Perl 6 - the future is here, just unevenly distributed

IRC log for #perl6, 2017-03-20

Perl 6 | Reference Documentation | Rakudo

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00:18 [Coke] .
00:18 IOninja :
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00:31 IOninja What's :exclusive mode in open?
00:34 IOninja I'm guessing some sort of locking to prevent another open, but it don't seem to be doing anything....
00:35 IOninja `perl6 -e 'my $x = "foo".IO.open: :rx; my $y = "foo".IO.open: :rx'` don't throw no exceptions.
00:35 geekosaur my guess would be O_EXCL: used when creating a file, to ensure it won't overwrite an existing one
00:36 geekosaur but, that should not have succeeded
00:37 geekosaur (wonder if it's implemented yet. there's some stuff open has documented but not implemented yet, in part because libuv doesn't expose them (or expose them in a usable form)
00:37 IOninja Ah, it does work.
00:37 BenGoldberg Does open return a failure or throw an exception?
00:37 IOninja Returns a Failure
00:38 BenGoldberg So after opening twice and assigning to $x and $y, are they both not-failures?
00:39 IOninja They're failures. I was just not doing anything else with them so there's no throwage
00:40 BenGoldberg s: "foo".IO, 'open'
00:41 BenGoldberg m: dd &open
00:41 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «Sub open = sub open (| is raw) { #`(Sub|38078360) ... }␤»
00:41 IOninja s: "foo".IO.open, 'open', \()
00:41 SourceBaby IOninja, Something's wrong: ␤ERR: Could not find candidate that can do \()␤  in sub sourcery at /home/zoffix/services/lib/CoreHackers-​Sourcery/lib/CoreHackers/Sourcery.pm6 (CoreHackers::Sourcery) line 29␤  in block <unit> at -e line 6␤␤
00:42 BenGoldberg s: "foo".IO, 'open', \()
00:42 IOninja s: "foo".IO.open, 'open', \(:r)
00:42 SourceBaby IOninja, Something's wrong: ␤ERR: Could not find candidate that can do \(:r)␤  in sub sourcery at /home/zoffix/services/lib/CoreHackers-​Sourcery/lib/CoreHackers/Sourcery.pm6 (CoreHackers::Sourcery) line 29␤  in block <unit> at -e line 6␤␤
00:42 IOninja you lie!
00:42 * BenGoldberg bops IOninja for making SourceBaby ignore him. :P
00:42 IOninja s: "/home/zoffix/.bashrc".IO.open, 'open', \(:r)
00:42 SourceBaby IOninja, Sauce is at https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blo​b/6060bd3/src/core/IO/Handle.pm#L13
00:42 IOninja Success.
00:43 IOninja Your own fault :P
00:44 IOninja buggable: eco Sourcery
00:44 buggable IOninja, CoreHackers::Sourcery 'Helper for showing actual source code locations of core subs and methods': https://github.com/zoffixzne​t/perl6-CoreHackers-Sourcery
00:44 * AlexDaniel considers this as a bug in the bot
00:44 AlexDaniel ah no
00:44 IOninja ^ the bot just uses that. So you can use it yourself.
00:44 AlexDaniel nevermind, I'm blind again today
00:44 IOninja AlexDaniel: which part?
00:44 AlexDaniel IOninja: ignore me, I'm stupid
00:44 IOninja OK :)
00:49 BenGoldberg https://docs.perl6.org/type/IO#sub_open doesn't show :x ... is this a doc bug?
00:50 IOninja Yes, but covered under IO grant, so will be fixed soon.
00:57 AlexDaniel buggable: tag REGRESSION
00:57 buggable AlexDaniel, There are 15 tickets tagged with REGRESSION; See http://perl6.fail/t/REGRESSION for details
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01:03 timotimo .tell spebern i didn't see anyone suggest it, but here's how to have an array of structs: https://github.com/jonatha​nstowe/NativeHelpers-Array
01:03 yoleaux timotimo: I'll pass your message to spebern.
01:03 IOninja huggable: array of structs :is: https://github.com/jonatha​nstowe/NativeHelpers-Array
01:03 huggable IOninja, Added array of structs as https://github.com/jonatha​nstowe/NativeHelpers-Array
01:21 IOninja Wonder if this is a bug. Seems Seq's .sink-all method isn't called unless it's explicitly sunk? https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet​/353048bee9629d82b003bb73de92523d
01:33 IOninja I meant the Seq's iterator's .sink-all method
01:36 IOninja m: my $s = Seq.new: class :: does Iterator { method pull-one {}; method sink-all { say "sunk " } }.new; $s
01:36 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of $s in sink context (line 1)␤»
01:36 IOninja m: my $s = Seq.new: class :: does Iterator { method pull-one {}; method sink-all { say "sunk " } }.new; sink $s
01:36 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «WARNINGS for <tmp>:␤Useless use of $s in sink context (line 1)␤sunk ␤»
01:36 IOninja m: my $s = Seq.new: class :: does Iterator { method pull-one {}; method sink-all { say "sunk " } }.new; $s.sink
01:36 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «sunk ␤»
01:36 IOninja u: UNAMUSED FACE
01:36 unicodable6 IOninja, U+1F612 UNAMUSED FACE [So] (😒)
01:36 IOninja Now I vaguely remember a convo about this not being abug; but don't remember why
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02:48 Topic for #perl6 is now »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | https://perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or rakudo:,  or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: http://irc.perl6.org or http://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend!
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07:21 pytuger has this been completely removed from perl6
07:21 pytuger for($x = 0; $x > 10; $x++) {say($x);}
07:22 pytuger I got the message "Null PMC access in get_string()", but I was not sure if there was a newer implementation (considering I just found out about "for (@l1, @l2, @l3) -> $_ { say($_); }" )
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07:27 El_Che pytuger:   https://docs.perl6.org/language/control#loop
07:28 El_Che Although there is a warning in the last rakudo it seems
07:28 El_Che p6: loop (my $i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) { say $i }
07:28 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «0␤1␤2␤3␤4␤5␤6␤7␤8␤9␤»
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07:30 El_Che In rakudo 2017.02 I get this warning after the result (in perl6 repl): Type check failed in binding to $value; expected Any but got Mu (Mu) in any interactive at src/Perl6/Compiler.nqp line 62"
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07:32 pytuger El_Che, thank you
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08:02 arnsholt pytuger: If you get that literal error message, I think your Rakudo is running on *Parrot* which is positively ancient
08:02 arnsholt Paleolithic even, at this point
08:05 samcv pytuger, I would implore you to install Rakudo Star from http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/
08:05 faraco m: say $*PERL.version
08:05 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «v6.c␤»
08:06 faraco hmm, how can I get the alpha, patch, minor version of the interpreter?
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08:06 faraco like, when invoking perl6 -v
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08:09 pytuger samcv, arnsholt,  perl6 -v gives  "This is perl6 version 2014.07 built on parrot 6.6.0 revision 0"   I did get from source however
08:09 pytuger I shall check the url
08:09 samcv yep. that is quite old
08:09 pytuger thank you good sir
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08:09 samcv are you on linux?
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08:10 faraco he probably 'sudo apt-get install perl6'
08:10 faraco whoops, parrot
08:10 samcv i don't think there's a perl6 package on debian?
08:11 samcv there is a rakudo in debian unstable but i cannot recommend it
08:11 faraco 'sudo apt-get install parrot' is what I meant.
08:11 samcv oh
08:11 El_Che what do you run?
08:11 samcv me?
