yeah, those actually do the old pod->html translation (largely written by Sam)
19:07 aubreyja but the doxygen stuff I think is generated straight from the code + the doxygen daemon
19:07 mgage ok -- so the doxygen stuff replaces this then
19:08 aubreyja yes - that was the idea - although I have a couple of complaints about how it seems to work (which I can show you once we get it running again)
19:09 mgage I think it's not running -- or perhaps its not pointed at the current github branches
19:09 mgage the pod documentation on the wiki is getting out of date.
19:10 aubreyja yes - I can easily change the old conversion to use git, but didn't b/c I thought we were switchting to doxygen...
19:10 aubreyja ok, jaubrey/webwork is where the code is going that the /pod docs are generated from
19:10 mgage we don't have to solve this now -- but let's remember to query Djun and figure out how this is supposed to work -- at least figure out where the doygen engine and its controls are.
19:11 mgage jaubrey/webwork looks like it has the data for the old method -- not the doxygen one  -- yes?
19:12 aubreyja yes - and I think jaubrey/openwebwork must be where the doxygen stuff is going
19:13 mgage either that or /var/www/wwdocs/doxygen -- that was one of my questions -- which one is actually in active use
19:13 aubreyja ah - jaubrey/admintools
19:14 aubreyja ok, I see now run_doxygen.sh for example
19:14 aubreyja in jaubrey/admintools/doxygen
19:14 aubreyja ok, I'm remembering now - the point was to commit this stuff back to openwebwork/admintools on github
19:15 aubreyja and djun left a notes file in there too
19:15 mgage and probably to run a version of what is in your directory in the /var/www/wwdocs directory ?
19:16 mgage kk -- now I know where to look so when I get some free time I can work on this as well -- that will be a couple of days yet.
19:16 aubreyja yes, see run_doxygen.sh
19:16 mgage kk
19:16 aubreyja that should probably be on a cron job
19:17 mgage ok -- I see the general outline.
19:17 aubreyja ok, I found an error in that scrip that is preventing it from running... just a sec I bet I can get it running
19:18 mgage in addition to putting it on a cron job (which we could do now) we'll want to make it a bit more robust so it runs somewhere besides your directory
19:19 aubreyja yeah - we can put this all in /var/www/ and have it run as apache
19:20 mgage the  wiki seems to be getting pod data from webwork.maa.org/pod/pg_TRUNK -- what directory is that? or is it a location variable
19:20 aubreyja seems to be doing it's job now...
19:20 mgage in apache config
19:21 mgage it seems to be /var/www/wwdocs/pg_TRUNK
19:21 mgage those files were just updated.
19:21 aubreyja yes, that's in jaubrey/webwork I think (doxygen is still running)
19:22 aubreyja hmm...maybe this doxygen script did that?...
19:23 mgage oh -- I see /var/www/doxygen is actually a link to the doxygen directory in jaubrey
19:24 aubreyja http://webwork.maa.org/pod/doxygen/webwork2/
19:24 mgage which directory is that?
19:25 aubreyja that's hitting /var/www/wwdocs/doxygen/webwork2
19:25 aubreyja which is really /home/jaubrey/admintools/doxygen/webwork2
19:25 mgage ok -- in apache.conf /pod is aliased to /var/www/wwdocs
19:26 aubreyja and notice it says 'PG Documentation' when it's actually 'webwork2 documentation'...
19:26 aubreyja right
19:26 mgage so that starts to make sense now.
19:26 aubreyja yes - needs some cleaning up, but it's there at least
19:27 mgage ok -- I'll check and see if some of the new PG contexts and macro files are being updated --
19:27 aubreyja my main complaint about this is that it doesn't seem to actually show the pod
19:27 mgage we still need to see where the code is being read that provides the pod documentation
19:28 mgage what do you mean?
19:28 aubreyja E.g. http://webwork.maa.org/pod/doxygen/pg/
19:28 aubreyja then click on, say ChoiceList
19:28 aubreyja lists all methods, but says they are 'undocumented'
19:29 aubreyja my second complaint is that it doesn't nicely separate macros from library files (.pm files) - I think that distinction is relied upon a lot when people use the old pod docs
19:30 mgage yes --- I see what was confusing me -- I was still using the old POD link from the wiki -- which is not being updated.
19:30 aubreyja I'm fixing that now btw
19:31 mgage where is the wiki link to pod/doxygen ?
19:31 aubreyja not sure we ever added one
19:32 mgage I agree with your objections -- we need to address those before the doxygen version can adequately replace the sam/jason pod readers.
19:32 mgage At least now I've been reminded of what I'm looking for.