08:11 El_Che I have ubuntu and centos packages, no debian yet
08:11 pytuger There is no perl6 package for debain, i used  git to get source into /usr/src/ and followed the instructions from there
08:11 El_Che samcv: no :)
08:12 samcv pytuger, you might want to try rakudobrew
08:12 pytuger yes, such was my mistake
08:12 samcv https://github.com/tadzik/rakudobrew
08:12 samcv it will do all the compiling for you and is automated and stuff
08:12 pytuger there is an apt-get for rakudo however
08:12 hobbs samcv: "perl6" is a virtual package provided by rakudo
08:12 El_Che pytuger: I'll create debian packages soonish at https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg
08:12 samcv and help you install the package manager zef (i recommend that. but there's also panda package manager)
08:12 samcv oh ok hobbs
08:12 hobbs and on stable it's 2014.07
08:12 pytuger butEl_Che thanks for heads up
08:13 samcv but rakudobrew is great and will compile moarvm, nqp and perl6 by itself. very nice
08:13 faraco not a user of Debian, but what is this - https://packages.debian.org/jessie/perl6
08:13 El_Che pytuger: although I'm pretty sure the Ubuntu packages will install on debian (they only use /opt/rakudo and don't touch the system)
08:13 pytuger faraco, apt-cache search perl6 yeilds nothing on my debian 8 system
08:14 faraco oh..rakudo
08:14 faraco 'sudo apt-get install rakudo'
08:14 faraco not so sure if updated
08:14 El_Che pytuger: I will try to squeeze some time to create the debian packages, they are probably just the same as the ubuntu one.
08:14 jast the version in debian 8 is almost three years old, though
08:14 pytuger "(04:12:42 AM) pytuger: there is an apt-get for rakudo however"
08:14 samcv rakudobrew is like super easy though. and much easier to get the latest perl 6
08:15 El_Che pytuger: go for the rakudo star release at the moment: rakudo + base modules
08:15 samcv much easier than cloning three different repos and installing them all in the right order
08:15 samcv is rakudostar easy to install?
08:15 samcv i've never done it
08:15 faraco that binary?
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08:15 hobbs samcv: you don't have to though, actually :)
08:15 El_Che samcv: it seems to be the consensus that we don't recommend rakudobrew to users, but to perl6 devs (hence my packages).
08:15 pytuger El_Che it will take me time to transition from cpanm on perl5 but I shall work to transition to perl6 quickly
08:15 samcv oh ok El_Che
08:15 samcv i found rakudobrew horrible for deving
08:16 El_Che faraco: rakudo star compiles locally on linux, but it's easy. Pkgs for mac and windows
08:16 samcv because it is all automated. i need to work on moarvm or on nqp or on rakudo. not have it all install it all at the same time
08:16 samcv but i guess for minor contributions it can be fine. but i guess when you start working on moar and nqp and rakudo it's better to have seperate repos
08:17 pytuger my $laugh = 'lol'; $laugh.uc.say; #this reminds me of ruby for w/e reason
08:17 samcv at least personally
08:17 El_Che pytuger: my workflow is (mostly with docker intended): I take the packages here (https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases) and use "zef" as a cpanm/cpan client
08:17 faraco man, if rakudo on debian is very old, I probably gonna use and package rakudo star for Debian or at least Ubuntu launchpad repo (where apt-add-repository && apt-get install rakudo)
08:17 samcv nice faraco++ please do
08:17 pytuger El_Che I've heard more good things than bad with zef as opposed to panda.
08:17 samcv i mean we have binaries for mac and windows. but only source for linu
08:17 El_Che pytuger: there are only centos7 (what works standardizes on) and ubuntu (what I use) packages.
08:18 El_Che pytuger: what I can say is that the zef dev is very accessible.
08:18 pytuger I will try to suck up all information like a sponge
08:18 El_Che pytuger: he helped me to figure out how to get zef in my packages in a sane way
08:19 El_Che pytuger: e.g., if you want to use zef with the rakudo the packages install I use this: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/blo​b/master/docker/install_zef_as_user.sh
08:19 El_Che (there is also a as_root one)
08:19 pytuger Is the perl5 community (developers for modules like Paranoid::Network) planning to port over to perl6? (or is that a don't hold your breath question)
08:20 El_Che that's the nice thing about zef, out of the box in the home of the user
08:20 pytuger I know python3.6 has already ported things like paramiko for SSH
08:20 pytuger and asyncio (but thats for coroutines so of course they would port that)
08:21 El_Che pytuger: python 3 is the next version of 2. That's not the case with Perl 5 -> 6. 2 languages, 1 family.
08:22 El_Che I use perl 5 and 6 happily next to each other
08:22 pytuger interesting
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08:23 pytuger thank you for the zef_as_user.sh url El_Che
08:24 El_Che pytuger: for now, just use Rakudo Star. It's great. It has all the batteries included
08:24 El_Che pytuger: my pkgs are for people that want the minimal stuff (e.g. docker) or prefer os packages
08:25 hobbs even the funny little lithium ones
08:28 faraco m: shell 'echo m'
08:28 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «shell is disallowed in restricted setting␤  in sub restricted at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 1␤  in sub shell at src/RESTRICTED.setting line 15␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
08:28 faraco oh, forgot
08:29 faraco so, where do I get the full rakudo version, from inside a program, without calling perl6 using shell, run, etc?
08:29 faraco m: say $*PERL.version
08:29 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «v6.c␤»
08:32 hobbs m: say $*PERL.compiler.version
08:32 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «v2017.03.10.g.6060.bd.3␤»
08:32 faraco oh, I see
08:32 faraco I just found, I can use this also
08:33 faraco m: say $*VM
08:33 camelia rakudo-moar 6060bd: OUTPUT: «moar (2017.03)␤»
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08:33 faraco but yours, more complete. hobbs++
08:34 hobbs one's the rakudo version, one's the moar version :)
08:34 hobbs and $*PERL.version is the perl version :)
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09:30 faraco samcv: I noticed something. Installing rakudo on Debian 8, I got the version of 2014.07-4, which use parrot as the vm. but on Ubuntu 16.04, I got the 2015.11, which use rakudo, on on sid, I believe the latest one is the 2016-12-1 implementation.
09:30 samcv faraco, ah i see. i've only tried to install it on sid
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09:34 faraco samcv: I'm not sure why the package is not listed in as an option - http://rakudo.org/how-to-get-rakudo/#Install​ing-Rakudo-Star-Source-Prerequisites-Debian
09:34 samcv well i don't think they have rakudo star?
09:36 faraco samcv: hmm, I don't think so, rakudo sid package use rakudo star - http://http.debian.net/debian/pool/mai​n/r/rakudo/rakudo_2016.12.orig.tar.gz
09:36 samcv oh do they?
09:36 samcv kk
09:37 faraco I open it and received the same structure as in rakudo star linux on the rakudo page 2017.01 - http://rakudo.org/downloads/s​tar/rakudo-star-latest.tar.gz
09:37 faraco maybe not the latest, but still
09:38 faraco debian people need to be informed about rakudo package existence on the page. (not everyone want to compile them)
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09:41 faraco rakudo .deb package*
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10:00 abraxxa zostay: DOM::Tiny fails some tests on 2017.03, can travis be set up to test each rakudo release?
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10:12 faraco samcv: meh, nevermind about making the debian package. IONinja has tweeted - https://twitter.com/zoffix​/status/843478198516142081. We can download the latest (or almost) debian package from here - https://twitter.com/zoffix​/status/843478198516142081
10:12 faraco oops, from here - https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releases
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10:42 faraco Hi, is there any Tk binding for Perl 6 that you know? I cannot find any in modules.perl6.org
10:44 DrForr Not yet, you're welcome to give it a try though :)
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11:02 moritz or you could use p5's Tk module through Inline::Perl5
11:02 moritz seems we don't have Inline::Tcl yet
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12:21 [Coke] moritz: I feel slightly guilty about that.
12:22 * masak .oO( "you're the one who didn't do it!" )
12:22 yoleaux 18 Mar 2017 14:16Z <tbrowder> masak: i don't have any old masm on flppies or CD, but i did find this link: <http://www.phatcode.net/downloads.php?id=175>
12:22 yoleaux 18 Mar 2017 14:19Z <tbrowder> masak: but i did find two old CDs (Dr. Dobbs 1988-2001 and C/C++ Journal 1990-2002) which i need to look at low-level because the old search box doesn't work on WIndows...i'll try on my Linux box
12:22 masak tbrowder: thanks
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12:26 DrForr .tell tbrowder Thanks for the feature request; I think it's a bit more appropriate for the Perl6::Lint that I haven't built yet - At least I don't really intend that ::Tidy should do anything other than play with whitespace.
12:26 yoleaux DrForr: I'll pass your message to tbrowder.
12:27 tbrowder masak: you're very welcome. i think that link may have been mentioned by you or someone else in the OP. does that link have what you need?
12:27 yoleaux 12:26Z <DrForr> tbrowder: Thanks for the feature request; I think it's a bit more appropriate for the Perl6::Lint that I haven't built yet - At least I don't really intend that ::Tidy should do anything other than play with whitespace.
12:28 DrForr Sorry, didn't know you were around :)
12:28 timotimo m: multi sub test(False) { say "oh" }
12:28 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «Potential difficulties:␤    Literal values in signatures are smartmatched against and smartmatch with `False` will always fail. Use the `where` clause instead.␤    at <tmp>:1␤    ------> 3multi sub test(False7⏏5) { say "oh" }␤»
12:28 timotimo hmm. not so sure i like that
12:29 IOninja heh
12:29 IOninja Why not?
12:30 timotimo can't put my finger on it, but perhaps i'd just like literals in signatures to be eqv'd or something ... but that's quite iffy in its own right
12:30 tbrowder I just came on monitoring. Thanks for considering that and putting it with ::Lint makes perfect sense (i still think rakudo should warn about it).
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12:32 masak tbrowder: it does not (but still an interesting resource). someone eventually pointed me to the program I was looking for: http://www.cs.nyu.edu/~yap/​classes/machineOrg/helppc/
12:32 IOninja timotimo: ATM literals in signatures are just sugar for `where $literal`
12:32 DrForr I've got a few of my own I should add - You can add semicolons inside lists unintentionally (because they're multidimensional) and throw off list walking. $foo.append( call(); ) # Doesn't warn because it's a valid 2-D slice (I'm guessing) but it still looks like a tyop to me.
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12:33 timotimo mhm
12:33 masak IOninja: "at the moment"? isn't that what they are supposed to be sugar for, long-term?
12:34 timotimo i think he's assuming i want to change things
12:34 masak I think I might agree with timotimo's sentiment that smartmatching doesn't give us a lot in this particular case
12:34 masak like, if a small exception were made for `False` in a signature, everyone would be happier :)
12:34 * IOninja wonders when did "at the moment" start to mean "this will get changed soon"
12:35 timotimo hah
12:35 IOninja Exceptions suck.
12:35 masak frankly, I didn't even think of the consistency involved here
12:35 masak IOninja: yes, I would agree in general
12:35 masak IOninja: would an exception suck *in this case*, though?
12:35 masak or would it just allow one more thing in Perl 6?
12:35 Unavowed Isn't the more fundalental question whether False ~~ False should be False though?
12:35 masak m: say False ~~ False
12:35 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «Potential difficulties:␤    Smartmatch against False always fails; if you mean to test the topic for truthiness, use :!so or *.not or !* instead␤    at <tmp>:1␤    ------> 3say False ~~ 7⏏5False␤False␤»
12:36 masak m: my $f = False; say False ~~ $f
12:36 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «False␤»
12:36 masak Unavowed: I think it was settled long ago that it isn't and shouldn't be
12:37 masak Unavowed: because you want to do smarmatches like `$value ~~ &some-check`, where `$value` gets passed to `&some-check` and the resulting boolean is used as the match result
12:37 IOninja masak: the thing isn't disallowed at the moment. `Bool:D $ where .not` isn't much longer than `False`, but the Exception will add one more things for all programmers to remeber "literals are just sugar for where... EXCEPT FOR Bools"...
12:37 masak so the exception here for signatures would mean *not* smartmatching, but checking True or False for equality
12:37 masak I dunno, maybe it's a bad idea
12:37 Unavowed masak: I see
12:38 masak the ghost of jnthn just visited me and yelled at me for thinking of slowing down the sigbinder path :P
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12:47 raschipi If people come here asking for a newer version in Debian, the easiest way to explain to them is that they should be running Debian 9 with the version from 'experimental'. There's 2017.02 there.
12:48 Cabanossi joined #perl6
12:48 IOninja hah
12:48 El_Che raschipi: Can most users fix the unstable/experimental breakage?
12:49 raschipi I haven't found any breakage fron installing rakudo from experimental.
12:49 raschipi About unstable breakage, most debian developers do recommend it.
12:50 raschipi It breaks much less than other rolling release distros.
12:51 timotimo i used to use debian sid for a long time :P
12:51 El_Che timotimo: we all did before ubuntu :)
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12:52 timotimo i did long after ubuntu
12:52 raschipi I can't stand Ubuntu.
12:52 El_Che although I remember some brave struggles to get X unbroken after sid upgrades
12:53 raschipi I try Ubuntu every year and I give up after a week.
12:53 raschipi Well, it will break, it's only a matter of time. Such is the life on the edge.
12:54 El_Che raschipi: yeah I've seen plenty of breakage in Ubuntu non-LTS. I remember the pulseaudio days
12:55 raschipi Just keep backups and all will be well.
12:55 El_Che I think that on the Desktop I have ran Red Hat, Mandrake, Debian stable/testing/unstable, Libranet, Progeny, Xubuntu and Ubuntu
12:55 El_Che lots of good memories of Libranet.
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13:00 raschipi Every time I try Ubuntu I break it because I try something they don't want me to do.
13:01 El_Che besides unity and newer packages compared to stable, I don't see that much difference
13:03 raschipi It's different under the hood. For example, Ubuntu has a package called 'ubuntu' which will tie the system togheter, but make it inflexible. It will also force you to upgrade components.
13:04 raschipi As long as one doesn't try to change things under the hood, Ubuntu is better, I agree.
13:05 El_Che raschipi: most of the time I remove what I want, including those meta packages
13:06 El_Che it's not more than that: a meta package that can be remove without consequences
13:06 El_Che ubuntu-desktop and the like
13:08 El_Che raschipi: If I wanted to provide debian packages, stable is easy. I would I provide packages for testing or sid as they are always moving?
13:08 raschipi Are you in the Debian Perl6 team?
13:08 El_Che raschipi: I build packages by creating a Docker base image of the OS in question and than running this: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pk​g/blob/master/bin/run_pkgrakudo.pl
13:09 raschipi Or trying to provide another package?
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13:09 El_Che raschipi: no, I create stand-alone pkgs in /opt/rakudo without touching the base system
13:10 El_Che raschipi: the idea if to have up to date pkgs for my containers without waiting (nor breaking) on Ubuntu or CentOS updates (they have years-old versions)
13:10 timotimo i used to be a rpm-hater, but nowadays i'm on fedora and i'm happy
13:10 El_Che raschipi: it's fpm under the hood: https://github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pk​g/blob/master/docker/pkg_rakudo.sh
13:11 El_Che timotimo: we use CentOS 7 at work
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13:11 El_Che timotimo: I use Ubuntu at home
13:11 raschipi El_Che: you sure you need the container? Static linking not enough?
13:11 El_Che timotimo: hence those packages
13:11 timotimo right
13:11 raschipi Can perl6 be built statically linked?
13:11 El_Che raschipi: I don't need a container. It just makes it dead easy and clean
13:12 timotimo depends on how you interpret "statically linked"
13:12 El_Che I thought not
13:12 timotimo you can create a moarvm that has libmoar inside it
13:12 timotimo but rakudo still needs the extops and those are dynamically loaded
13:12 raschipi I want even libc in there.
13:12 El_Che raschipi: all the deps are in /opt/rakudo (put their by nqp, moarvm and rakudo's build process)
13:13 raschipi If it's all bundled, what is breaking?
13:13 El_Che so, far, nothing. But I only have centos and ubuntu packages.
13:13 El_Che in theory, debian sid could change libc and break stuff
13:14 El_Che that doesn not happen with releases soft like ubuntu, centos or debian stable
13:14 raschipi So, to answer your question about how to make it work despite the system changing: bundle everything.