19:32 aubreyja I'll work on this today and at least get the pod docs usable again
19:33 goehle hey mgage
19:33 mgage ok -- getting the original pod docs usable might be the right thing to do -- the doxygen project is less ready for prime time than I thought so we can take a little time to think how it should work
19:33 mgage hi
19:34 mgage goehle: hi
19:34 goehle I got an email back from Jean-Philippe
19:34 mgage I saw it -- he sent me a copy
19:34 goehle ah ok
19:34 goehle was trying to decide how to respond
19:35 goehle I really don't think mathview is the right tool for the job
19:35 mgage it's kind of what I thought -- it's something the customer wants :-)
19:35 mgage so what they want is something that they can fiddle with visually and have a latex equation emerge at the end    --
19:36 mgage aubreyja:  I'll forward this to you as well
19:36 aubreyja kk
19:36 goehle right
19:37 goehle but hows that going to work with perl variables inside latex
19:37 goehle or math objects?
19:38 mgage I think it's not.  What I'd suggest is to add it to the editor (s) so that you can get plain latex out -- then explain how to go in and add perl variables by hand if you wish.
19:38 mgage for MathObjects just show that you don't need mathview since you are just typing in asciiMath or TI83 syntax directly
19:39 mgage my suspicion is that it will be used briefly and then abandoned as people figure out that it is usually easier to type the equation directly
19:39 mgage but that doesn't mean it isn't important at the beginning for getting people used to the idea.
19:39 aubreyja hey goehle - did you respond to Dana Ernst's question on g+?
19:40 goehle right
19:40 goehle hey aubreyja
19:40 goehle I dont think so
19:40 goehle I don't remember any questions anyway :)
19:40 aubreyja he wanted to be able to see all students progress on achievements -
19:40 goehle ah, there is an score achievents ability that will produce a csv
19:40 goehle If I can find his question I"ll tell him
19:41 aubreyja https://plus.google.com/107135522210834007871/posts/15LBhTYgkMd
19:43 goehle as for the editor.... is it worth it to take the time and try to do this right
19:43 goehle build somethign like http://nicedit.com/
19:43 goehle some sort of rich text editor thats js based and is made for pg
19:45 mgage you could discuss this with Jean-Philippe but I think the answer is that for the moment a quick and dirty grafting of MathView back onto the FileManager page and also onto the PGProblemEditor3 page is the right thing to do for now.
19:45 mgage I think it will satisfy 80 to 90% of the request and will give us a chance to see how serious the need is.  -- I also don't think it would be that hard.
19:46 goehle no, its just hacky and kind of broken
19:46 goehle I'll do my best, but its going to be far from perfect
19:46 mgage if there is a wider need we can back up and think about a more general purpose editor like nicEdit or tinymce
19:47 goehle should I do this before or after the reset-able homework stuff?
19:47 mgage I'm sure it's not going to be perfect -- the question is it good enough to give us data on what is the right thing to put additional effort into?  At least that's how I would ask the question.
19:48 goehle maybe?  I mean there won't be any hard data.  I suppose we would be looking to see if people complain that it doesn't do as much as they want, or if nobody says anything at all about it
19:49 mgage since both of these things are things that Jean-Philippe is asking for we should consult him -- and also if it seems helpful -- to take him up on his offer to help out.
19:49 mgage or whether people are actually using it.
19:49 mgage You are right there wouldn't be hard data -- but interview/survey data might be enough.  Maybe?
19:50 goehle Its a good question.  Do we have any systematic way to survey webwork users?
19:50 mgage yes -- a couple -- but in particular Vicki Roth and Flora McMartin do this on a regular basis.
19:51 goehle good to know.  Well at some point we should ask about equation editors
19:51 goehle I suspect you are right and its just something people want to be there
19:51 goehle but may not actually use
19:52 mgage that's why I don't want to put an enormous amount of design effort into this upfront.  if it's used a lot then we should back up and actually design it.
19:53 goehle thats a good plan.  Besides, now that I think about it a PG oriented tinymce would take a lot of design
19:53 goehle maybe somethign to think about for webwork3 instead
19:53 mgage I suspect that even a hack version compares with what is available in other online systems -- it might not be quite as good, but it would come close.
19:53 mgage yes.
19:54 mgage got to run -- I'll be back on line later.
19:54 goehle later
20:25 aubreyja mgage, goehle - needs some work, but now at least usable: http://webwork.maa.org/pod/
20:26 goehle is this coming from the perldoc stuff?
20:26 aubreyja yeah, generated from the code on github
20:27 goehle nice
20:27 goehle I would be better about using that if I knew it went somehwere :)
20:28 aubreyja It's largely really old code that Sam Hathaway wrote - It can use a lot of cleaning up
20:28 aubreyja I've just hacked it together for svn then git
21:04 mgage_ joined #webwork
22:13 rbeezer Problems in the "Orientation" set seem to choke on the Title() function (on hosted2)
22:14 rbeezer should they work otherwise?  Should I just remove the titles?
22:16 rbeezer Maybe because PGUnion.pl is not around?

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