13:14 timotimo i found out by a long process of unfruitful investigation and research that you can't dynamically load something that's not on the filesystem
13:14 timotimo ... >:(
13:14 El_Che I think the debian people are doing a fine job for sid, so those that run sid are OK
13:15 El_Che stable and testing is different
13:15 raschipi I think they didn't upload the version on sid to the frozen Stretch on purpose. To not release rakudo as stable.
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13:29 robertle raschipi: of course that means the next stable will have 2016.12-1, so I don't think that shields users from unstable software ;)
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13:34 cygx o/
13:34 cygx IOninja: re documentation for the open modes, cf https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​36f773eb010df7c6b8bf0d431d209537a6061d15 and https://perl6advent.wordpress.com/201​5/12/06/day-6-on-opening-files-and-co​ntributing-to-open-source-projects/
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13:35 cygx on an unrelated note, string operations appear to have gotten slower, cf https://gist.github.com/cygx/9c94eefdf​6300f726bc698655555d73b#file-graph-md
13:36 raschipi robertle: At least they're not pretending to support it.
13:39 raschipi They'll upload the packages to sid in April or March, after Stretch is released.
13:40 raschipi Then it will be a seamless experience in Debian.
13:41 SmokeMachine m: use Test; my @a = <1 2 3>, <a b c>, <x y z>; is infix:<X>(<1 2 3>, <a b c>, <x y z>), infix:<X>(|@a) # should it have the same result?
13:41 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «not ok 1 - ␤␤# Failed test at <tmp> line 1␤# expected: '1 2 3 a b c x y z'␤#      got: '1 a x 1 a y 1 a z 1 b x 1 b y 1 b z 1 c x 1 c y 1 c z 2 a x 2 a y 2 a z 2 b x 2 b y 2 b z 2 c x 2 c y 2 c z 3 a x 3 a y 3 a z 3 b x 3 b y 3 b z 3 c x 3 c y 3 …»
13:42 SmokeMachine this is one of the whys it isn't true:
13:42 IOninja cygx: thanks.
13:42 SmokeMachine m: use Test; is [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail, [X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>)
13:42 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in sub is at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/share/pe​rl6/sources/C712FE6969F786C9380D643…»
13:43 SmokeMachine sorry
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13:45 SmokeMachine strange...
13:46 IOninja m: use Test; is-deeply [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail, [X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>)
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in sub is-deeply at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-1/shar​e/perl6/sources/C712FE6969F786C9…»
13:46 SmokeMachine m: say (@ = [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>))
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:46 IOninja m: [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: ( no output )
13:46 SmokeMachine m: say [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
13:46 SmokeMachine m: say [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail ~~ Fail
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared name:␤    Fail used at line 1␤␤»
13:46 IOninja m: dd <1 2 3> X <a b c>
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «((IntStr.new(1, "1"), "a"), (IntStr.new(1, "1"), "b"), (IntStr.new(1, "1"), "c"), (IntStr.new(2, "2"), "a"), (IntStr.new(2, "2"), "b"), (IntStr.new(2, "2"), "c"), (IntStr.new(3, "3"), "a"), (IntStr.new(3, "3"), "b"), (IntStr.new(3, "3"), "c")).Seq␤»
13:46 SmokeMachine m: say [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail ~~ Failure
13:46 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «False␤»
13:47 IOninja X returns a Seq
13:47 jnthn m: say [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).tail.perl
13:47 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «Seq.new-consumed()␤»
13:47 jnthn m: say [\X](<1 2 3>, <a b c>).perl
13:47 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «(Seq.new-consumed(), Seq.new-consumed()).Seq␤»
13:48 jnthn Wonder what's consuming it
13:48 Cabanossi joined #perl6
13:50 IOninja m: say ([\X] <1 2 3>, <a b c>)[0].perl
13:50 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «((IntStr.new(1, "1"), IntStr.new(2, "2"), IntStr.new(3, "3")),).Seq␤»
13:50 raschipi jnthn: "getting these fixed up and implemented more fully has made it to the top of my todo list", very nice!
13:50 IOninja The second iteration?
13:50 IOninja When it goes to build the triangle result or whatever.
13:50 SmokeMachine should it be always true? [\&any-op](|@arr).tail eqv [&any-op](|@arr) ?
13:51 IOninja Don't think so
13:51 timotimo well, if there's side-effects it depends on which you run first :P
13:53 SmokeMachine IOninja: why?
13:53 IOninja Don't even need side effects
13:53 IOninja m: sub infix:<zz> ($, $) { rand }; dd ([\zz] 1, 2, 3, 4).tail eqv [zz] 1, 2, 3, 4
13:53 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «Bool::False␤»
13:54 SmokeMachine I mean without side effects
13:54 IOninja No side effects above.
13:54 SmokeMachine IOninja: ok...
13:55 jnthn raschipi: Yeah, took a while to get there :)
14:00 SmokeMachine and what about ?
14:00 SmokeMachine m: use Test; my @a = <1 2 3>, <a b c>, <x y z>; is infix:<X>(<1 2 3>, <a b c>, <x y z>), infix:<X>(|@a)
14:00 camelia rakudo-moar 5917b8: OUTPUT: «not ok 1 - ␤␤# Failed test at <tmp> line 1␤# expected: '1 2 3 a b c x y z'␤#      got: '1 a x 1 a y 1 a z 1 b x 1 b y 1 b z 1 c x 1 c y 1 c z 2 a x 2 a y 2 a z 2 b x 2 b y 2 b z 2 c x 2 c y 2 c z 3 a x 3 a y 3 a z 3 b x 3 b y 3 b z 3 c x 3 c y 3 …»
14:02 raschipi jnthn: Any thoughts on making the pipe operators do steps in parallel?
14:02 jnthn Pipe operators?
14:02 jnthn Ah, ==> and friends?
14:03 raschipi yep
14:03 jnthn Ah, thought we call those feed operators... :)
14:03 jnthn Not as part of the hyper/race work; those were intended to set up a producer/consumer workflow
14:04 jnthn Also desirable to get in place, though needs something a bit different to hyper/race
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14:07 raschipi jnthn: Is there a idiomatic way to start a race and then get the results as a promise? Just create it and start the race inside?
14:08 jnthn raschipi: yes, like that
14:08 jnthn Just stick start before it
14:09 jnthn Or .Supply if you want to reactively process the results as they become available
14:11 raschipi I was thinking .race.iterator could return a supply.
14:11 jnthn huh?
14:11 jnthn No :)
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14:11 timotimo you can always .Supply on a HyperSeq, though?
14:11 jnthn Sure
14:12 raschipi I see, it's all building blocks
14:12 raschipi Can't read minds yet.
14:12 timotimo many things can be coerced to Supply, also to Promise the same way
14:12 jnthn Well, it's just that .iterator is part of the Iterable interface, which means it should consistently return soemthing that does Iterator
14:12 timotimo and backwards, too
14:12 jnthn *something
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14:44 grondilu no '-q' (quiet) option?
14:44 IOninja What?
14:44 * grondilu wanted to :.!perl6 in vim and was annoyed by the output
14:46 grondilu (annoyed being a bit excessive of a word, though)
14:46 xtreak joined #perl6
14:46 IOninja What does that do?
14:46 grondilu well, if my line is 'say 2*2;' then I'd like 4, not > say 2*2\n4
14:47 IOninja use -e ?
14:47 grondilu not to mention the "To exit type 'exit' or '^D'"
14:47 jast grondilu: 'perl6 -'
14:48 grondilu jast++
14:48 jast to read program source from STDIN, which suppresses launching the interactive thingy
14:48 Cabanossi joined #perl6
14:51 kjk how can you create an instance of IO::Handler from a file descriptor?
14:52 IOninja Don't think you can.
14:53 geekosaur afaik you can't yet because youy'd need to wrap it in a libuv handle abstraction and that's not exposed
14:53 timotimo the other way around is possible
14:53 jast and if anyone knows, it would be an IO ninja
14:53 timotimo and using NativeCall to use stdlib I/O functions is also possible
14:53 * IOninja is now known as IOn00b
15:00 * IOninja just got stood up
15:00 IOninja By a cable fixing technician!
15:00 IOninja Got all doled up for nothing -_-
15:00 timotimo doled or dolled?
15:00 timotimo i don't think you were wearing bananas?
15:01 IOninja Ah dolled
15:01 timotimo :D
15:01 * IOninja just now realized "dolled up" is about dolls...
15:01 IOninja Oh well, plenty of techs in the sea!
15:01 jast got all up on the dole?
15:01 jnthn Well, if you got fired from your job 'cus you waited home for the technician, you could say you got doled up... :P
15:02 IOninja heh
15:06 cibs joined #perl6
15:06 [Coke] samcv: https://xkcd.com/1813/
15:07 [Coke] m: say "\x270b\x1f93f"
15:07 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «✋🤿␤»
15:07 * IOninja bets $5 someone somewhere wrote a proposal for that, thanks to XKCD
15:08 [Coke] that's why I mentioned it here, to increase the odds. :)
15:09 IOninja head: error writing ‘standard output’: Connection reset by peer
15:09 IOninja wow, the peer is ruthles
15:10 geekosaur .oO { peerless }
15:10 domidumont joined #perl6
15:13 timotimo aaargh my output is useless :D
15:13 timotimo ("1" => Duration.new(<9187/70831>), "10" => Duration.new(<39421/298962>), "100" => Duration.new(<27121/202455>), "1000" => Duration.new(<70613/528935>), "10000" => Duration.new(<1972819/14197524>), "1001" => Duration.new(<656791/4954136>), "1002" => Duration.new(<11094/85543>), "1003" => Duration.new(<97897/796250>), "1004" => Duration.new(<68377/513774>), "1005" => Duration.new(<321829/2674060>), "1006" =>
15:13 timotimo Duration.new(<54289/445239>), "1007" => Duration.new(<9255/73372>), "1008" => Duration.new(<2669/20677>), "1009" => Duration.new(<4802/35453>), "101" => Duration.new(<113811/903376>), "1010" => Duration.new(<46093/355286>), "1011" => Duration.new(<9707/69673>), "1012" => Duration.new(<177431/1364446>), "1013" => Duration.new(<32837/276840>), "1014" => Duration.new(<43463/328570>), "1015" =>
15:13 timotimo Duration.new(<190463/1454469>), "1016" => Duration.new(<358427/2833790>), [...]
15:13 timotimo whoops, that was a big paste
15:14 [Coke] m: with $*OUT {[==]} # peerless?
15:14 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «Potential difficulties:␤    Useless use of [==] in sink context␤    at <tmp>:1␤    ------> 3with $*OUT {7⏏5[==]} # peerless?␤»
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15:25 IOninja moritz: thinking of it now, this looks wrong to me: https://irclog.perlgeek.de/​perl6/2017-03-14#i_14260302
15:25 IOninja It's not the percentage faster, but percentage of time it takes.
15:26 IOninja 3x faster is different than takes 70% less time.
15:27 IOninja Or, 300% faster is different than takes 70% less time.
15:27 IOninja Looks more impressive too :)
15:30 raschipi It's important to also note economists do it differently, they do it in a way so that a 2% increase will be undone by a 2% decrease, which normally isn't true for the simple definition.
15:30 [Coke] m: 'z').ord # LTA error message?
15:30 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Unexpected closing bracket␤at <tmp>:1␤------> 3'z'7⏏5).ord # LTA error message?␤»
15:30 * IOninja doesn't see the LTA part...
15:30 IOninja Seems quite MTA
15:31 IOninja huggable: LTA
15:31 huggable IOninja, "Less Than Awesome"; antonym: PDG "Pretty Damn Good"
15:31 IOninja Ah, I mean seems quite PDG
15:31 Ven joined #perl6
15:33 [Coke] ) isn't a bracket. :P
15:33 Cabanossi joined #perl6
15:34 IOninja [Coke]: sure it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket
15:34 jnthn Clearly we need support for localizing errors :P
15:34 khw_ joined #perl6
15:34 IOninja :D
15:37 moritz masak: have you seen http://www.jtolds.com/writing/2017/03/whi​teboard-problems-in-pure-lambda-calculus/ ?
15:37 alimon joined #perl6
15:37 IOninja m: "/tmp/file".IO.open.IO::Handle.line
15:37 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «Cannot invoke this object (REPR: P6opaque; NQPMu)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
15:38 IOninja hm, locally I get "no concretization found for IO"
15:38 IOninja 'cause I typoed ::line as .line
15:38 IOninja Oh, nm, I get that on pipe
15:38 IOninja What does that code do? Call method named `IO::Handle`?
15:39 moritz I think it tries to invoke a "Handle" method in class/role IO
15:40 timotimo not quite
15:40 timotimo yeah
15:40 timotimo what moritz said
15:40 zostay abraxxa: thx, i'm looking into the failing tests... Seq caching, meh
15:40 timotimo you use $target.Class::Methodname syntax to reach methods from other parts in the inheritance tree
15:40 IOninja Ah, right. Thanks
15:41 zostay i do notice that Seq.perl may call .cache, which means something just trying to do some debugging could significantly change the behavior of a program
15:42 zostay that seems like a caveat
15:45 IOninja zostay: that's hardly the only thing that creates .cache. $seq[0] does too, for example
15:45 moritz well, the alternative is that debugging it breaks the subsequent iteratio
15:45 moritz n
15:47 zostay moritz: i didn't say it was a bad trade off... but when i have time, i will go check the docs and make sure there's a warning in there about not depending on the cache/not-cached state in code
15:47 zostay i wouldn't want someone thinking they could use seq iteration to make sure something only happened once
15:49 IOninja zostay: the iteration still happens just once, its result is simply cached.
15:49 zostay right
15:49 wamba joined #perl6
15:50 zostay but if some code iterates over the structure more than once expecting the second iteration to fail, that'd be an error in judgement on the part of the dev writing that code
15:51 zostay i'm referring to multiple iterations of the data structure, not the internal iterator
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15:54 IOninja Dying on attempt to iterate again is due to limitation, not a feature. Any code that relies on second iteration dying is buggy IMO
15:56 jnthn But limitation makes it sound like something that might change in the future, which this won't.
15:56 jnthn The "limitation" is the feature, essentially
15:57 jnthn It's how we know we can throw data away
15:58 zostay understood, i'm adding a caveat to Seq that refers to that as a volatile state exposed for optimization, not something to be relied upon for logic
15:59 IOninja Right, I mean limitation of the the thing it's meant to do. You can't iterate again if you're meant to throw away previous data
16:00 jnthn m: my \s = gather { take 1; take 2 }; for s { }; for s { };
16:00 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:00 jnthn m: my \s = gather { take 1; take 2 }; say s.perl; for s { }; for s { };
16:00 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «(1, 2).Seq␤This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:00 jnthn Note that in cases like that it doesn't actually change the behavior
16:01 jnthn Oh, that said...
16:01 zostay i'd say about half of module breakages in the past year due to rakudo changes have been things that previously were handled by lists, but have been optimized to use seqs resulting in code breakage
16:01 jnthn m: my \s = gather { take 1; take 2 }; for s { }; say "here"; for s { };
16:01 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «here␤This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:01 jnthn m: my \s = gather { take 1; take 2 }; say s.perl; for s { }; say "here"; for s { };
16:01 camelia rakudo-moar 86dc99: OUTPUT: «(1, 2).Seq␤This Seq has already been iterated, and its values consumed␤(you might solve this by adding .cache on usages of the Seq, or␤by assigning the Seq into an array)␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
16:01 jnthn Yeah, it can in that way :)
16:01 jnthn And yeah, that's worth noting in the docs
16:06 Geth ¦ doc: zostay++ created pull request #1253: Caveat about volatile cache state in Seq
16:06 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/pull/1253
16:07 IOninja zostay: why'd you remove «X::Seq::Consumed: part? It's part of that output.
16:07 zostay not in my rakudo
16:08 zostay which i built yesterday
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16:08 IOninja zostay: you're not running the actual example in the code then
16:08 IOninja zostay: also typo here? "call one operations during "
16:08 zostay hmmm
16:12 SmokeMachine IOninja: rephrasing: should it be always true? [\&any-pure-op](|@arr).tail eqv [&any-pure-op](|@arr) ?
16:13 zostay thx IOninja, fixed
16:13 IOninja SmokeMachine: Why are you asking?
16:13 SmokeMachine IOninja: to create more tests to [&op] and [\&op]
16:14 IOninja I don't like answering "always true" questions, because it relies on ability to think of all possible cases. It's like asking "can you prove unicorns don't exist"
16:14 IOninja SmokeMachine: well, you're not gonna test an infinite amount of ops. So your question is inaccurate.
16:14 perlpilot .oO( first define "unicorn" and "exists" )
16:15 IOninja SmokeMachine: I'd answer "probably" :)
16:15 SmokeMachine IOninja: Im asking to know if any tests I would write assuming that would be true...
16:15 SmokeMachine IOninja: ok, that's enough... :)
16:16 SmokeMachine another question: and, should infix:<X>(<1 2 3>, <a b c>) be equal to my @a = <1 2 3>, <a b c>; infix:<X>(|@a) ?
16:17 IOninja No idea.
16:17 IOninja Ah, likely not
16:17 IOninja 'cause Array would containerize those inner lists
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16:18 IOninja m: dd infix:<X>(<1 2 3>, <a b c>)
16:18 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «((IntStr.new(1, "1"), "a"), (IntStr.new(1, "1"), "b"), (IntStr.new(1, "1"), "c"), (IntStr.new(2, "2"), "a"), (IntStr.new(2, "2"), "b"), (IntStr.new(2, "2"), "c"), (IntStr.new(3, "3"), "a"), (IntStr.new(3, "3"), "b"), (IntStr.new(3, "3"), "c")).Seq␤»
16:18 IOninja m: dd infix:<X>($<1 2 3>, $<a b c>)
16:18 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «((Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil), (Nil, Nil)).Seq␤»
16:18 IOninja m: dd infix:<X>($(<1 2 3>), $(<a b c>))
16:18 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(($(IntStr.new(1, "1"), IntStr.new(2, "2"), IntStr.new(3, "3")), $("a", "b", "c")),).Seq␤»
16:18 IOninja mhm
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: 27ea16c5c6 | (Sterling Hanenkamp)++ | doc/Type/Seq.pod6
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: Caveat about volatile cache state in Seq
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/27ea16c5c6
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: 912ea75cfb | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Seq.pod6
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: Merge pull request #1253 from zostay/seq-cache-caveat
16:18 Geth ¦ doc:
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: Caveat about volatile cache state in Seq
16:18 Geth ¦ doc: review: https://github.com/perl6/doc/commit/912ea75cfb
16:19 SmokeMachine IOninja: thats why im asking!
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16:19 SmokeMachine and thats being used on [\X]...
16:20 IOninja Right, it's the containerization thing I mentioned in the ticket
16:20 IOninja So here's the case where it's actually causing a real big difference and the original suggestion that stuff should deconted is more valid.
16:21 IOninja I think :)
16:21 IOninja The .map({nqp::decont($_)}) thing I mentioned yesterday. Pop it somewhere in there.
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16:21 SmokeMachine yes, but if I do that...
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16:22 IOninja But that also means you should have tests that test [\X] |@a is different from [\X] <1 2 3>, <a b c>
16:22 SmokeMachine m: my @a = <a b c> X <1 2 3>; say @a X <x y z>
16:22 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(((a 1) x) ((a 1) y) ((a 1) z) ((a 2) x) ((a 2) y) ((a 2) z) ((a 3) x) ((a 3) y) ((a 3) z) ((b 1) x) ((b 1) y) ((b 1) z) ((b 2) x) ((b 2) y) ((b 2) z) ((b 3) x) ((b 3) y) ((b 3) z) ((c 1) x) ((c 1) y) ((c 1) z) ((c 2) x) ((c 2) y) ((c 2) z) ((c 3) x) ((c…»
16:23 IOninja m: use nqp; my @a = <a b c> X <1 2 3>; say @a.map({nqp::decont($_)}) X <x y z>
16:23 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(((a 1) x) ((a 1) y) ((a 1) z) ((a 2) x) ((a 2) y) ((a 2) z) ((a 3) x) ((a 3) y) ((a 3) z) ((b 1) x) ((b 1) y) ((b 1) z) ((b 2) x) ((b 2) y) ((b 2) z) ((b 3) x) ((b 3) y) ((b 3) z) ((c 1) x) ((c 1) y) ((c 1) z) ((c 2) x) ((c 2) y) ((c 2) z) ((c 3) x) ((c…»
16:23 SmokeMachine brb
16:23 * IOninja shrugs
16:23 IOninja m: use nqp; my @a = <a b c> X <1 2 3>; say |@a.map({nqp::decont($_)}) X <x y z>
16:23 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «((a a a b b b c c c x) (a a a b b b c c c y) (a a a b b b c c c z) (a a a b b b c c 3 x) (a a a b b b c c 3 y) (a a a b b b c c 3 z) (a a a b b b c 2 c x) (a a a b b b c 2 c y) (a a a b b b c 2 c z) (a a a b b b c 2 3 x) (a a a b b b c 2 3 y) (a a a b b …»
16:24 IOninja dunno if that's the right way to do it or not :)
16:25 * IOninja &
16:26 SmokeMachine IOninja: I think the biggest problem is that [\minmax] is working, but [\X] isn't... minmax and X has different comportaments...
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16:49 timotimo .u combining
16:49 yoleaux U+0300 COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT [Mn] (◌̀)
16:49 yoleaux U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT [Mn] (◌́)
16:49 yoleaux U+0302 COMBINING CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT [Mn] (◌̂)
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17:09 [Coke] what is rakudobrew for "get me the latest commit on rakudo" ?
17:09 [Coke] (do I actually have to know that commit id?)
17:10 timotimo rakudobrew will just build latest rakudo
17:10 timotimo just not latest nqp and moarvm
17:10 [Coke] ah, ok. danke.
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17:11 IOninja rakudobrew build nom
17:11 IOninja and rakudobrew switch nom if you've previously switched to another commit
17:13 [Coke] and how to get past the recent moar change that changed one of the 3rdparty libs? Nuke seems to be for installed versions, this is an issue in the git checkout
17:14 timotimo i wish i had gone about that differently :\
17:14 timotimo if you're in there, just rm -rf 3rdparty/libtommath and git pull
17:15 [Coke] turns out rakudobrew nuke moar-nom DID work.
17:15 timotimo oh good
17:21 IOninja zoffix@VirtualBox:~$ perl6 -e '$ = shell(:out, "yes | head -n 100000").out.lines'
17:21 IOninja head: write error: Connection reset by peer
17:21 IOninja head: write error
17:21 IOninja Wonder what's that about. Doesn't happen all the time and doesn't happen with `perl6` outputting 100000 lines
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17:22 IOninja .oO( unless `perl6`'s error gets silenced one way or another )
17:23 IOninja buffer somewhere someplace gets filled and rejects more input? Is that normal?
17:30 IOninja RAKUDO_DEFAULT_READ_ELEMS=2000000 doesn't fix it.
17:30 * IOninja shrugs
17:31 [Coke] m: WrapHandle
17:31 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared name:␤    WrapHandle used at line 1␤␤»
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17:36 * [Coke] opens https://github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1254
17:37 IOninja Filed it as https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=131026
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18:01 IOninja We can throw typed exceptions from MoarVM somehow, can we? Like `nqp::open` throws and I'd like to differentiate what it throws (e.g. being able to know when the throwage happened due to exclusive mode turned on and file already existing)
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18:02 * IOninja is relieved no one is asking about the IO Action Report that was promised to be delivered 2 days ago :)
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18:29 perlpilot IOninja: Where's the blog post with the reasonable-ish excuses?   ;-)
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18:42 IOninja perlpilot: instead of it, I'm working to finish the report instead :P
18:43 IOninja No, excuses. Just found more to write in than I expected.
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18:43 IOninja It's 9 pages long and I'm yet to rake through newio and CatPath stuff
18:44 IOninja 9 pages long so far, I mean.
18:44 IOninja And I'm gonna deliver like ~ Tue, Wed.
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18:54 DrForr Wonder if I shouldn't stump for a grant for the Perl6::{Parser,Tidy} stuff.
18:59 perlpilot IOninja++  keep up the good work
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18:59 perlpilot DrForr++ you too! ;)
19:02 DrForr Thanks. Same to IOninja :)
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19:14 unclechu guys, is there any way to choose between `int32` or `int64` depending by system?
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19:24 IOninja Weird that only the first one's broken: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet​/e810c961eb0964a311e2e985e1b24d6b
19:24 IOninja .readchars() on a :bin handle
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19:28 timotimo unclechu: NativeCall has a "long" type
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19:40 IOninja Anyone with a recentish JVM build? Can you try if this still gives False? my $f = "foo"; spurt($f,"a"); my $h = open($f); my $s = $h.Supply(:size(1),:bin); my $x; $s.tap( { $x = $_ } ); $h.close; my $y = Buf[uint8].new(ord "a"); say $x; say $y; say $x eqv $y
19:40 IOninja And if it does, whether this gives False as well: my $f = "foo"; spurt($f,"a"); my $h = open($f, :bin); my $s = $h.Supply(:size(1),:bin); my $x; $s.tap( { $x = $_ } ); $h.close; my $y = Buf[uint8].new(ord "a"); say $x; say $y; say $x eqv $y
19:43 IOninja Eh.
19:44 * IOninja builds one :)
19:44 IOninja Oh, turns out I already have one built. In "judo" dir :)
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19:45 IOninja And the answer is: both give False (on 2016.10)
19:47 IOninja Which is really damn weird: https://gist.github.com/zoffixznet​/f714072a07c4c98b42adacb5125719be
19:48 * lizmat starts working on the Perl 6 Weekly
19:49 lizmat lemme know if I'm about to miss something
19:50 IOninja lizmat: if this commit makes it into the news; AlexDaniel++ spotted the issue and how to fix it; I merely typed it up: https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/​935231c13b95dc303ac92a9e583e2c995aa14bc4
19:50 lizmat IOninja++ AlexDaniel++  :-)
19:53 RabidGravy does anyone know of any software that does server sent events as part of the way it works, like CouchDB with db changes?
19:54 IOninja r: dd buf8 eqv Buf[uint8] # reason for JVM's weirdness above
19:54 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «Bool::True␤»
19:54 camelia ..rakudo-jvm fb4f16: OUTPUT: «Bool::False␤»
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19:56 IOninja and that's https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=128041 if anyone wanna tackle it
19:57 lizmat IOninja++   # good catch on 86dc997cc292d2646a74a05
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19:57 raschipi RabidGravy: you want a client to subscribe to be notified of db changes?
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19:58 RabidGravy no, I want to see how some other server application behaves, the spec says to *avoid* chunked data, but couchdb seems to sent chunked data
19:59 RabidGravy well when I say "seems", it does send chunked data
20:00 raschipi You want to be notified when anything changes in the DB?
20:01 raschipi "tail -f" in a logfile trough SSH?
20:01 lizmat if it were MySQL, I would put a notify on the binlog?
20:04 RabidGravy raschip, no I want to see how some other software than *couchdb* handles the event stream sending
20:05 RabidGravy I know how CouchDB does it
20:06 RabidGravy lizmat, and if it was PostgresSQL I would use the Pg::Notify I made for the purpose ;-)
20:07 RabidGravy but it's the nature of the event stream I am interested in right now, rather than the actual software ;-)
20:10 RabidGravy I've made a noddy longpoll version for CouchDB in Sofa  https://github.com/jonathanstowe/Sofa/​blob/master/lib/Sofa/Database.pm#L102 but I really don't like it at all and want to "fix" H::UA so I can do it properly ;-)
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20:31 daotoad hello all.  I have a question that I hope hasn't been belabored here already
20:31 mcmillhj joined #perl6
20:31 IOninja Ask away.
20:31 daotoad What are the obstacles to building a tool like PAR for Perl6?
20:32 daotoad Being able to build executable bundles would be very nice.
20:32 bjz joined #perl6
20:33 IOninja buggable: eco App::InstallerMaker::WiX
20:33 buggable IOninja, App::InstallerMaker::WiX 'Tool to make basic WiX installers for Perl 6 apps, bundling MoarVM/Rakudo.': https://github.com/jnthn/p6-app-installermaker-wix
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20:33 IOninja daotoad: well, there's that already for Windows. I think the current obstacle is immovability of combiled rakudo.
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20:33 * IOninja presses the timotimo-signal
20:34 IOninja This gets asked frequently. So far, I haven't heard anyone say it's very hard or impossible. Just may be not the most urgent thing to prioriotize
20:34 daotoad Where can I find out about the current windows tool?  Or is it built in?
20:35 samcv https://github.com/jnthn/p6-app-installermaker-wix
20:35 IOninja daotoad: see the link from the bot above
20:35 IOninja Yeah, that.
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20:35 daotoad Wix installermaker?  Sweet.
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20:39 daotoad It's a priority for me.  Where would I look to learn more about relocatability issues in Rakudo?
20:39 IOninja daotoad: dunno, try hunting down timotimo. He's the last one I recall working in that area.
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20:40 daotoad Excellent.  Thanks.
20:41 daotoad From wix installer README: please consider this tool free as in "puppy".
20:42 [Coke] mst might have some patches lurking from his time getting rakudo installable via cpan.
20:42 timotimo uh oh
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20:43 timotimo oh, right
20:43 IOninja daotoad: it was made like 6 days ago :)
20:43 timotimo i was the last unfortunate soul to attempt to bundle some resources into one executable along with moarvm
20:44 AlexDaniel but moarvm is movable, right?
20:44 timotimo aye
20:44 timotimo WiX will not give you the application as a single .exe file, it makes an installer that installs a full rakudo + your application and dependencies into a folder in a path of your choice
20:45 timotimo "your" being "you who creates the installer"
20:45 timotimo because, again, non-movable rakudo
20:45 timotimo i believe nine made considerable progress with movable CompUnitRepos
20:46 daotoad So if I wanted to start helping to make rakudo movable, where do I start?
20:47 timotimo hm, let's see
20:47 timotimo one part of the problem is that we have paths in our .bat files
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20:48 timotimo after that we could have a look what else needs changed
20:48 timotimo by looking at the error messages we get :)
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20:49 IOninja daotoad: The source is at https://github.com/rakudo/rakudo https://github.com/perl6/nqp and https://github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM
20:50 thundergnat o/ #perl6.
20:50 IOninja Not sure how much use they'd be, but there are also some articles on perl6.party (search for "Core" in titles)
20:50 timotimo why not first try it with the .msi?
20:51 daotoad Ideally, I would like to be able to target Macs
20:51 daotoad So a general solution is best
20:51 thundergnat Is there anyone handy that has Inline::Perl5 installed that could test run a snippet for me? I want to make sure I haven't shot myself in the foot first before filing a bug report.
20:52 thundergnat https://gist.github.com/thundergna​t/1ab3e9c3db4fe4c67ecbd7864b4e62cc
20:53 thundergnat For some reason, using a module from Perl5 disables 'next' on my system.
20:53 daotoad I don't mind if the road is long, as long as I can get there eventually.  Nice concrete steps like, review bat files (and presumably shell scripts) for embedded paths are exactly what I need to start
20:54 IOninja thundergnat: what perl6 version you got?
20:54 thundergnat This is Rakudo version 2017.03-6-g88aa78c built on MoarVM version 2017.03
20:54 thundergnat implementing Perl 6.c.
20:54 IOninja .oO( everyone's on dev commits... )
20:55 lizmat $ perl6 thundergnat
20:55 lizmat 135
20:55 thundergnat Nope. :-) mine is a tagged release.
20:55 daotoad signing off for now.  Thanks for the pointers!
20:55 IOninja thundergnat: except it isn't :)
20:55 IOninja thundergnat: I can repro on 2017.02-186-g9da6de4
20:56 lizmat thundergnat: next in Perl 6 is just a sub
20:56 thundergnat lizmat Sigh. I get "Useless use of constant value next in sink context (line 3) 12345" here.
20:56 lizmat so if you export a sub called "next", it will take that
20:56 raschipi I'm not on a dev commit...
20:56 dwarring is there any direct way of getting a
20:56 thundergnat When running that above gist.
20:56 IOninja hm
20:56 IOninja thundergnat: and on 2017.03-8-gbfbe429
20:56 dwarring ... native shaped array from Buf/Blob?
20:57 lizmat hmmm... perhaps this depends on the Perl 5 version being used ?
20:57 * IOninja builds HEAD
20:57 lizmat 5.20.0 for me
20:57 IOninja maybe. Mine's perlbrewed v5.24.0) built for x86_64-linux-multi
20:57 thundergnat lizmat. Possibly, my p5 version is 5.18
20:57 IOninja thundergnat: what OS are you on?
20:58 thundergnat linux Mint
20:58 IOninja Anyone else on OSX who can try it?
20:59 lizmat I just did  :-)
20:59 IOninja Hence the "else". thundergnat and I are on Linux and have the bug; you're on OSX and don't got it
20:59 IOninja :)
21:00 lizmat ah, ok  :-)
21:00 * lizmat should focus more on P6W  :-)
21:01 thundergnat Well, it seems like it isn't just me. I'll file an issue report. Thanks.
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21:04 dwarring question on Blobs vs native shaped arrays
21:04 IOninja dwarring: don't see any
21:04 dwarring m: my uint8 @a[2;4] = 1..4, 5..8; my buf8 $b .= new(@a); say $b
21:04 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «Buf[uint8]:0x<01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08>␤»
21:04 IOninja dwarring: though Buf got AT-POS implemented
21:04 IOninja m: dd buf8.new(1, 2, 3, 56, 67, 7, 3)[^4]
21:04 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(1, 2, 3, 56)␤»
21:04 IOninja So you use that?
21:05 dwarring but  no inverse?
21:05 IOninja Definite no reverse for that; since you flattened it :)
21:05 dwarring m: my uint8 @b[2;4] = buf8.new(1..8);
21:05 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «Assignment to array with shape 2 4 must provide structured data␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
21:05 IOninja m: my uint8 @b[2;4] = |buf8.new(1..8)[2;4]
21:05 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «X::Assignment::ToShaped exception produced no message␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
21:06 IOninja heh
21:06 dwarring ^ can't see any quick way of doing the inverse
21:08 timotimo you can probably assign to .values
21:08 raschipi m: say my uint8 @b[2;4] = buf8.new(1..8).rotor: 3;
21:08 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «[[1 2 3 0] [4 5 6 0]]␤»
21:08 dwarring m: my uint8 @b[2;4]; @b.values = buf8.new(1..8); say @b
21:08 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «Cannot modify an immutable Seq␤  in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1␤␤»
21:08 * dwarring would be nice
21:09 jnthn Z=
21:09 IOninja m: say my uint8 @b[2;4] Z= buf8.new(1..8)
21:09 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8)␤»
21:09 IOninja m: dd my uint8 @b[2;4] Z= buf8.new(1..8)
21:09 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).Seq␤»
21:09 IOninja m: dd my uint8 @b[2;4] Z= buf8.new(1..8); dd @b
21:09 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).Seq␤array[uint8].new(:shape(2, 4), [1, 2, 3, 4], [5, 6, 7, 8])␤»
21:09 timotimo makes sense, yeah
21:09 IOninja jnthn++ cool
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21:09 dwarring jnthn: handy to know thanks
21:10 jnthn I tend to read Z= as "pour into" :)
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21:13 raschipi I can see it: http://thumb1.shutterstock.com/display_p​ic_with_logo/83533/83533,1269773208,8/st​ock-photo--honey-pouring-into-spoon-isol​ated-on-white-background-49707457.jpg
21:18 kill_me joined #perl6
21:18 kill_me what is the p6 way to do something like Foo::Bar::qux()?  i keep getting 'qux' not defined.
21:20 IOninja kill_me: what's qux?
21:21 kill_me It's just a sub-routine.
21:21 IOninja kill_me: does it have 😿`our` before it?
21:21 IOninja our sub meows {…}
21:22 * IOninja kills kill_me
21:22 kill_me ah, that did it.  thank-you.
21:22 IOninja No problem. By default subs are lexically scoped and so aren't accessible from outside using the syntax you've used.
21:24 kill_me This is just way different than perl5 and I have too many years of perl5 brain damage to overcome.
21:25 IOninja Heh. Yeah, Perl 6 is basically another language.
21:26 AlexDaniel huggable: perl5
21:26 huggable AlexDaniel, nothing found
21:26 AlexDaniel huggable: perl5 :is: Heh. Yeah, Perl 6 is basically another language.
21:26 huggable AlexDaniel, Added perl5 as Heh. Yeah, Perl 6 is basically another language.
21:26 AlexDaniel huggable: perl5 :is: Heh. Yeah, Perl 6 is basically another language.
21:26 huggable AlexDaniel, Added perl5 as Heh. Yeah, Perl 6 is basically another language.
21:27 mcmillhj joined #perl6
21:29 IOninja .oO( everyone just loves quoting me... )
21:29 kill_me i might be back.  thanks for the help.
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21:54 lizmat and another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: https://p6weekly.wordpress.com/2017​/03/20/2017-12-how-to-race-a-hyper/
22:03 Cabanossi joined #perl6
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22:07 IOninja lizmat++ good weekly
22:10 AlexDaniel :O
22:10 AlexDaniel I cannot believe that we may possibly get working hyper/race in the near future :O
22:11 AlexDaniel awesome news
22:11 AlexDaniel that being said… it talks about 6.d?
22:11 lizmat AlexDaniel: we already have 6.d.PREVIEW
22:11 lizmat m: use 6.d.PREVIEW; say $*PERL
22:11 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>␤Undeclared routine:␤    use used at line 1␤␤»
22:12 lizmat que?
22:12 AlexDaniel m: use v6.d.PREVIEW; say $*PERL
22:12 camelia rakudo-moar 0c6281: OUTPUT: «Perl 6 (6.d)␤»
22:12 lizmat yeah, v  :-)
22:12 TEttinger joined #perl6
22:12 lizmat still an LTA message
22:12 AlexDaniel that I know, but does it mean we will still have broken hyper/race unless you use v6.d.PREVIEW ?
22:13 lizmat we could possibly have some API breakage
22:13 lizmat so 6.d appears to be needed
22:13 * AlexDaniel adds use v6.d.PREVIEW; to all of his source files…
22:14 AlexDaniel lizmat: that kinda makes sense. Anyway, we'll see how it goes
22:14 eater joined #perl6
22:14 lizmat hmmm... wonder if we should put 'use v6.d.pREVIEW' in roast so that we're sure we're still ok ?
22:15 lizmat or that we should have a generic "use blead" ?
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22:34 jnthn AlexDaniel: With regard to 6.d, all that's really meant in this case is that the 6.d test suite will have hyper/race nailed down pretty well
22:35 jnthn AlexDaniel: Since it's all in method-land, I don't expect a use v6.d.PREIVEW will be needed to get at it
22:35 AlexDaniel okay
22:35 jnthn Just like you don't have to wait to take advantage of all the other stuff done since Christmas 2015, but that hasn't been in an official language release yet :)
22:39 mienaikage joined #perl6
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22:40 timotimo trie, method-based enhancement to a new core setting is ... "fraught" is the word i think :)
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23:29 mienaikage Should 'dd class {} for 0..2' give me a new class each time or no? I can get around it with EVAL, but I'm not sure if it's behaving correctly or not because I don't know any better :P
23:30 timotimo no, should give you the same
23:31 timotimo classes are a compile-time thing, and they are also not closures
23:32 mienaikage Ah okay
23:34 mienaikage Thanks for the info :)
23:34 timotimo sure :)
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